[RESOLVED] A+ debate once and for all...

[RHA7]

Lets get this A+ debate over, once and for all! Those who don't like it, explain why, those who do, do the same. Maybe if we put our heads together we can brainstorm and come up with a new standard and\or certification, instead of petty arguing! Please don't be immature and say A+ is dumb and give no reason!

[Darren Wilson]

A+ & other certifications are only any good if you understand what you are doing. Like others have mentioned, it doesn't make an engineer/technician by what they know as anyone can study enough to pass these exams, but doing something is a different thing. I have certified technicians in my workshop ( in which I am the technical Manager ) and they might be able to talk a good fix or soloution, but when it comes down to it they cannot do it, and muggin's here gets lumbered with the repair/upgrade.

I have nothing against good techs who want to have letters or paper behind them, but having the paper does not mean that you can do the job.

For the record I have no certs behind me ( formally ) but have sailed through the MCSE cd's with flying colours.

[RHA7]

What would you like to see as far as certification goes? Hard exams? A hands on technical exam? Maybe an apprenticeship program? If you had to plan a certification standard what sorts of things would you incorporate?

[ellingtond]

It basically boils down to the fact that no "study the material and take the test" certification is anywhere near as good as old fashion time in the field actually troubleshooting and repairing systems.

A+ or MCSE or whatever, you can compare it to basketball. Fundamentals, no matter how strong, are no match for experience. I could care less about certificates, show me what you have done!

[Macgyver V2]

I'm not going to talk bad about certification, but i do agree with Darren Wilson and ellingtond that books, paper and pencils do not make up for jumping in with both hands and learning how to fix problems.

Personally, I am managing several NT servers and have installed networks ranging from the simple two-person 10baseT to the more complex 30 user 100BaseT networks and I have never had to read or study.

[gnslngr]

Personnally, if one wishes to get certified, the only proper certification comes from hands-on & in training. The CompTia courses at the local community collages in my area require this training prior to the exam. The system here demands that you know what you are doing before awarding an A+ peice of paper to hang in the shop.

[plyrn0m0re@aol.com]

OK. I have worked in multiple computer shops in my years as a technician... I have been working in the fields for approximately 8 years now... One place I worked, I worked with a guy that spent over $10,000 on certifications, including, a+, MCSE, CNA, and 2 other network certifications that I can't remember, and he knew NOTHING about networking! He tried to set up our office network which ran '95 using NetBIOS! He claimed it was the easiest and FASTEST way! I also know a guy, who was a+ certified, and he didn't even know how to install a CD-ROM Driver!! He didn't know how to FDISK, or install a Video Driver!! The only reason why he got hired was his A+ on his resume'. I have NO certifications at all, and have been offered a job at Microsoft.... Just to show you what you can do WITHOUT certifications. I AM NOT telling you NOT to get certifications, b/c I plan on getting MCSE and A+ soon, b/c it looks good on a resume'... but NOTHING will teach you about computers more than in the field, hands on experience... Certifications mean NOTHING anymore...

[alioops]

I am looking at getting some certification now, and the points are interesting.....
I have been playing with computers for about 8 years, currently work as a part time technican in a shop, and am going to school full time for computer support and networking. Even with this, I know that a lot of companies want certification, and the unemployment levels here are high, so it is probably the way I will have to go. It is sort of frustrating, though, to know that someone who can memorize can pass the A+ and get a job over me, because I don't have that piece of paper. Like was said above, it looks good on a resume.... so let the test writing begin....

Alicia

[ellingtond]

Need a job? Move to Raleigh, NC. If you can spell CPU you get $40,000. If you know what it means you get $60,000 and a corner office.

Better yet, do like I do and consult http://www.windrivers.com/cgi-bin/forum/smile.gif

FYI 2% unemployement.

[ReBoot]

Unfortunately most employers don't realize that A+ is a joke, and hire techs because they have it, only to find out later that most A+ techs don't have a clue.
This is changing. Some employers are now looking for experience and track record as conditions of employment, not certifications.
Certainly MCSE and such are demanding, and worthwhile certs to have, but A+ is such a breeze. My daughter (she's 11) just passed the A+ exam, after studying at home in spare time, she got 97% on her first try. Go figure.

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Who needs a life, I have Internet!

[alioops]

*chuckle* http://www.windrivers.com/cgi-bin/forum/smile.gif

and for yours, 18% unemployment, and $6.00 and hour.....*s*
hopefully will one day get a really good job at about $30,000......*sigh*

Alicia

[ellingtond]

So I finally sat down and took some sample A+ tests to confirm my feelings about A+.

Who writes this stuff? There were so many questions I disagreed with, were subjective, or the answers could change based on the situation. Oh sure, the hardware questions and IRQ stuff may have been helpful. But the performance, troubleshooting and customer satisfaction parts were absolutely bogus. What a load of garbage. I worried before about an A+ person lacking knowledge; now I worry that they have been taught wrong.

BTW, the only reason I care is that a friend has been required to get A+ as a condition for promotion.

[gmoney2626]

I just happened to stumble in on this topic and thought i would add my 2 cents. I have been working with computers for about 3 years now. I am currently working on MCSE passed Win95 and Network essentials. I talked with someone that ended up convincing me on taking the A+ test. I found that i was spending more time training myself on the bass ackwards thinking behind some of the troubleshooting, preventative maintenance and the customer satisfaction. As I was studying I couldn't help but think of all the people that rely on this certification as a means of determining someones ability. I found that alot of the books out there used to study this certification was wrong or mistyped. It is bad enough that you have to decide what is going to be the best source to study from but it is really bad when your decision is based on which one has the least mistakes. To top it off when I went to take my test I had a question that in my eyes was completely wrong. The question went along the lines of what do you use to edit registry in Win 95. Selections where 1)edit,com 2)sysedit.com 3)some other obviously wrong answer 4)regedit.com. You would think that if you had to pay over $200 dollars to take a test they would at least give you a question with the right answer.

[ellingtond]

A+ Followup. . . .I did some research and found out that a bunch, (Dozens) of the questions on the training CD I had been given to review were WRONG. Very wrong. Contacted the sales rep, he contacted to developer. . .I was told they are working on a "Major Fix."

[FastHackM]

For the record I am A+ cert, 2 yrs. exp. I agree 100% with Ellington. I bought A+ study software from a company (forgot which one, but it suks!) for $69 and it turned out to be the equivalent of an etch-a-sketch to a chief engineer. It did nothing to prepare me for the test, it was only because I studied ForeFront's material also that I was able to pass it! It is a fact that if you don't know how to do it in the real world, but you have a piece of paper your phony! On the other hand if you know what you are doing, but don't have the paper employers might not take you serious! Ah, but if you know how to do it and have paper on the wall your on the scene! By the way the core portion was tough (I hates 3.1 don't you!)

[ellingtond]

Did you feel like the A+ spent too much effort on old stuff? Dos, Win 3.1, pre-pentium systems?

Not to be a snob, but I go where the money is, if a potential client is using DOS/Win 3.1 and are not calling me because they want all new stuff, I decline the project. I figure if they are still using old stuff to save money, they can't afford me http://www.windrivers.com/cgi-bin/forum/smile.gif

It does seem arrogant, but my first rule is "Don't work for anyone that can't afford you."

But the point is, I don't want to refresh or re-learn junk about pre-pentium systems anyway. Upgrading drives in a 486? Why? Tell them it won't cut y2k and let em bite the bullet. . . .trust me they will thank you later. I think a big problem is most people using older systems don't appreciate how much better new systems really are. . .

Sorry for the rant.

DE

[FastHackM]

I think the old stuff should be phazed out completely in the real world as well as on the tests. I was just watching Pirates of Silicon Valley and I was highly intrigued with the very first computers Apple and IBM built. Then I time warped back to the present and told myself lets get on with it!

[shawnMt]

A+ is CRAP!! Everything said above about bogus questions and insanely wrong training materials is true. My employer forced me to take/pass this joke of a test. About the only thing I got out of it is that the default IRQ for LPT2 is IRQ5. It really did have numerous questions/supposed answers that were just flat wrong. Also be aware that just because it is a published "preparation" book on A+ - it does NOT mean the answers within it are correct. Sad but true... FYI: I did pass both core and Win and I will try to help out with any questions/concerns.
Shawn

s24025@windrivers.net

[ACE]

I think you all are missing the point. I have been in this business for over 10 years. The trends I have noticed are that technicians A+ or not are a dime a dozen. I have several of each working for me now. With the comodization of PCs there is hardly any profit margin left in computers. At the rate it's going you will be able to buy PCs for the cost of a good VCR. Hell, the prices are already in the range of a mid range sound system. If you don't believe me check out www.buy.com or www.onsale.com. Computers are becomming disposable commodities and in the next 5 years will be disposable. I think the industry will be where pagers and cell phones are today in less than 5 years. When was the last time you paid someone to fix a boom box, a pager or cell phones? These were very lucrative industries just a few short years ago. Also with the advances in software technologies the need for MCSE's will also dwindle. Software wizzards will allow even the computer idiot to manage sophisticated networks. Which brings me to my point. If you want to be smart, the money in this industry will be for those who can write code. My advice is learn VB, C++ and Java in that order. If you can muster a reasonable level of proficency in these languages then you can write your own check. And as long as computers exist there will always be a job for those who can make them do what people want them to do. So my advice is if you like this industry and want to remain gainfully employed learn to program or look for a new career field.

[murphy1]

Hello. A little insite from a diffrent field.

I am a journeyman/interprovincial automotive service technition (mechanic). In my field we have to take 4 years of training in 3month stints each year, as well as a minimum of...i think it's 8000 hours practical exsperience, before we can get our ticket.

ok, so i got a ticket. or certification. big deal. there are some guys in my shop with no papers, and they run rings around me. on the other hand i can run rings around some of the guys that have had thier papers for a long time.
I have been working at my own bussiness for the last 3 years, repairing p.c's. I have friends that are I.T's, and others that are just savy about p.c's.

It is thanks to THIS site, that i have as much knowledge that i do( not that it is much mind you)
so what does all of this have to do with a+?

no certificate is worth the paper it is printed on, if the person that holds it didn't work for it and earn it, and as well, that person has to respect what the certificate is suppost to represent,and take pride in his work, but also know that he will never stop learning about his field.

it's just a piece of paper, yes, but you have to believe in it for it to do any good.

[GIG-O-Tech]

ok... I am A+ Certified and in my eyes and the eyes of the customers that come into my shop I am pretty darn quick to troubleshoot/pinpoint a problem in a pc..
the test was the only way I was to get a raise and of course now I have a pretty piece of paper that looks good on the wall.

I agree with the lot of you that said the prep manuals/ cds suck.. the one I used gave wrong interupts for com ports etc etc. Glad to know I knew the truth.

I've learned more on this site than in any manual. If windrivers.com were to go down I'd really be in a pinch (and so would the rest here probably).

Jeremy

[spec-o-tech]

just checking out the comments on the A+ cert stuff and had a funny story. My old boss wanted me to take the A+ coarse for the simple fact our shop could say A+ certified. When I went to the class I ended up having to repair two of the PC's in the training room because the instuctor had no clue. Many of the "facts" he was teaching were just plain wrong. I tried inserting my two cents here and there and was just told I was wrong. I left in the middle of the second class and just prayed that the poor people in there some how get the right info someday.

[pcshark]

I've been working with computers since I was 13, had my own business at 19, and at 25 finally decided I needed to get a certification. Not to show to my employer, because I was my own employer. Rather, I wanted the paper to show to the client. The company I work for today hires a lot of techs without paper because they realize the value of experience over book study. However, they stress certifications because it sells. When we pull a contract for someone like IBM or Bell Atlantic, they look at certs and reach into their pockets. Its as simple as that. For me, the certifications I hold today, in conjunction with my years of experience, show both my employer and the client that I am capable and know what I am doing.
On the other hand, I've worked with paper CNEs who couldn't even install a server or apply patches. I've worked with A+ people who couldn't format a disk in DOS. I think what it all boils down to here is that paper doesn't mean a thing if you don't have the hardcore hands on experience to back it up. And by the way, at the age of 30, I'm one exam away from CNE. I guess that shows where I feel the importance is.

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R. Bret Walker, CNA

[Jesse Hamilton]

Certification is not the be all and end all for sure, however it certainly does have value and is worth working torward. Certification should reflect knowlege. If you know the stuff then the certification will be a joke because you know the material, not because it's worthless. We recently became IBM service authorized, they required me to be A+ certified so I sheduled the two tests, went in and wrote and crushed the test in 25 minutes total for the two. I already know the material, the certification is just the proof. experience+certification=qualified professional. You can be experienced and able, but where is your credibility? When a customer comes in to argue, what puts what you know above what he knows? If you are certified and know what you are doing then you have two feet to stand on. I personally don't worry about all the people who have their A+ or MCSE without anything but book learning, they will get in over their head faster than you can say windows and get fired.

Jesse Hamilton
MCP, A+ Certified
Service Technician
Software City

[total1087]

ACE: Coding isn't the only thing that will get a great job in the next five years. Cisco Certification is. Anyone who reads this - I challenge you to read up on Cisco Certification and come back to me and tell me it's crap. Cisco rigorously certifies its people, and it is **EXTREMELY** hard to become certified. I guess that's why I am going to go get my Cisco Certification http://www.windrivers.com/cgi-bin/forum/smile.gif

Oh, after becoming certified, you aren't a "paper tech". You are the real McCoy, so to speak.

Just my two ¢'s

[madmax2]

to everyone that has debated this topic, good work. my bit of the tale. I am not A+ certified! I come from South Africa where it is just too darn expensive. I was not working in the computing industry before I came to Britain. I had, in my opinion, 'played' around a bit in South Africa with pc's. Came to Britain, thought, yeah, lets try get a job in computing. I was employed after a practical test at one of the major system builders here in London. 2 months later, workshop supervisor, a year down the line, R&D and Workshop manager. No, I still dont have any qualifications. Yes, majority of the people working for me have. Strange thing, I thought I didnt know jack when I first got the job. Now I know everyone else didnt know jack. And in my opinion, majority of people in the workshop/tech support do not deserve to call themselves technicians. I will at some stage get the A+ cert, only to prove a point for myself. My employers realise that the cert. isnt worth the paper it is printed on and I am grateful that they had faith enough in me to give me a job.
Moral of the story: I got lucky to get employed without the certification, but the people that really know the industry also know the certification is rubbish. When I employ new engineers, I do a hands on test, I do not want to look at the c.v. or the qualifications. And that is how I will continue to employ.

[Raze]

personally i have no a+ or mcse, but i have 5 years experience in a technical department. i wish someone would make some sort of certification where u have to have experience, like for the exam have real world problems thrown at u and u have to solve them the proper way, not by a simple multiple choice.
several times, we have sold a simple sound card, asked the customer if they need advice on how to fit it, and be told that an a+ or mcse is going to do it for them. the next day they return the sound card saying that this "certified proffesional" told them that the sound card is faulty. everytime the card has been fine and the guy just didnt know how to install the drivers properly.

thanks

[gizmo1_1]

I have been a technician for 5 years now. I hae owned and operated a computer service center for three. I hire based on experience and their ability to solve real work problems with hands on test. I keep two or three "messed up" pc's in the office at all times and test the potential employee on their speed and accuracy of diagnosis of the problem. It is a crude test, but it usually works. I have only had my A+ for six weeks, to become IBM certified.
A+ looks good to customers. But I firmly believe that a hands on test or training would be good.

[Ballav]

Wow, some of you guys are starting to scare me http://www.windrivers.com/cgi-bin/forum/wink.gif Ya make me feel a bit underqualified and nervous hehe. I've been playing with computers for about ten years, but didn't really like the idea of professionaly coding because people made it sound like data entry. Because of that, I didn't take a career in computers seriously until a couple of years ago when I met my roommate (who is a sysadmin in a mixed NT/UNIX environment). He said that I seemed to know what I was doing, so if I went and got my MCSE, I'd land a job making $30-40k no problem with no experience and no degree... this sounded great to me (G.E.D./college droppout). I was well on my way to becoming a 'paper' MCSE (half way there) and got hired doing tech support for a software company at 30k... I've procrastinated at lot at finishing the MCSE (I guess I'm just a lazy person at heart <G>), but when I finish it, I get a hefty raise. I've also had a lot of companies and friends say that as soon as I get that piece of paper, I'd be hired in a heartbeat. I still plan on getting the certification because of this. I do agree however, that being a 'paper MCSE' is not too useful and will get you in over your head. Luckily, I now have a network to play with at home as well as a test environment at work - believe me, it took me quite a bit of tinkering to _REALLY_ get to the point where my exams said I was. The experience is what counts. Another note - I wouldn't have been hired based on my MCP if I hadn't passed the phone interview for my current job.

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Adam Ball
shadowkil@raptorsden.com
adam_ball@bestsoftware.com

[jhutto]

A+ really isn't that bad. We only have A+ techs, but the first 3-6 months they are just doing leg work and writing things in, until they get there feet wet.

I have seen techs with no certs at all come in and configure a multi server array with several levels of hubs/switches, configure routhers, etc on a 1500 user network, and do it right. But that same tech I'd of payed 2x as much for if he was MCSE.

Same is true for a tech. Someone with A+ at least is scared into ESD protection. A HS kid may make $7-9 but A+ will get ya a buck or two raise.


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Jon Hutto