Political Correctness has gone too far...

[Draggar]

This is not BS, I've been hearing about it since Nov of last year...

<a href="http://www.PetitionOnline.com/flgraise/" target="_blank">http://www.PetitionOnline.com/flgraise/</a>

[EvilCabbage]

I am unsure of what the proposed (or current?) statue looks like, but as long as it is something commited to the memory of the event, and the people that gave their lives, I see no reason that these anal people, with too much damn time on their hands, should go dredging through it to find fault.

My heart goes out to everyone touched by this, and my pity to the people too ignorant to pay their silent respects.

[j-man]

It is going to be a sad day when PC changes history.

Let it go people. We as people need to quit being so caught up in the race issue.

Me... I'm euro-american. ;)

[Mayhem]

The proposed statue depicts one caucasian, one hispanic and one african-american I believe. It was done that way to honor all the firemen and police officers of all races. It is sad that in trying to be "politicly correct" they have managed to make the politicly correct contingent even more angry. Just goes to show that some people are just too stupid to live.

[Draggar]

[quote]Originally posted by *MAYHEM*:
<strong>The proposed statue depicts one caucasian, one hispanic and one african-american I believe. It was done that way to honor all the firemen and police officers of all races. It is sad that in trying to be "politicly correct" they have managed to make the politicly correct contingent even more angry. Just goes to show that some people are just too stupid to live.</strong><hr></blockquote>

But the Iwo Jima statues and pictures don't show different ethnicities, why should this???
If they're going to make a statue, then it should look like that picture. PC shoudn't dictate history, facts should (although those of us who grew up and had schooling in the US knows that doesn't always happen). :rolleyes:

Hmm, lets make the hall of presidents more PC. George Washington can be black, Abraham Lincoln can be Asian... :rolleyes:

[Sowulo]

Altered history? Try reading a novel called "Killing Time" by Caleb Carr....

[Hippie_Tech]

I am of the opinion that this statue was meant to be a representation of a specific event in this Country's history as captured in a specific photograph. To change that image to serve someone's agenda of political correctness is wrong.
Please note that I stated it was my OPINION. I am happy that someone wants to donate a statue to commemorate the tragedy of 9/11, but this was not the "correct" statue. Politically or otherwise.
Why did they feel the need to alter the people in the photograph. Would someone have cried "Foul!" because it depicted real-life people? <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

[NooNoo]

I note that even the PC people seem to exclude those that were in the US first..... Surely it the statue should have a Native American as well, then of course there are the Asian Indians, Chinese etc.

Maybe they should start a project to define the Politically Correct Person (PCP for short), neither male nor female and a coherent mix of the world's facial features and has no attachment to reality. They could put out tenders and waste millions on committees and court time (as there would inevitably suits of one description or another) in an effort to divert attention and funds away from other well thought out public debates.

[Draggar]

[quote]Originally posted by NooNoo:
<strong>Maybe they should start a project to define the Politically Correct Person (PCP for short), neither male nor female and a coherent mix of the world's facial features and has no attachment to reality. They could put out tenders and waste millions on committees and court time (as there would inevitably suits of one description or another) in an effort to divert attention and funds away from other well thought out public debates.</strong><hr></blockquote>

You mean Sprint PCS's new customer service person, Claire?
http://www.sprintpcs.com/hpAssets/claire.gif

:D

[Kymera]

I think it is funny that a memorial, designed to remember an event has to be historically accurate. If they want to base a memorial on a picture taken at the WTC site then I think they can do it. Just because three white firefighters were raising a flag, while their Black, Hispanic, Asian, Native American, Arab, Pacific Islander brothers in arms were rushing into the burning towers while they were playing with a piece of fabric. Should they be remembered more than the people who died? I thought the point of a memorial was to remember an event or those who died.

Personally, I don't care what they do with that memorial. I just consider myself lucky that the terrorists didn't choose a more potent target like the nuclear plants we have all over the area, or release smallpox into the air or Cryptosporidium into the water.

[NooNoo]

[quote]Originally posted by Draggar:
<strong>

You mean Sprint PCS's new customer service person, Claire?
http://www.sprintpcs.com/hpAssets/claire.gif

:D </strong><hr></blockquote>

Claire is quite clearly female and white - nope no good at all.

[Draggar]

[quote]Originally posted by NooNoo:
<strong>

Claire is quite clearly female and white - nope no good at all.</strong><hr></blockquote>

She's supposed to be all ethnicities thown in together. I don't see it too well either.. *shrug*

What about Pat? :D

[Cleetus]

How about Micheal Jackson? Can't really tell what is going on there.

[Commander Klarg]

[quote]Originally posted by Kymera:
<strong>Just because three white firefighters were raising a flag, while their Black, Hispanic, Asian, Native American, Arab, Pacific Islander brothers in arms were rushing into the burning towers while they were playing with a piece of fabric. Should they be remembered more than the people who died? I thought the point of a memorial was to remember an event or those who died.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Not to be picky, but the flag raising in question happened way after the towers had collapsed.

And who cares; why should race make a damn bit of difference when remembering the events of 9-11-2001? The human race lost many innocent people that day, and they should all be remembered, not just White, Black, Asian, etc.

my $0.02...for what it's worth.

[Darren Wilson]

If they are going to alter the 'memorial' from the picture that it is meant to be based on, then they should also include the Police & Medical services into it as well & not just the firefighters. It wasn't just firefighters who got stuck in but the whole spectrum of emergency services.

[jaeger]

I don't care at all if the eventual statue contains a statue of a search dog to commemorate their part in the rescue efforts. But as this statue was based on a real event, its wrong to change any feature of it from what the photograph showed.

Personnally, I believe a structure similar to a war wall should be constructed with the names of each of the victims inscribed. Statues of each service (firefighters, police, emts, etc.) should be placed around the structure (preferably a cube, or even a greatly reduced scale model of the original towerns) facing inwards. These statues should bear the names of those that died on their base. The face of each statue should be obscured to avoid any racial nonsense.

[Mr. Pickles]

[quote]Originally posted by Sowulo:
<strong>Altered history? Try reading a novel called "Killing Time" by Caleb Carr....</strong><hr></blockquote>

Tell me more about this book...

[Mr. Pickles]

[quote]Originally posted by jaeger:
<strong>I don't care at all if the eventual statue contains a statue of a search dog to commemorate their part in the rescue efforts. But as this statue was based on a real event, its wrong to change any feature of it from what the photograph showed.

Personnally, I believe a structure similar to a war wall should be constructed with the names of each of the victims inscribed. Statues of each service (firefighters, police, emts, etc.) should be placed around the structure (preferably a cube, or even a greatly reduced scale model of the original towerns) facing inwards. These statues should bear the names of those that died on their base. The face of each statue should be obscured to avoid any racial nonsense.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Unfortunately, we can't have this. There is a conspiracy theory that many more thousand people died than have been reported. The US is intentionally keeping the number "lower" so that the terrorists don't know exactly how many people they murdered.

Also, where's the love for the Pentagon? And the Penn. plane that crashed? It seems odd that these are frequently left out when mentioning 9/11.

[NooNoo]

[quote]Originally posted by Capt. O:
<strong>
Unfortunately, we can't have this. There is a conspiracy theory that many more thousand people died than have been reported. The US is intentionally keeping the number "lower" so that the terrorists don't know exactly how many people they murdered.

Also, where's the love for the Pentagon? And the Penn. plane that crashed? It seems odd that these are frequently left out when mentioning 9/11.</strong><hr></blockquote>

You mean the deaths weren't on public record? There are families out there not be able to legitimately claim on their insurance because there is no death certificate??

:eek:

[Mr. Pickles]

I didn't say it was my theory.

[Hippie_Tech]

I didn't mean to imply that there shouldn't be cultural diversity in a memorial. I just don't think that it was correct to alter the image of the photograph (one that is now nationally recognizable) to be politically correct. Why does it need to be PC? Why does the photo need to be altered? I understand everyone's point of view that the alteration was intended to honor ALL the firefighters and policemen that were killed during the 9/11 tragedy. My point is why did they feel the need to alter the photo in the first place? Wouldn't it still have represented the event by leaving the original image intact? <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

[Draggar]

[quote]Originally posted by Capt. O:
<strong>Also, where's the love for the Pentagon? And the Penn. plane that crashed? It seems odd that these are frequently left out when mentioning 9/11.</strong><hr></blockquote>

There is already a makeshift memorial in PA where that plane went down.

In the Pentagon, it would be hard to construct a memorial for public viewing, since its concidered military land and the general public may not be allowed there, but I do see your point.

[Kymera]

[quote]Originally posted by Lt. Cmdr Klarg:
<strong>Not to be picky, but the flag raising in question happened way after the towers had collapsed.

And who cares; why should race make a damn bit of difference when remembering the events of 9-11-2001? The human race lost many innocent people that day, and they should all be remembered, not just White, Black, Asian, etc.

my $0.02...for what it's worth.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I'm well aware of the chronology thanks. I lived in NYC and I saw both towers go down, as well as the fireball from the second plane. I hang out with people who made it out alive from the Towers.

My point is simply that people are complaining about the historical accuracy of the memorial. I would be happy with something akin to the memorial for Oklahoma City. Why does there need to be a face associated with the memorial in the first place? Lots of people died that day, and they should be remembered. A model of the old towers with all the names of the dead inscribed, like the Vietman Memorial, would be perfect IMO.

[kato]

[quote]Originally posted by Kymera:
<strong>

I'm well aware of the chronology thanks. I lived in NYC and I saw both towers go down, as well as the fireball from the second plane. I hang out with people who made it out alive from the Towers.

My point is simply that people are complaining about the historical accuracy of the memorial. I would be happy with something akin to the memorial for Oklahoma City. Why does there need to be a face associated with the memorial in the first place? Lots of people died that day, and they should be remembered. A model of the old towers with all the names of the dead inscribed, like the Vietman Memorial, would be perfect IMO.</strong><hr></blockquote>

right on!

[Commander Klarg]

[quote]Originally posted by Kymera:
[QB]

I'm well aware of the chronology thanks. I lived in NYC and I saw both towers go down, as well as the fireball from the second plane. I hang out with people who made it out alive from the Towers.

QB]<hr></blockquote>

Sorry to nitpick; no offense was intended. I can only imagine what it was like to see it in person as opposed to seeing it on CNN. It all seemed surreal to me at the time.

I think making the memorial with the firefighters depicted was intended to imitate the WW2 memorial with the flag raising on Iwo Jima(?), since the photographs of the two events were so similar. But, with our PC environment of today, it has become a controversy.

I am in total agreement with your proposed memorial! :) I think they intended to use a piece of the wreckage to include into a memorial as well.

[Cleetus]

The statue is a piece of art that is only there to represent what the artist wanted to display.

The memorial is an artistic display that pays homage to what has happened while allowing us to remember.

The said picture is a fact of what really happened.

So what if the artist took some liberty in his sculpture? Does the image only make you mad about showing other races in our big melting pot of America? Does it no longer make you remember what happened that day just because you are upset at some utopian agenda to have multiculturalism everywhere while the left has to make a monster arguement about it? Or can you look beyond the fact that the artist changed some faces and see the strength of the flag, the honor of the men, and the fact that American's will not tolerate people hurting our own?

[kato]

[quote]Originally posted by cleetus:
<strong>The statue is a piece of art that is only there to represent what the artist wanted to display.

The memorial is an artistic display that pays homage to what has happened while allowing us to remember.

The said picture is a fact of what really happened.

So what if the artist took some liberty in his sculpture? Does the image only make you mad about showing other races in our big melting pot of America? Does it no longer make you remember what happened that day just because you are upset at some utopian agenda to have multiculturalism everywhere while the left has to make a monster arguement about it? Or can you look beyond the fact that the artist changed some faces and see the strength of the flag, the honor of the men, and the fact that American's will not tolerate people hurting our own?</strong><hr></blockquote>

right on . . . again!

[silencio]

If race is an issue whey don't they put an Arab guy tugging on the flag trying to pull it down?

Monuments are just another part of history. History is just a combination of how things really happened and how we like to remember them.

So, we erect a statue to commemorate the event to illicit feelings of pride and people focus on that and not on the image of peoples dead mangled bodies or the grief of families or the feeling of lost security etc...

I don't like political correctness but there were plenty of black (and italian, hispanic, etc..) firefighters at the scene so why not spread around the glory. They deserve it. We're not really commemorating the raising of a single flag, we're commemorating the reaction of people to a tragic event (and shifting focus away from the tragedy).

The statue also serves society by teaching future generations what it is to be "good" in society by eliciting feelings of pride (pride as a reward for coming to the aid of your fellow man (or woman)) as future onlookers identify with the people in the statue.

The people creating the statue know this, as they know many things, and they will create a statue that a variety of people can identify with and not a statue that some race will look at and say "why isn't my race up there?".

These kinds of things are all around us but most of the time we don't see through them. I'm not going to comment on whether they're good or bad but I lean toward the idea that they're necessary given our frail egos. This necessity is proven most evident in the madness of some drug users as they begin to see through this shell of reality and can be articulated best by Colonel Kurtz's comment from Appocolypse Now, "I hate nothing more than the stench of lies."

Man, I love iced coffee. :D

[Fubarian]

When a memorial is constructed, you do it to how it was -- not what you wish it was or to make people feel better. You do it to remember.

Granted, I think a wall would be more fitting for this event, but if a statue of any kind is made, it should made correctly, period. If it was 3 black guys rising the flag, then thats what the statue should be. If it was 3 mexican guys rising it, then depict it as such, but don't go distorting what happened at that moment. I don't care how you look at it, I don't care what the 'political correct' way is, its not true, so don't go changing reality.

And further more, I could care less about what race the people were that raised it, they were american firefighters, raising a flag after an unspeakable event. That's how I'll remember it, not as '3 white guys' raising a flag.

[Sowulo]

[quote]Originally posted by Capt. O:
<strong>

Tell me more about this book...</strong><hr></blockquote>

<a href="http://www.bookreporter.com/brc/0679463321.html" target="_blank">http://www.bookreporter.com/brc/0679463321.html</a>

[TrackMan]

This memorial is to be a statue. A statue is a piece of visual art. This art is a way for the artist to communicate to us his feeling about a topic.

Look past the political correctness of this for one second. The terrorist attacks were events that touched the entire nation. Everyone from all nationalities was affected, and reached out to help in any way that they could. This is symbolized in the statue.

When people look at the statue 50 or 100 years from now, are they going to say, hey see how this tradgedy brought together America as a whole, or are they going to say, look at how this tradgedy brought together 3 white firemen.

I believe that the race of the people in this sculpture is much less important than what the statue stands for. I frankly couldn't care less if the statue is less than historically accurate. This is a memorial to America and all her citizens, and that stands above all.

[Thunderwind]

I think the only memorial we should be making for 9/11 is a huuugggee hole in the ground that is now afganistan!!!!

That is the only one I need!!

[Sowulo]

Yeah, that'll solve a lot of problems....let's just kill a few million innocent people who happen to live in a country that had some real corrupt politicians who harbored a few thousand terrorists. After we do this, the rest of the muslim world will just sit up and say, "Oh. We'd better do something to weed out our militant extremist element." Then no one will ever try to kill an American ever again...... :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Hippie_Tech]

The only point I'm trying to make is that when I see the picture, I don't see three white firemen. I only see three firemen period. I'm not even looking at what race or color they are.
However, someone else looked at the picture and saw three WHITE firemen and took it upon themselves to alter the image to serve some imagined need for political correctness. Why? Why does it need to be politically correct?
Again, I am only trying to express my opinion. Neither trying to sway someone else's opinion nor demean someone else's opinion.
In the end, I won't be unhappy if this statue did end up being the actual memorial (there needs to be one), but the whole political correctness agenda really sets me on edge. :(

[Kymera]

[quote]Originally posted by Sowulo:
<strong>Yeah, that'll solve a lot of problems....let's just kill a few million innocent people who happen to live in a country that had some real corrupt politicians who harbored a few thousand terrorists. After we do this, the rest of the muslim world will just sit up and say, "Oh. We'd better do something to weed out our militant extremist element." Then no one will ever try to kill an American ever again......</strong><hr></blockquote>

Wait a second, that's sarcasm right. I learned about that in the second grade.

[quote]Originally posted by Hippie_Tech:<strong>
The only point I'm trying to make is that when I see the picture, I don't see three white firemen. I only see three firemen period. I'm not even looking at what race or color they are.
However, someone else looked at the picture and saw three WHITE firemen and took it upon themselves to alter the image to serve some imagined need for political correctness. Why? Why does it need to be politically correct?
Again, I am only trying to express my opinion. Neither trying to sway someone else's opinion nor demean someone else's opinion.</strong><hr></blockquote>

The memorial is not being politically correct, it is trying to instill/represent that feeling of unity that we all felt in the days after WTC. You may not look at color/race/ethicity, but a number of people sure do. I would feel somewhat insulted if the other ethnicities, who died that day, were not represented in a memorial. To use those 3 firefighters in the memorial, it would be like building them a tribute and forgetting the other black, asian, hispanic and native americans who were casualties or sacrificed themselves in the line of duty. Last time I checked there aren't too many memorials built for living people. I haven't even talked about the sex of the people in the memorial, but that's another can of worms.

[Wayward Clam]

Okay, I have an idea. How about we leave the memorial the way the artist intended and build ANOTHER memorial that includes everybody?

[quote]Originally posted by Sowulo:
<strong>...let's just kill a few million innocent people who happen to live in a country that had some real corrupt politicians who harbored a few thousand terrorists.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Hmmm... wouldn't nuking Washington accomplish the same thing?

[Kymera]

[quote]Originally posted by Wayward Clam:
<strong>Okay, I have an idea. How about we leave the memorial the way the artist intended and build ANOTHER memorial that includes everybody?</strong><hr></blockquote>

The current idea includes a black, white and hispanic firefighter at the flagpole, but the problem is people want the memorial to mimic the picture of the three white firefighters.

[Sowulo]

[quote]Originally posted by Wayward Clam:
<strong>Okay, I have an idea. How about we leave the memorial the way the artist intended and build ANOTHER memorial that includes everybody?



Hmmm... wouldn't nuking Washington accomplish the same thing?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Just so everyone's clear....I was offering a sarcastic response to Thunderwind's comment....now....

Clammy, while we're at it, we could become true anarchists and eliminate all governments and churches everywhere.....at least then everyone else would be killing each other because they had a personal grudge against someone else, not because some politician or religious leader told them to...... :p :rolleyes: :p

[Sowulo]

Oops. I guess that wasn't too PC of me to joke about such things..... :(

[Drone2903]

[quote]Originally posted by Sowulo:
<strong>Clammy, while we're at it, we could become true anarchists and eliminate all governments and churches everywhere.....at least then everyone else would be killing each other because they had a personal grudge against someone else, not because some politician or religious leader told them to...... :p :rolleyes: :p </strong><hr></blockquote>

That's the kind of comments that would usually get you a big

"EDITED BY SOWULO"

:D

[Wayward Clam]

Sowulo, I stand by my own post and claim it is legit. You said (sarcastically) that destroying Afghanistan would:

"kill a few million innocent people who happen to live in a country that had some real corrupt politicians who harbored a few thousand terrorists."

Let's see... bombing Washington would kill a few million innocent people... who live in a country that definitely has some real corrupt politicians... and has also harbored terrorists in the past as well...

Bombing Ottawa or London or Geneva or Buenos Aires would also accomplish the same thing, too...

Where's the issue?

<img src="confused.gif" border="0">

[Sowulo]

[quote]Originally posted by Wayward Clam:
<strong>Sowulo, I stand by my own post and claim it is legit. You said (sarcastically) that destroying Afghanistan would:

"kill a few million innocent people who happen to live in a country that had some real corrupt politicians who harbored a few thousand terrorists."

Let's see... bombing Washington would kill a few million innocent people... who live in a country that definitely has some real corrupt politicians... and has also harbored terrorists in the past as well...

Bombing Ottawa or London or Geneva or Buenos Aires would also accomplish the same thing, too...

Where's the issue?

:confused: </strong><hr></blockquote>

Oh, I wasn't disagreeing with you at all--I was only taking your great idea and running with it but of course with my tongue very firmly planted in my cheek just to cover my butt if someone decided we had a good idea.... :D :D :D

[Wayward Clam]

Ah. My bad then. We now return you to your regularly scheduled outrage.

:D

[Wayward Clam]

[quote]Originally posted by Sowulo:
<strong>...with my tongue very firmly planted in my cheek just to cover my butt...</strong><hr></blockquote>

BTW, I'm not too sure I like the anatomical connotations of this post... :eek: :eek: :eek:

[Sowulo]

[quote]Originally posted by Wayward Clam:
<strong>

BTW, I'm not too sure I like the anatomical connotations of this post... :eek: :eek: :eek: </strong><hr></blockquote>

ROFL....anyone for a game of Twister???? :D

[Thunderwind]

[quote]Originally posted by Sowulo:
<strong>Yeah, that'll solve a lot of problems....let's just kill a few million innocent people who happen to live in a country that had some real corrupt politicians who harbored a few thousand terrorists. After we do this, the rest of the muslim world will just sit up and say, "Oh. We'd better do something to weed out our militant extremist element." Then no one will ever try to kill an American ever again...... :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: </strong><hr></blockquote>

Unfortunately WAR does kill many innocent people, WAR is barbaric, WAR is not humane, WAR is not pretty, WAR means Kill or be Killed. I would rather do the killing!

I don’t care if they are Muslims or aliens, kill em all. All of em damit!!!

Do I seem angry today? Maybe I just hate to see my own people die (Americans)!!

[Wayward Clam]

[quote]Originally posted by Thunderwind (Steven Henry):
<strong>I don’t care if they are Muslims or aliens, kill em all. All of em damit!!!

Do I seem angry today? Maybe I just hate to see my own people die (Americans)!!</strong><hr></blockquote>

I pity you, Steven.

[Hippie_Tech]

Just some food for thought. How did they arrive at the decision to remove the two firefighters and replace them with two models, one black and one hispanic? Was one of the white firefighters more white than the other two? What do the two firefighters feel about being deleted from the original image? I have absolutely no problem with showing racial diversity in a memorial. Many people from different races AND nationalities died in the tragedy. It wasn't just Americans that died. This memorial isn't even THE memorial for that day. It is a memorial for the firefighters that died that day. The image was altered for political correctness. Please don't try to argue that it wasn't for political correctness. To change the image to show racial diversity within the firefighting community IS an attempt at political correctness. Political correctness IS to not exclude any race or color or nationality in a way that will anger them. I see a lot of apathy towards the whole PC movement, "It's not that big a deal so who cares."
Does anyone really think the image SHOULD have been altered in the first place or do you just not care that it was altered?
To be honest, I'm not sure why I feel so strongly about this or even why I've tried so hard to express my point of view. Every time I see something altered for political correctness I can't help but wonder if this whole idea of pointing out our differences (race and color) is only adding to the problem it's trying to correct. We are all Americans (not speaking for everyone in this forum). We are not white Americans, black Americans, and hispanic Americans. Just plain simple Americans period. I know this is an idealized view, but it's how I feel. Especially now. :cool:

[mustangjenni]

The reason why I signed is because I feel that changinf the races of the people in the statue disrepects the fireman who are getting shafted by the change. What they did is worthy or an exact representation of those three men. How must they feel. Aren't we discriminating them in the name of being PC?

[Kymera]

I thought all of the faces were made "generic" to avoid that very problem. Anyway, the NYC fire department is 93% white. I guess they blocked the statue because there weren't enough white people in the final version or something.

[silencio]

[quote]Originally posted by Sowulo:
<strong>Clammy, while we're at it, we could become true anarchists and eliminate all governments and churches everywhere.....at least then everyone else would be killing each other because they had a personal grudge against someone else, not because some politician or religious leader told them to...... :p :rolleyes: :p </strong><hr></blockquote>

Coool :cool:

You mean I could think for myself?

[Lycia]

I say make the thing outa copper and let time make it green so there is no distinction of "colour".