Best jabs at the convention

[jitBob]

The best jab I heard at the Democratic convention last night belonged to Bill Clinton when he said: " Strength and wisdom are not conflicting values -- they go hand in hand."

Zing, head shot to Bush. Hahahahahaha Bwaahaahaa!!!

[amyb]

The best jab I heard at the Democratic convention last night belonged to Bill Clinton when he said: " Strength and wisdom are not conflicting values -- they go hand in hand."

Zing, head shot to Bush. Hahahahahaha Bwaahaahaa!!!
Coming from a guy that is so virtuous..please. :p

[Ya_know]

If that's the best the Democrats got, Bush doesn't have anything to fear... ;)

[jitBob]

If that's the best the Democrats got, Bush doesn't have anything to fear... ;)
No it wasn't the best, but it sure was funny. http://forums.windrivers.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[amyb]

No it wasn't the best, but it sure was funny. http://forums.windrivers.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif
Because of the irony of the statement?

[Ya_know]

No it wasn't the best, but it sure was funny. http://forums.windrivers.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

but your first statement, even the title of your thread both state "best jabs". Don't tell me you got a case of the Kerry "flip-flop"...! That's even worse then teh Gay!

[jitBob]

Speaking of flip/flopping. Jimmy Carter got one into the body.

"You can't be a war president one day and claim to be a peace president the next, depending on the latest political polls."

[jitBob]

Even Al Gore got a good one in.

"Did you expect, for example, the largest deficits in history? One after another? And the loss of more than a million jobs? "

[Zil]

Let's see what the "candidate" has to say on Thursday. I can't wait for that speech, when everyone can see what a dry, boring person Mr. Kerry really is and how he has no reason to elect him except "I was in Vietnam!" and "I'm not President Bush".

[Commander Klarg]

and "I'm not President Bush".


That's enough in my book. I think I would vote for Nader before Bush. :eek2: But yes, let's see what Mr. Kerry has to say.

[techs]

Let's see what the "candidate" has to say on Thursday. I can't wait for that speech, when everyone can see what a dry, boring person Mr. Kerry really is and how he has no reason to elect him except "I was in Vietnam!" and "I'm not President Bush".
Dry and boring? As opposed to stupid and irrational? Give me dry and boring.
Elect him because he showed personal courage and enough love for his country to risk his life defending it? Two really good reasons.
"At least I'm not President Bush" Isn't that what people say after they do something really stupid.

[Ya_know]

Elect him because he showed personal courage and enough love for his country to risk his life defending it?

He didn't risk his life defending this country...he did some stupid sh!t over sea’s, forged his way to an early end to his tour of duty, then came right back to the US to protest the efforts of his country—all in direct violation of his commission as an officer in the US armed services. He’s a criminal if you ask me…and should have been charged with dereliction of duty, conduct unbecoming, and disobeying lawful orders…I wouldn’t go so far as to charge him with treason, but a borderline offender he certainly is!

I still don’t see how you can support this loser with such zeal, knowing all of this about him.

[techs]

He didn't risk his life defending this country...he did some stupid sh!t over sea’s, forged his way to an early end to his tour of duty, then came right back to the US to protest the efforts of his country—all in direct violation of his commission as an officer in the US armed services. He’s a criminal if you ask me…and should have been charged with dereliction of duty, conduct unbecoming, and disobeying lawful orders…I wouldn’t go so far as to charge him with treason, but a borderline offender he certainly is!

I still don’t see how you can support this loser with such zeal, knowing all of this about him.

That's nonesense. He won three purple hearts and a bronze star. When I see how the chickenhawk Bush allows his minions to smear Kerry with those lies it proves Gores and Clintons point.
Bush has lied to the American people more than any president in history. Thats saying alot since we had Nixon.
He lied his way into the presidency.
Note what he said to get elected and then what he did when elected:

BUSH SUPPORTS CURRENT TOBACCO FARMERS' QUOTA SYSTEM
BUSH ADMINISTRATION WILL SUPPORT FEDERAL BUYOUT OF TOBACCO QUOTAS

BUSH PLEDGES NOT TO TOUCH SOCIAL SECURITY SURPLUS
BUSH SPENDS SOCIAL SECURITY SURPLUS

BUSH PROMISES TO FORCE OPEC TO LOWER PRICES
BUSH REFUSES TO LOBBY OPEC LEADERS

BUSH SUPPORTS MANDATORY CAPS ON CARBON DIOXIDE
BUSH OPPOSES MANDATORY CAPS ON CARBON DIOXIDE

BUSH SAYS GAY MARRIAGE IS A STATE ISSUE
BUSH SUPPORTS CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT BANNING GAY MARRIAGE

BUSH OPPOSES NATION BUILDING
BUSH SUPPORTS NATION BUILDING

BUSH OPPOSES MCCAIN-FEINGOLD
BUSH SIGNS MCCAIN-FEINGOLD INTO LAW

BUSH SUPPORTS ASSAULT WEAPONS BAN
BUSH REFUSES TO PUSH FOR ASSUALT WEAPONS BAN

BUSH IS AGAINST DEFICITS
BUSH IS FOR DEFICITS

BUSH PROMISES TO FULLY FUND 'NO CHILD LEFT BEHIND'
BUSH FAILS TO FULLY FUND 'NO CHILD LEFT BEHIND'

BUSH IS AGAINST THE US TAKING SIDES IN THE PALESTINIAN-ISRAEL DISPUTE
BUSH TAKES ISRAELS SIDE

BUSH SAYS THE US WON'T NEGOTIATE WITH N. KOREA
BUSH SAYS THE US WILL NEGOTIATE WITH N. KOREA

Where is the President Bush that ran for President? Obviously he felt that in the midst of a crisis he didn't have to live up to his promises. He could use 9-11 as a cover to completely disregard every promise he made to the American people.

And that's why he has to go.

[Cleetus]

He didn't risk his life defending this country...he did some stupid sh!t over sea’s, forged his way to an early end to his tour of duty, then came right back to the US to protest the efforts of his country—all in direct violation of his commission as an officer in the US armed services. He’s a criminal if you ask me…and should have been charged with dereliction of duty, conduct unbecoming, and disobeying lawful orders…I wouldn’t go so far as to charge him with treason, but a borderline offender he certainly is!

I still don’t see how you can support this loser with such zeal, knowing all of this about him.
Oh, you mean like Bush going AWOL?

[techs]

Oh, you mean like Bush going AWOL?
Hey Cleetus don't you have to wonder what the troops in Iraq think about the way Bush treats war heroes?

[jitBob]

Oh, you mean like Bush going AWOL?
Not Georgie. Georgie wouldn't do that. A little beer and cocaine and he might forget to show up, but AWOL, no, never. http://forums.windrivers.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

[Zil]

Dry and boring? As opposed to stupid and irrational? Give me dry and boring.
Elect him because he showed personal courage and enough love for his country to risk his life defending it? Two really good reasons.
"At least I'm not President Bush" Isn't that what people say after they do something really stupid.


Thanks for proving my specific point:


he has no reason to elect him except "I was in Vietnam!" and "I'm not President Bush".


You gave no reason why John Kerry should be president other than the reasons from my quote.

[edball]

He didn't risk his life defending this country...he did some stupid sh!t over sea’s, forged his way to an early end to his tour of duty, then came right back to the US to protest the efforts of his country—all in direct violation of his commission as an officer in the US armed services. He’s a criminal if you ask me…and should have been charged with dereliction of duty, conduct unbecoming, and disobeying lawful orders…I wouldn’t go so far as to charge him with treason, but a borderline offender he certainly is!

I still don’t see how you can support this loser with such zeal, knowing all of this about him.
I think you should read his record before you criticize him. Especially the part about how he killed a Viet Cong and took a rocket launcher from him. Why don't you read them both while you're at it.

http://www.awolbush.com/kerry-vs-bush.asp

[jitBob]

I think you should read his record before you criticize him. Especially the part about how he killed a Viet Cong and took a rocket launcher from him. Why don't you read them both while you're at it.

http://www.awolbush.com/kerry-vs-bush.asp
Wow. What do you have to say now Ya_Know?

[TripleRLtd]

He didn't risk his life defending this country...he did some stupid sh!t over sea’s, forged his way to an early end to his tour of duty, then came right back to the US to protest the efforts of his country—all in direct violation of his commission as an officer in the US armed services. He’s a criminal if you ask me…and should have been charged with dereliction of duty, conduct unbecoming, and disobeying lawful orders…I wouldn’t go so far as to charge him with treason, but a borderline offender he certainly is!

Bullsh!t!! Plain and simple. You do know that there is a difference between being an ardent supporter of Bush, and just plain old anti-Kerry, right? Now you sound like techs and his virulent anti-Bush crusade.
Most officers with a brain in their heads came home or stayed stateside and were AGAINST the Vietnam war. In fact, the people from that era that I respected the most were the Vets against Vietnam. Now you are being blind, as if to be a patriot we have to agree with every move our country makes. Nope, sorry, a true American and patriot will indeed fight and/or protest even against his own country when the time is right, or wrong. Vietnam was WRONG, and Kerry was right to protest it, as were the thousands of other Vet's who did.

[techs]

I like the part where Clinton noted he is now in that one percent who are getting 50 percent of the tax cut. He was really touched how the Republicans now cared for him so much that they were willing to cut every thing else, health care, vet benefits, education just so he could keep the tax cut.
He was touched because he said "as you know when I was President some of the Republicans weren't very nice to me"

[jaeger]

Vietnam was WRONG,

Vietnam wasn't wrong, but it was stupid to get involved in. We are backed up by hindsight that trying to stop the Communists was noble, but we should have realized beforehand that there was no way we were going to win in Vietnam without going fullbore.

[techs]

Vietnam wasn't wrong, but it was stupid to get involved in. We are backed up by hindsight that trying to stop the Communists was noble, but we should have realized beforehand that there was no way we were going to win in Vietnam without going fullbore.

Which is why Presidents have to be careful what they say. "Bear any burden, pay any price" Sounded great didn't it?
I wonder what life is like for the average Vietnamese these days?

[cookin chef]

I know this jab may not apply to this convention, but I loved Arnold's speech about calling the California Democrats a bunch of girlie men!!!

:devil:

[TripleRLtd]

Vietnam wasn't wrong, but it was stupid to get involved in. We are backed up by hindsight that trying to stop the Communists was noble, but we should have realized beforehand that there was no way we were going to win in Vietnam without going fullbore. Tell me jaeger, what about our involvement in VietNam was noble? I really want to know. Was it this:
Read all about it: http://www.vvaw.org/about/warhistory.php
In 1945, the Democratic Republic of Vietnam was formed with Ho Chi Minh as the first President. American planes flew over Hanoi in celebration of the founding. The Vietnamese Declaration of Independence echoed that of the U.S.: "All men are created equal. They are endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights, among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness...This immortal statement is extracted from the Declaration of Independence of the United States of America in 1776. Understood in the broader sense this means: All people on earth are born equal. Every person has the right to live, to be happy, and free."

Ho Chi Minh asked the Americans to honor their commitment to independence, citing the Atlantic Charter and the U.N. Charter on self-determination. However, by the end of the war, the U.S. government had begun to redirect its foreign policy from the wartime goal of the liberation of all occupied countries and colonies to the postwar anti-communist crusade, which became the Cold War.



Or, how about this:
According to international agreement, Vietnam was to be temporarily divided into north and south, with free elections to take place nationwide in 1956. Even before the French were out, the U.S. was moving in. Prior to Dien Bien Phu, the U.S. set up MAAG (Military Assistance and Advisory Group) consisting of 350 U.S. personnel operating in Saigon in support of the French. Between 1950 and 1954, the U.S. contributed over $3 billion to their French allies in the fight for Vietnam. By 1954, the U.S. contributions were providing 80% of the cost of the war. MAAG began to train a "nationalistic" Vietnamese force of a quarter of a million men. This force was largely made up of Vietnamese who had fought for the French.

Former Emperor Bao Dai had appointed Ngo Dinh Diem, a Vietnamese Catholic who had lived in the U.S. and Europe, Premier of South Vietnam. Though Vietnam was 95% Buddhist, the Catholic Diem was soon recognized as the future leader of Vietnam by the CIA and other U.S. interests. In 1956 the U.S. refused to go along with the promised nation-wide elections because, in the words of President Eisenhower, "Possibly 80 per cent of the population would have voted for the Communist Ho Chi Minh as their leader rather than Chief of State Bao Dai."

U.S. involvement continued and so did U.S. money and men. American presence rose to 500 under Eisenhower and grew to 15,000 under Kennedy. But Diem continued to be in trouble: former Viet Minh cadres helped to support a number of groups to oppose Diem and the French successor in Vietnam -- the U.S. The similarity between the French and the U.S. forces in Vietnam was, from the Vietnamese point of view, more than that both were foreign oppressors. Even our uniforms were similar, right down to the green berets. In fact, U.S. troops were known as "Frenchmen with money."



Tell me would ya? How, in fact was our involvement in Vietnam "noble"? And, how many blinded Americans believed in that policy...obviously, until today: with you, too?

[Major Kong]

Blame the frelling French and their sale guerre from 1945 to 1954 which came crashing down at Dien Bien Phu. You can actually blame it on the whole French Union concept and France's commitment to protect Laos sovereignty from the DRV.

Boy this subject could lead to several thousand pages of reply's.

[TripleRLtd]

Blame the frelling French and their sale guerre from 1945 to 1954 which came crashing down at Dien Bien Phu. You can actually blame it on the whole French Union concept and France's commitment to protect Laos sovereignty from the DRV.

Boy this subject could lead to several thousand pages of reply's. Tell me about it Major!http://forums.windrivers.com/images/smilies/thumbs.gif
And, nothing but BAD memories, and bad policies, and bad history!!
If there was EVER one thing that we should NOT have gotten involved in, it was VietNam!! So sad that we " had" to support France after their downfall.
So sad that we "had" to stop communism at "all" costs.
So sad that WE, for once lost, and deserved to.
So sad that we killed millions of Vietnamese who only wanted to rule themselves after a thousand years.
So sad that we defoliated 20% of their land and their people for our "own" purposes.
So sad that we, for once, made ourselves a mockery to to the world for the first, and sadly...not last, time in history.
And, so sad that it was BOTH parties that did it!! Not the Dems or Republicans, but ALL of us!! And our policy? Was it Imperialistic? Was it? Only time will tell! But guess what? To much of the world, IT sure is looking that way...and, really, who can blame "them" for seeing things that way? Tell me, would ya? Why does America look so bad in the eyes of the rest of world? I'll tell you: it ALL started with VietNam!!!
Even when "we" do a good thing like Afghanistan or Iraq, we will always pay with Vietnam.

[Major Kong]

Trip it could have been much worse!!! Have you ever heard of Operation Vulture? Thankfully on April 8, 1954 the Eisenhower White House rejected the French request for American intervention at Dien Bien Phu (DNP). However on the same day SoS Dulles offered the French TWO A-Bombs to save DBP. The French turned down the offer as they did not want to use nukes.

We came awfully close to full out commitment to war with Vietnam and China years before the escalation in the 60's because of the Domino Theory.

[TripleRLtd]

Trip it could have been much worse!!! Have you ever heard of Operation Vulture? Thankfully on April 8, 1954 the Eisenhower White House rejected the French request for American intervention at Dien Bien Phu (DNP). However on the same day SoS Dulles offered the French TWO A-Bombs to save DBP. The French turned down the offer as they did not want to use nukes.

We came awfully close to full out commitment to war with Vietnam and China years before the escalation in the 60's because of the Domino Theory.Yeah, I do remember ( of course, not personally, but reading about it). Indeed, thankfully, cooler heads prevailed.
My question is: how often is that going to be the case with us humans with our "shoot from the hip" ways? One of these days, it is surely going to get the best of us all. What then?



btw Ya_k,
this was NOT meant as a condemnation of what you said. Sometimes cooler heads DO prevail. What you said was NOT one of them,
Kerry did his part in a lousy chapter of OUR history. So, take him up on his issues, or lack thereof, but NOT his part in Vietnam. Not one of us can be proud of what we did to, or for, or against, Vietnam. None of us!

[RIOT]

btw Ya_k,
this was NOT meant as a condemnation of what you said. Sometimes cooler heads DO prevail. What you said was NOT one of them,
Kerry did his part in a lousy chapter of OUR history. So, take him up on his issues, or lack thereof, but NOT his part in Vietnam. Not one of us can be proud of what we did to, or for, or against, Vietnam. None of us!

Does that mean that we'll never hear from the Democrats ever again about how Kerry went to Vietnam and was awarded some commendations? Are they going to focus on their issues, or lack thereor?

[Cleetus]

Thanks for proving my specific point:



You gave no reason why John Kerry should be president other than the reasons from my quote.
Other then the very valid second reason, he isn't a liar, drunk, coke head that drives everything he touches into the ground while somehow taking credit for how stuff bounces back after he leaves.

Son of a bitch duped me with the whole WMD's thing, he lied, I fell for it, I won't let it happen again. Of course, now I am going to get everyone jumping in that has picked up their GOP talking points from the oh so "liberal media" telling me that I don't care about all the people that Saddam was killing, yada, yada, yada, while we try to forget that it was in fact about the WMD's esp when Powell went in front of the UN and the World and presented facts that they somehow existed and we should go to war to find them, then suddenly our intelligence is so bad that Saddam was able to sneak the entire supply out of his country and out of the hands of his armies that were being crushed.

[Cleetus]

Does that mean that we'll never hear from the Democrats ever again about how Kerry went to Vietnam and was awarded some commendations? Are they going to focus on their issues, or lack thereor?
You mean like no more preemptive wars? You mean like the economy? You mean like not only giving stock holders tax breaks?

[Ya_know]

Wow. What do you have to say now Ya_Know?

Any site that starts out as awolbush.com isn't going to give me any creditably balanced information. I offer only to use of a grain of salt...in that the references to the combat action of Kerry are not perfect accounts of his actions, but biased to present one side of a story to mask his image as a war protester. His protesting against the war showed his support of the troops. Those efforts undermined support for them throughout the nation, and was a gross display that can only be scrutinized—and as an effect of his possible motives his war record becomes a playing field to expose deceit.

We don’t know what happened in combat with Kerry, but we can presume that Kerry's motivation to leave the war is what drove him to submit for the decorations required to receive an early boat home. And it’s also possible that the actual accounts that went into the citations were grossly exaggerated, or perhaps largely fabricated. It has been know at times that recipients actually composed their citations by their own accounts, without scrutiny.

To come here and tell me he was a hero, but not even approach the thought that he was a cheat, liar, and a fraud simply because “he’s a war hero” doesn’t add up.

[Ya_know]

btw Ya_k,
this was NOT meant as a condemnation of what you said. Sometimes cooler heads DO prevail. What you said was NOT one of them,
Kerry did his part in a lousy chapter of OUR history. So, take him up on his issues, or lack thereof, but NOT his part in Vietnam. Not one of us can be proud of what we did to, or for, or against, Vietnam. None of us!

So you are saying because he is a self proclaimed "war hero" that his record should go un-scrutinized, especially with the events that followed and the brief timeframe in which everything occurred...it is all very suspicious, and should be addressed. Simply because there are heroes out there that didn’t get the coverage that Kerry got, those men didn’t get medals for what they did, yet Kerry walked out of there within only a few months with a full chest, and a quick ride home to protest the war. Sorry man, it ain’t that cut and dry.

[edball]

Any site that starts out as awolbush.com isn't going to give me any creditably balanced information. I offer only to use of a grain of salt...in that the references to the combat action of Kerry are not perfect accounts of his actions, but biased to present one side of a story to mask his image as a war protester. His protesting against the war showed his support of the troops. Those efforts undermined support for them throughout the nation, and was a gross display that can only be scrutinized—and as an effect of his possible motives his war record becomes a playing field to expose deceit.

We don’t know what happened in combat with Kerry, but we can presume that Kerry's motivation to leave the war is what drove him to submit for the decorations required to receive an early boat home. And it’s also possible that the actual accounts that went into the citations were grossly exaggerated, or perhaps largely fabricated. It has been know at times that recipients actually composed their citations by their own accounts, without scrutiny.

To come here and tell me he was a hero, but not even approach the thought that he was a cheat, liar, and a fraud simply because “he’s a war hero” doesn’t add up.
I admit that site was biased but it had all the actual documents in pdf form, you just had to read them for yourself. Anyway, here is a snopes page that tells you that the claims about Kerry's war record being fishy are false.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/kerry/service.asp

[techs]

Any site that starts out as awolbush.com isn't going to give me any creditably balanced information. I offer only to use of a grain of salt...in that the references to the combat action of Kerry are not perfect accounts of his actions, but biased to present one side of a story to mask his image as a war protester. His protesting against the war showed his support of the troops. Those efforts undermined support for them throughout the nation, and was a gross display that can only be scrutinized—and as an effect of his possible motives his war record becomes a playing field to expose deceit.

We don’t know what happened in combat with Kerry, but we can presume that Kerry's motivation to leave the war is what drove him to submit for the decorations required to receive an early boat home. And it’s also possible that the actual accounts that went into the citations were grossly exaggerated, or perhaps largely fabricated. It has been know at times that recipients actually composed their citations by their own accounts, without scrutiny.

To come here and tell me he was a hero, but not even approach the thought that he was a cheat, liar, and a fraud simply because “he’s a war hero” doesn’t add up.

But we do know what happened. See my thread http://forums.windrivers.com/showthread.php?t=61616
We have the text from his decorations, the after action reports and the testimony of the men who were with him
And your saying that protesting the war undermined the support for our troops? Are you saying we shouldn't protest a war? That trying to end a war is not supporting our trooops? That supporting the war is supporting our troops?
I disagree with you 100 percent on this.
And to "not even approach the thought that he was cheat, liar and fraud" statement is possibly the result of the smear campaign against him.
There is no evidence in the military records and no evidence from ANYONE who was there that these events did not happen exactly as reported.
There are claims from people who were not there that they happened differently. These people originally said they were there. When proved they weren't they said the heard it from someone else.
BUT not one single shred of evidence exists to show these events did not happen exactly as stated in the text of the citations and the after action reports. And the men who were with him will be with him tonite in Boston.
I think you missed the boat on this one. I am surprised that you have taken this position. It seems unlike you.

[Ya_know]

BUT not one single shred of evidence exists to show these events did not happen exactly as stated in the text of the citations and the after action reports. And the men who were with him will be with him tonite in Boston.
I think you missed the boat on this one. I am surprised that you have taken this position. It seems unlike you.

I don't read that much on the subject that much anymore, because either side is slanted towards their own objective, and I haven’t seen the conclusive evidence for either side, so if it exists I overlooked it simply because I am bored with all of the back and forth. I tell you what, I'll just take your word for it and move on. :thumbs:

[currently reading some more]

[techs]

I don't read that much on the subject that much anymore, because either side is slanted towards their own objective, and I haven’t seen the conclusive evidence for either side, so if it exists I overlooked it simply because I am bored with all of the back and forth. I tell you what, I'll just take your word for it and move on. :thumbs:

[currently reading some more]

Fair enough. The links in my other post might help.

[jitBob]

... Not one of us can be proud of what we did to, or for, or against, Vietnam. None of us!
I am not ashamed of my behavior during the Viet Nam war. I protested the war in the moratorium of 1969 and I enlisted in 1972. I was fully against my countrys' policies in southeast Asia and more than enough of a patriot to do my duties. I can fully understand where John Kerry was coming from. To fight a war without conviction is not right or just.

[Zil]

Other then the very valid second reason, he isn't a liar, drunk, coke head that drives everything he touches into the ground while somehow taking credit for how stuff bounces back after he leaves.

Son of a bitch duped me with the whole WMD's thing, he lied, I fell for it, I won't let it happen again. Of course, now I am going to get everyone jumping in that has picked up their GOP talking points from the oh so "liberal media" telling me that I don't care about all the people that Saddam was killing, yada, yada, yada, while we try to forget that it was in fact about the WMD's esp when Powell went in front of the UN and the World and presented facts that they somehow existed and we should go to war to find them, then suddenly our intelligence is so bad that Saddam was able to sneak the entire supply out of his country and out of the hands of his armies that were being crushed.

Again, no one gives me an answer that does not fall into the 2 reasons I said earlier. You guys love to bash Bush's "mistakes" and throw mud all over him, yet you offer no reason on Kerry's agenda or platform that makes you want to vote for the guy. Is there anyone who is positive about Kerry's campaign (in that there is no Bush-bashing, just praise for Kerry)?

I challenge techs, Cleetus or whoever to post a positive message (and a sample of the agenda) on why we should vote for John Kerry without bashing Pres. Bush (besides the fact that he was in Vietnam). Your former President couldn't even keep to the positive.

[techs]

Again, no one gives me an answer that does not fall into the 2 reasons I said earlier. You guys love to bash Bush's "mistakes" and throw mud all over him, yet you offer no reason on Kerry's agenda or platform that makes you want to vote for the guy. Is there anyone who is positive about Kerry's campaign (in that there is no Bush-bashing, just praise for Kerry)?

I challenge techs, Cleetus or whoever to post a positive message (and a sample of the agenda) on why we should vote for John Kerry without bashing Pres. Bush (besides the fact that he was in Vietnam). Your former President couldn't even keep to the positive.

A real Medicare prescription plan. A college tuition plan based on service so all who have the grades can go to college. Re-establishing positive ties with our former allies so they will work with us to fight terrorism. Tax incentives to keep jobs in America. Enlarged Armed Forces and increased benefits to our troops(esp. giving health insurance to the National Guard members who served in Iraq).
A rollback of the useless to the economy tax cut for the top one percent, thereby stimulating the economy. Extension of unemployment benefits which help workers survive while laid off.
And perhaps the most important. And end to the dishonesty of our Federal government that has grown to the point where it threatens democracy.
And that's just the first week.

[Cleetus]

Again, no one gives me an answer that does not fall into the 2 reasons I said earlier. You guys love to bash Bush's "mistakes" and throw mud all over him, yet you offer no reason on Kerry's agenda or platform that makes you want to vote for the guy. Is there anyone who is positive about Kerry's campaign (in that there is no Bush-bashing, just praise for Kerry)?

I challenge techs, Cleetus or whoever to post a positive message (and a sample of the agenda) on why we should vote for John Kerry without bashing Pres. Bush (besides the fact that he was in Vietnam). Your former President couldn't even keep to the positive.
Well...

No, I don't feel like it, I hate Bush, he has failed his job, and I have already said I am still looking for a candidate.

[Zil]

A real Medicare prescription plan. A college tuition plan based on service so all who have the grades can go to college. Re-establishing positive ties with our former allies so they will work with us to fight terrorism. Tax incentives to keep jobs in America. Enlarged Armed Forces and increased benefits to our troops(esp. giving health insurance to the National Guard members who served in Iraq).
A rollback of the useless to the economy tax cut for the top one percent, thereby stimulating the economy. Extension of unemployment benefits which help workers survive while laid off.
And perhaps the most important. And end to the dishonesty of our Federal government that has grown to the point where it threatens democracy.
And that's just the first week.


Thank you techs, now if you keep this up, maybe more people will vote for your candidate?

[techs]

Thank you techs, now if you keep this up, maybe more people will vote for your candidate?

Up til now Kerry has been so busy fighting the smear campaign no one has heard his plans. Hopefully that will change after the conventions. btw the Dems seem to be taking the high road at the convention. Hope the Republicans do the same.

[Ya_know]

Fair enough. The links in my other post might help.

Ok, back to the smearing... :p

Techs, from your Snoops article: http://www.snopes.com/politics/kerry/service.asp

Although there was no hard-and-fast rule, U.S. military procedure generally allowed any serviceman who received three Purple Hearts to request reassignment away from a combat zone, so Kerry talked to Commodore Charles F. Horne, an administrative official and commander of the coastal squadron in which he served. Four days after Kerry took his third hit of shrapnel, Horne forwarded a request on Kerry's behalf to the Navy Bureau of Personnel asking that Kerry be reassigned to "duty as a personal aide in Boston, New York, or Washington, D.C." Soon afterwards Kerry was transferred to Cam Ranh Bay to await further orders, and within a month he had been reassigned as a personal aide and flag lieutenant to Rear Admiral Walter F. Schlech, Jr. with the Military Sea Transportation Service based in Brooklyn, New York.

The article is only stating raw fact, it doesn't cover everything that went on during this transition. Seems to me Kerry was looking for a fast boat out of country. (per your article) 4 days after he sustained his third injury his request to transfer stateside had already working its way well up the chain of command. He risked peoples lives with the beaching of the boat, although by their account seemed to be the best thing to do. He volunteering for "dangerous" missions, and otherwise went out of his way to prepare for an early departure. That doesn’t necessarily make him a war hero.

Kudos to him, if I were in a war and wanted to go home, I suppose I would try anything short of wearing a dress, and he picked an admirable way to do it. Had I been against a war, I too probably would have protested it. But I most certainly wouldn’t be comfortable calling myself a hero, or telling you that I support the troops already overseas if I was doing the things he did when he returned...to hear stories of how he “earned” these medals still doesn’t sit well with me. I still believe that he’s a fraud.

[techs]

Ok, back to the smearing... :p

Techs, from your Snoops article: http://www.snopes.com/politics/kerry/service.asp



The article is only stating raw fact, it doesn't cover everything that went on during this transition. Seems to me Kerry was looking for a fast boat out of country. (per your article) 4 days after he sustained his third injury his request to transfer stateside had already working its way well up the chain of command. He risked peoples lives with the beaching of the boat, although by their account seemed to be the best thing to do. He volunteering for "dangerous" missions, and otherwise went out of his way to prepare for an early departure. That doesn’t necessarily make him a war hero.

Kudos to him, if I were in a war and wanted to go home, I suppose I would try anything short of wearing a dress, and he picked an admirable way to do it. Had I been against a war, I too probably would have protested it. But I most certainly wouldn’t be comfortable calling myself a hero, or telling you that I support the troops already overseas if I was doing the things he did when he returned...to hear stories of how he “earned” these medals still doesn’t sit well with me. I still believe that he’s a fraud.

So you are inferring that Kerry bravely attacked the mortar position to get out of Vietnam? And that he risked peoples lives by intentionally beaching his boat to attack the mortar position?
Wow. I guess that's what Audie Murphy did, too.
That's a pretty far fetched theory.

FYI From the Snopes website:

Claim: John Kerry's Vietnam War service medals (a Bronze Star, a Silver Star and three Purple Hearts) were earned under "fishy" circumstances.

Status: False.

[techs]

I just had time to read the whole thing. After you get past the part snopes says is the rumor that is going around snopes than launches into what really happened. 99.99 percent of what snopes says backs Kerry 100 percent.
The part about his boat:
Although Kerry's superiors were somewhat concerned about the issue of his leaving his boat unattended, they nonetheless found his actions courageous and worthy of commendation
And note this is "qoute" of Snopes opinion, not a quote from any records.
The part where he talks about how kerry left Vietnam is not attributed to anyone and is apparently snopes opinion.
What you say is how he left is NOT supported on Snopes and is your Opinion.

[jitBob]

Edward Kennedy gets a good one in at Cheney.

"There's a reason why this land was called "the American experiment." If dedication to the common good were hardwired into human nature, we would never have needed a revolution. If each of us cared about the public interest, we wouldn't have the excesses of Enron. We wouldn't have the abuses of Halliburton. And Vice President Cheney would be retired to an undisclosed location."

[techs]

Edward Kennedy gets a good one in at Cheney.

"There's a reason why this land was called "the American experiment." If dedication to the common good were hardwired into human nature, we would never have needed a revolution. If each of us cared about the public interest, we wouldn't have the excesses of Enron. We wouldn't have the abuses of Halliburton. And Vice President Cheney would be retired to an undisclosed location."
Wouldn't it be funny if the 'undisclosed location' was France?

[jitBob]

Edward Kennedy gets one in on President Bush:

"In the White House, inscribed on a plaque above the fireplace in the state dining room, is a prayer a simple but powerful prayer of John Adams, the first president to live in that great house. It reads: "I pray heaven to bestow the best of blessings on this house and on all that shall hereafter inhabit it. May none but the honest and wise ever rule under this roof." In November, we will make those words ring true again."

[techs]

Barack Obama.
Only in America can a skinny black man with a funny name like mine be here addressing this convention.

[techs]

Al Sharpton of all people.
We thought we would get Weapons of Mass Destruction but instead we got Errors of Mass Deception.

[JaxSon]

From John Edwards: (http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/07/28/dems.edwards.transcript/index.html)
And when John is president, we will listen to the wisdom of the September 11 commission. We will lead strong alliances. We will safeguard and secure our weapons of mass destruction. We will strengthen our homeland security, protect our ports, protect our chemical plants, and support our firefighters, police officers, EMTs. We will always use our military might to keep the American people safe.

And we, John and I, we will have one clear unmistakable message for al Qaeda and these terrorists: You cannot run. You cannot hide. We will destroy you.

Excuse while I stop laughing.

John Kerry is Weak on National Defense. (http://www.georgewbush.com/News/Read.aspx?ID=3081)

Kerry Voted Against Funding For Virginia Class Submarine, Built To Meet Post-Cold War Threats, At Least Seven Times.

In 1993, Kerry Introduced Plan To Cut Numerous Defense Programs, Including:
-Cut the number of Navy submarines and their crews
-Reduce the number of light infantry units in the Army down to one
-Reduce tactical fighter wings in the Air Force
-Terminate the Navy’s coastal mine-hunting ship program
-Force the retirement of no less than 60,000 members of the Armed Forces in one year. (S.1163, Introduced 6/24/93)

In 1996, Kerry Introduced Bill To Slash Defense Department Funding By $6.5 Billion.

In 1995, Kerry Voted To Freeze Defense Spending For 7 Years, Slashing Over $34 Billion From Defense

Summary: John Kerry Can’t Makeover His Weak Record on National Security.

[Zil]

Don't forget his "No" vote for the $87 billion to outift and re-supply our troops in Iraq and Afghanistan. Or did he vote yes? With all his "I voted for it before I voted against it" rhetoric, I guess you can't really criticise his voting record. :devil:

[techs]

Don't forget his "No" vote for the $87 billion to outift and re-supply our troops in Iraq and Afghanistan. Or did he vote yes? With all his "I voted for it before I voted against it" rhetoric, I guess you can't really criticise his voting record. :devil:

Do you know the history of that exactly?

[jitBob]

From John Edwards: (http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/07/28/dems.edwards.transcript/index.html)


Excuse while I stop laughing.

John Kerry is Weak on National Defense. (http://www.georgewbush.com/News/Read.aspx?ID=3081)



Summary: John Kerry Can’t Makeover His Weak Record on National Security.


Bwaaahhhaaa Bwaaahhhaaa, Like I'm going to believe anything from the georgewbush website, give me a break!


If he can lie flat out to the world, how could he not lie in text?

Really. Give up the party line and think for yourself.

[JaxSon]

If Bush and Co. are such big liars as you seem to think they are, why haven't they manufactured some evidence to "prove" that there were WMD's? Seems to me that they would have done that to justify themselves if they are really the bad people that you seem to believe that they are.

But the fact that they have been above board and honest about everything should tell you something about them.

And, I don't mind refering you to GWB's website. It is a professional looking site and is well run. A lot better than any of the cr*p that techs keeps putting in his moronic signature.

[Cleetus]

If Bush and Co. are such big liars as you seem to think they are, why haven't they manufactured some evidence to "prove" that there were WMD's? Seems to me that they would have done that to justify themselves if they are really the bad people that seem to believe that they are.

But the fact that they are been above board and honest about everything should tell you something about them.

And, I don't mind refering you to GWB's website. It is a professional looking site and is well run. A lot better than any of the cr*p that techs keeps putting in his moronic signature.
Oh you mean like finding "a shell", then getting all of their talking heads to jump up and down shouting as loud as they can that they did exist because of the one shell, push it then on the rest of the media not to discuss the fact that there was only one found, and knowing that the american people will eat it up, all the while blaming the "liberal" media and others of being traitors and un-American if they do not buy into this line of reasoning with such a loud, mouth foaming passion that would make their forefathers at Salem green with envy....

Or hey, am I just seeing ghosts and wmd's around?

[jitBob]

If Bush and Co. are such big liars as you seem to think they are, why haven't they manufactured some evidence to "prove" that there were WMD's? Seems to me that they would have done that to justify themselves if they are really the bad people that you seem to believe that they are.

But the fact that they have been above board and honest about everything should tell you something about them.

And, I don't mind refering you to GWB's website. It is a professional looking site and is well run. A lot better than any of the cr*p that techs keeps putting in his moronic signature.
There are too many eyes in Iraq and every WMD has it's own unique signature. Very difficult to fake. If you are going to try and refer me to Bush's website at least give fair warning will ya?

Honestly I believe that GWB is doing his best. The problem is that his best is not good enough. I and very many others like find him to be wanting. He is a my way or the highway sort of fellow and has lost track of the true American way and of the values I have grown up with as a true born American citizen. Any one who leads a country with true separation of church and state who claims that God works through him is enough to scare most thinking Americans. The fact that he would say this as justification to do his own agenda is terrifying to me and to most of the world.

As has been stated in this forum many times before: he promised "no child left behind" and then cut the programs budget by 88 million, removed police from the streets and gave tax cuts to the wealthy. Are you better off under his administration? Has he kept his promises to the country? How many generations of your family will it take to pay off the debts he is incurring?

My answers are that no, I am not better off than I was. I'm just damn lucky I didn't go downhill like so many others here did. As a student activist in the 60's I learned not to believe those in power, to challenge authority and to seek the truth in this world. There never has been, nor ever will be a leader who is completely honest or faithfull to his constituants. This current one is just worse than any since Nixon in his leading misdirections and bullheadedness. Seek the truth. Never follow blindly. Allow your passions a home that fulfills your humanity.

[techs]

There are too many eyes in Iraq and every WMD has it's own unique signature. Very difficult to fake. If you are going to try and refer me to Bush's website at least give fair warning will ya?

Honestly I believe that GWB is doing his best. The problem is that his best is not good enough. I and very many others like find him to be wanting. He is a my way or the highway sort of fellow and has lost track of the true American way and of the values I have grown up with as a true born American citizen. Any one who leads a country with true separation of church and state who claims that God works through him is enough to scare most thinking Americans. The fact that he would say this as justification to do his own agenda is terrifying to me and to most of the world.

As has been stated in this forum many times before: he promised "no child left behind" and then cut the programs budget by 88 million, removed police from the streets and gave tax cuts to the wealthy. Are you better off under his administration? Has he kept his promises to the country? How many generations of your family will it take to pay off the debts he is incurring?

My answers are that no, I am not better off than I was. I'm just damn lucky I didn't go downhill like so many others here did. As a student activist in the 60's I learned not to believe those in power, to challenge authority and to seek the truth in this world. There never has been, nor ever will be a leader who is completely honest or faithfull to his constituants. This current one is just worse than any since Nixon in his leading misdirections and bullheadedness. Seek the truth. Never follow blindly. Allow your passions a home that fulfills your humanity.

That was beautiful.

and Zil I am still waiting for any link explaining exactly what he voted against. Seems NO ONE ever has one. Because if you knew the true story it would show he voted against the second bill after Bush went back on his word.
So I am waiting.

[Escape_Driver]

Ya Bush does remind me of Nixon !!

[Zil]

That was beautiful.

and Zil I am still waiting for any link explaining exactly what he voted against. Seems NO ONE ever has one. Because if you knew the true story it would show he voted against the second bill after Bush went back on his word.
So I am waiting.


Here ya go:

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/WNT/Politics/tapper_kerry_040319-1.html

From Kerry's own mouth:

Asked if he would vote against the $87 billion if his amendment did not pass, Kerry said, "I don't think any United States senator is going to abandon our troops and recklessly leave Iraq to whatever follows as a result of simply cutting and running. That's irresponsible."

Bonus:
Fellow Democrat Joe Liebermann had to say about it:

"In a Democratic presidential debate, Sen. Joe Lieberman, D-Conn., who also voted for the funding, said, "I don't know how John Kerry and John Edwards can say they supported the war but then opposed the funding for the troops who went to fight the war that the resolution that they supported authorized."


Regardless of tax cuts are removed or whatever, that doesn't excuse any "protest" vote which would not help our troops over in Iraq/Afghanistan.

The fact is, Kerry's vote against this bill is on the record. You can give all the reasons and excuses for this and that, but the man voted it down.

[techs]

I thought I would have to show you some links but it is right there.

On the Sept. 14, 2003, edition of CBS's Face the Nation, Kerry spoke at length about an amendment he and Sen. Joe Biden, D-Del., were offering which would have paid for the $87 billion by delaying some of the recent tax cuts

Kerry argued that his amendment offered a way to do it properly, "but I don't think anyone in the Congress is going to not give our troops ammunition, not give our troops the ability to be able to defend themselves. We're not going to cut and run and not do the job."

At the time of the October 2003 vote, "The nation had four months before funds were needed but Republicans were hell-bent on moving this bill through as quickly as possible, before the tough questions could be asked and the president's failures would be discovered,"

So with 4 months to go and the President rushing the vote before the facts were known and the bill overwhelmingly certain of passing Kerry did an extremely brave thing. He protested the rush to war without all the facts. He knew the vote would pass (in fact it did overwhelmingly).
And guess what? He was 100 percent right that we needed more info and that the President was rushing us to war.

Joe Lieberman? Your "quote" had no link but I seem to recall Joe was running against Kerry at the time. And Joe is at the conventions supporting the heroic and correct John Kerry.

Talk about toughness. Way to go Kerry.
Wisdom and toughness.

[Zil]

I thought I would have to show you some links but it is right there.

On the Sept. 14, 2003, edition of CBS's Face the Nation, Kerry spoke at length about an amendment he and Sen. Joe Biden, D-Del., were offering which would have paid for the $87 billion by delaying some of the recent tax cuts

Kerry argued that his amendment offered a way to do it properly, "but I don't think anyone in the Congress is going to not give our troops ammunition, not give our troops the ability to be able to defend themselves. We're not going to cut and run and not do the job."

At the time of the October 2003 vote, "The nation had four months before funds were needed but Republicans were hell-bent on moving this bill through as quickly as possible, before the tough questions could be asked and the president's failures would be discovered,"

So with 4 months to go and the President rushing the vote before the facts were known and the bill overwhelmingly certain of passing Kerry did an extremely brave thing. He protested the rush to war without all the facts. He knew the vote would pass (in fact it did overwhelmingly).
And guess what? He was 100 percent right that we needed more info and that the President was rushing us to war.

Joe Lieberman? Your "quote" had no link but I seem to recall Joe was running against Kerry at the time. And Joe is at the conventions supporting the heroic and correct John Kerry.

Talk about toughness. Way to go Kerry.
Wisdom and toughness.

Again, more excuses blaming the Republicans for Mr. Kerry basically wasting his vote.

The right thing to do would be to vote (regardless of the cost) to fund anything that would help our troops in battle. PERIOD

[techs]

Again, more excuses blaming the Republicans for Mr. Kerry basically wasting his vote.

The right thing to do would be to vote (regardless of the cost) to fund anything that would help our troops in battle. PERIOD

With the President and both Houses of Congress Republican there is absolutely no excuse.
check this out:
"When it comes to choosing a president, results matter," Bush said in excerpts of his new stump speech obtained by The Associated Press.

Why that would be you George Bush. So you are responsible for the troops not having lifesaving equipment.
Results matter. You're right.

[Zil]

With the President and both Houses of Congress Republican there is absolutely no excuse.
check this out:
"When it comes to choosing a president, results matter," Bush said in excerpts of his new stump speech obtained by The Associated Press.

Why that would be you George Bush. So you are responsible for the troops not having lifesaving equipment.
Results matter. You're right.

And now they have it, no thanks to your candidate.

And again, you blame Bush! Look at your own candidate and his stupid voting record!!!!


EDIT: Your candidate gave a very good speech tonite, kudos.

[Cleetus]

Again, more excuses blaming the Republicans for Mr. Kerry basically wasting his vote.

The right thing to do would be to vote (regardless of the cost) to fund anything that would help our troops in battle. PERIOD
You mean like all of our libertarians wasting their votes on conscience?

[Major Kong]

You mean like all of our libertarians wasting their votes on conscience?

I didn't know we had elected a US Senator??? :confused: Kewl... :cool: :thumbs: :thumbs: But who is he/she? :confused: ;)

[jitBob]

John Kerry jabs at the administration:

"I will be a commander in chief who will never mislead us into war. I will have a vice president who will not conduct secret meetings with polluters to rewrite our environmental laws. I will have a secretary of Defense who will listen to the best advice of our military leaders. And I will appoint an Attorney General who actually upholds the Constitution of the United States."

http://forums.windrivers.com/images/smilies/sagrin.gif

[techs]

I just want to see my name as the last poster in ever thread in Politicos.