Are we at war? With terrorism or whomever. Or, are we not?

[TripleRLtd]

Since so much of the political debate here brings up Iraq, I would like you all to consider this and then decide. I previously brought this up in another thread at the end and it didn't get viewed, so I will bring it up again:


I am not sure if this email I received today is an urban legend or not (couldn't find it on Snopes), but that makes no difference since the timeline is indeed factual, So, here goes:

"U.S. Navy Captain Ouimette is the Executive Officer at Naval Air Station,
Pensacola, Florida. Here is a copy of the speech he gave last month. It
is an accurate account of why we are in so much trouble today and why this
action is so necessary.

AMERICA NEEDS TO WAKE UP!
That's what we think we heard on the 11th of September 2001 (When more
than 3,000 Americans were killed -AD) and maybe it was, but I think it should
have been "Get Out of Bed!" In fact, I think the alarm clock has been
buzzing since 1979 and we have continued to hit the snooze button and
roll over for a few more minutes of peaceful sleep since then.
It was a cool fall day in November 1979 in a country going through a
religious and political upheaval when a group of Iranian students
attacked and seized the American Embassy in Tehran. This seizure was an outright attack on American soil; it was an attack that held the world's most
powerful country hostage and paralyzed a Presidency. The attack on this
sovereign U. S. embassy set the stage for events to follow for the next
23 years.
America was still reeling from the aftermath of the Vietnam experience
and had a serious threat from the Soviet Union when then, President Carter,
had to do something. He chose to conduct a clandestine raid in the desert.
The ill-fated mission ended in ruin, but stood as a symbol of America's
inability to deal with terrorism.
America's military had been decimated and downsized/right sized since the
end of the Vietnam War. A poorly trained, poorly equipped and poorly
organized military was called on to execute a complex mission that was
doomed from the start.
Shortly after the Tehran experience, Americans began to be kidnapped and
killed throughout the Middle East. America could do little to protect her
citizens living and working abroad. The attacks against US soil
continued.
In April of 1983 a large vehicle packed with high explosives was driven
into the US Embassy compound in Beirut. When it explodes, it kills 63 people.
The alarm went off again and America hit the Snooze Button once more.
Then just six short months later a large truck heavily laden down with
over 2500 pounds of TNT smashed through the main gate of the US Marine Corps headquarters in Beirut and 241 US servicemen are killed. America mourns her dead and hit the Snooze Button once more.
Two months later in December 1983, another truck loaded with explosives
is driven into the US Embassy in Kuwait, and America continues her slumber.
The following year, in September 1984, another van was driven into the
gates of the US Embassy in Beirut and America slept.
Soon the terrorism spreads to Europe. In April 1985 a bomb explodes in a
restaurant frequented by US soldiers in Madrid.
Then in August a Volkswagen loaded with explosives is driven into the
main gate of the US Air Force Base at Rhein-Main, 22 are killed and the snooze alarm is buzzing louder and louder as US interests are continually
attacked.
Fifty-nine days later a cruise ship, the Achille Lauro is hijacked and we
watched as an American in a wheelchair is singled out of the passenger
list and executed.
The terrorists then shift their tactics to bombing civilian airliners
when they bomb TWA Flight 840 in April of 1986 that killed 4 and the most
tragic bombing, Pan Am Flight 103 over Lockerbie, Scotland in 1988, killing 259.
Clinton treated these terrorist acts as crimes; in fact we are still
trying to bring these people to trial. These are acts of war.
The wake up alarm is getting louder and louder. The terrorists decide to
bring the fight to America. In January 1993, two CIA agents are shot and
killed as they enter CIA headquarters in Langley, Virginia.
The following month, February 1993, a group of terrorists are arrested
after a rented van packed with explosives is driven into the underground
parking garage of the World Trade Center in New York City. Six people are
killed and over 1000 are injured. Still this is a crime and not an act of war?
The Snooze alarm is depressed again. Then in November 1995 a car bomb
explodes at a US military complex in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia killing seven
service men and women.
A few months later in June of 1996, another truck bomb explodes only 35
yards from the US military compound in Dhahran, Saudi Arabia. It destroys
the Khobar Towers, a US Air Force barracks, killing 19 and injuring over
500. The terrorists are getting braver and smarter as they see that
America does not respond decisively.
They move to coordinate their attacks in a simultaneous attack on two US
embassies in Kenya and Tanzania. These attacks were planned with
precision.They kill 224. America responds with cruise missile attacks and goes back to sleep.
The USS Cole was docked in the port of Aden, Yemen for refueling on 12
October 2000, when a small craft pulled along side the ship and exploded
killing 17 US Navy Sailors. Attacking a US War Ship is an act of war, but
we sent the FBI to investigate the crime and went back to sleep.
And of course you know the events of 11 September 2001. Most Americans
think this was the first attack against US soil or in America. How wrong they
are. America has been under a constant attack since 1979 and we chose to hit the snooze alarm and roll over and go back to sleep.
In the news lately we have seen lots of finger pointing from every high
officials in government over what they knew and what they didn't know.
But if you've read the papers and paid a little attention I think you can see
exactly what they knew. You don't have to be in the FBI or CIA or on the
National Security Council to see the pattern that has been developing
since 1979.
The President is right on when he says we are engaged in a war. I think
we have been in a war for the past 23 years and it will continue until we as
a people decide enough is enough.
America needs to "Get out of Bed" and act decisively now. America has
been changed forever. We have to be ready to pay the price and make the
sacrifice to ensure our way of life continues. We cannot afford to keep hitting the snooze button again and again and roll over and go back to sleep.
After the attack on Pearl Harbor, Admiral Yamamoto said "...it seems all
we have done is awakened a sleeping giant." This is the message we need to
disseminate to terrorists around the world.
Support Our Troops and support President Bush for having the courage,
political or militarily, to address what so many who preceded him didn't
have the backbone to do both Democrat and Republican. This is not a
political thing to be hashed over in an election year this is an AMERICAN
thing. This is about our Freedom and the Freedom of our children in years
to come."

[techs]

Good question.
The term war might not actually be appropriate since we are not opposed by any other nation. We are in an ideological battle with extremist Muslims. Their goal is to spread their "gospel". To use a phrase, "Win the hearts and minds" Terrorism has proved a useful tool in 2 ways:
1) It shows how a single indvidual or small groups can make a large impact thereby substituting for a large national military. This gives them validity as a force to be reckoned with (after all if Osama just hosted hate conferences who would have noticed)
2) It has provoked a response from the US that has furthered their goals by encouraging more people to turn to their radical views which enlarges their support.

Much like Israel we are getting caught up in the attack-retaliate-which provokes more attacks mode. Palestinian terrorists conduct recruitment drives by suicide bombings. Which provoke an Israeli response which in turn creates more recruits.

Terrorism was considered a "low-intensity" war until 9-11. With all due sympathy to the victims of 9-11, for a "war' 3000 people is a very low number for an isolated incidence considering you have to go back to 1993 to see another attack on our soil.
We are in a Cold War with hot flashes much like the original Cold War.

So whether you use the term war or police action the difference of 9-11 is that it happened here. And when you consider the nature of this conflict it will not be won by invading countries (see the attack-response scenario).
It will take statesmanship to rally governments and people to make the terrorists politically and socially outcasts. It will take police work and the efforts of average citizens the world over to find and stop these terrorists as often as possible.
I honestly don't know if this will work, but the Israelis have proven their methods do not end the conflict.

[RejectionMan]

Worlds greatest terrorist threat: George W. Bush Jr. and the U.S.A.

What about the rights and freedoms of everyone thats not an American? Why should the american way be thrust down the throat of all other nations?

[TripleRLtd]

Did you actually read the timeline RM? Seems to me we have been getting attacked now, off and on, for 25 years!! BTW, not just us! What the terrorists do now is take a few hostages form any couunty that supports the coalition and demand they leave or they behead the captives.
Or, they threaten to have blood flowing in the streets of Australia (last week), Italy, Spain (where they literally pulled that off), Japan....
The list just keeps on getting longer. What if next it was Canada? Would your tune change then?

[RejectionMan]

funny you should mention Canada.

here goes my review of the last couple of decades seing US as a terroist threat (most of this probaly has inacuracys becasue im typing this off the top of my head):

US overthrows democraticaly elected government in Chile installing Pinoche as dictator. Said dictator then refuses orders from CIA and US has him taken out. thousands of chilians just disappear.

US provides weapons and training to Afganistan to stop USSR takeover (Osama Binladin trained by CIA to kill Russians)

US provides weapons to Iraq to fight the Sh'a of Iran. Sadam trained by CIA to kill Iranians, Sadam comes into power

US provides weapons to Iran to fight Sadam 10 year war breaks out

US backs Jewish clames to the "holy land" at the end of WWII assists in over throw of British forces keeping the peace in Palistine and set up the Jewish state of Israel. Palistinian people displaced.

US nucular defence plans calls for the destuction of inbound missiles and bombers crossing over the north poll well before the cross the 49th parrell (aka north of the US/Canada border).

It seemsto me that almost all of these attacks are the result of the US pissing in someone elses pool because they could. Now people in these places are pissed off and taking action. (actions of the past are coming back to bite you)

[techs]

funny you should mention Canada.

here goes my review of the last couple of decades seing US as a terroist threat (most of this probaly has inacuracys becasue im typing this off the top of my head):

US overthrows democraticaly elected government in Chile installing Pinoche as dictator. Said dictator then refuses orders from CIA and US has him taken out. thousands of chilians just disappear.

US provides weapons and training to Afganistan to stop USSR takeover (Osama Binladin trained by CIA to kill Russians)

US provides weapons to Iraq to fight the Sh'a of Iran. Sadam trained by CIA to kill Iranians, Sadam comes into power

US provides weapons to Iran to fight Sadam 10 year war breaks out

US backs Jewish clames to the "holy land" at the end of WWII assists in over throw of British forces keeping the peace in Palistine and set up the Jewish state of Israel. Palistinian people displaced.

US nucular defence plans calls for the destuction of inbound missiles and bombers crossing over the north poll well before the cross the 49th parrell (aka north of the US/Canada border).

It seemsto me that almost all of these attacks are the result of the US pissing in someone elses pool because they could. Now people in these places are pissed off and taking action. (actions of the past are coming back to bite you)

HEY RejectionMan DON'T YOU KNOW THAT AMERICA IS THE GREATEST, FREE-EST, MOST PEACE LOVING, WARM, CUDDLY, TOLERANT, OPEN MINDED, DEMOCRATIC, FAIREST AND OPEN COUNTRY IN THE WHOLE UNIVERSE?

If you have problem with that we have a few thousand nukes that should change your mind.

America- Love us or Die.
:)

[WebHead]

...Why should the american way be thrust down the throat of all other nations?


Very good question. I ask myself that same question all the time.

[Titchski]

What about the rights and freedoms of everyone thats not an American? Why should the american way be thrust down the throat of all other nations?

You're a consumer right? I mean, you don't grow your own food, provide your own fuel, walk everywhere (or ride a horse) that sort of thing.

In which case U.S.A. Inc. wants you to be a democracy loving, over-eating, over-spending, over-reliant on the products that U.S.A. Inc. can export from somewhere and then reimport to your country. If you perhaps don't buy enough of U.S.A. Inc's products, then they'll slap a huge tariff on products that you send to U.S.A. Incs employees, erm, sorry citizens.

Of course, if you still thumb your nose at U.S.A. Inc then they'll send their "sales force" to convert you.

Thats an extremely cynical viewpoint of course, and does not reflect what may or may not be happening. I'll let you know this is happening when I wake up one morning and find a barcode on my arse.

Cheers :thumbs:

Oh, and have a nice day!

[WebHead]

We can do better,... help is on the way.

[imaeditedbysowulo]

You're a consumer right? I mean, you don't grow your own food, provide your own fuel, walk everywhere (or ride a horse) that sort of thing.

In which case U.S.A. Inc. wants you to be a democracy loving, over-eating, over-spending, over-reliant on the products that U.S.A. Inc. can export from somewhere and then reimport to your country. If you perhaps don't buy enough of U.S.A. Inc's products, then they'll slap a huge tariff on products that you send to U.S.A. Incs employees, erm, sorry citizens.

Of course, if you still thumb your nose at U.S.A. Inc then they'll send their "sales force" to convert you.

Thats an extremely cynical viewpoint of course, and does not reflect what may or may not be happening. I'll let you know this is happening when I wake up one morning and find a barcode on my arse.

Cheers :thumbs:

Oh, and have a nice day!

We don't need barcodes, they can just implant a chip now.

[TripleRLtd]

You're a consumer right? I mean, you don't grow your own food, provide your own fuel, walk everywhere (or ride a horse) that sort of thing.

In which case U.S.A. Inc. wants you to be a democracy loving, over-eating, over-spending, over-reliant on the products that U.S.A. Inc. can export from somewhere and then reimport to your country. If you perhaps don't buy enough of U.S.A. Inc's products, then they'll slap a huge tariff on products that you send to U.S.A. Incs employees, erm, sorry citizens.

Of course, if you still thumb your nose at U.S.A. Inc then they'll send their "sales force" to convert you.

Thats an extremely cynical viewpoint of course, and does not reflect what may or may not be happening. I'll let you know this is happening when I wake up one morning and find a barcode on my arse.

Cheers :thumbs:

Oh, and have a nice day!You too 'ski!http://forums.windrivers.com/images/smilies/thumbs.gif
BTW: we had a really good tutor:
the British Empire!!! Remember that? How conveniant that you NOW forget!!
The age of empires was culminatied and made "perfect" http://forums.windrivers.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif by the "so called" British Empire!!
Supposedly, we (the US/UK sxis) are only a continuation of the British Empire, and YOUR insistence on controlling people, economies, ports, and access points to important places!! Oh, by the way, that does not include turning people's minds around!
Remember the "White Man's Burden"??? DO NOT even try, as a Brit, to act all superior here!!
We learned from YOU!
May we be forgiven!!!
http://forums.windrivers.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif


BTW
We can contiune this during our golf course excursion tomorrow.http://forums.windrivers.com/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

[Jediab]

While I agree with ya RRR, I think it comes down to this. The people of the US and the world have become weak in resolve, quick to forget, and desencitized to violence in general. With the local and world violence, the violence in movies, and the sucks to be them attitude most people have, it is easy to not care until it hits you right in the face.

So over time when some Americans are attacked in Europe or the Middle east, most people think, "Well that's bad that happened. That affects me how?" Then they go back to their lives like the events thousands of miles away never happened. They never think about it's future consequences. They never think about how it might affect their children. They never think about how the past leads to the present to prepare them for the future. Most people only think about the present.

In closing, I include myself in many of the things I talked about.

[TripleRLtd]

While I agree with ya RRR, I think it comes down to this. The people of the US and the world have become weak in resolve, quick to forget, and desencitized to violence in general. With the local and world violence, the violence in movies, and the sucks to be them attitude most people have, it is easy to not care until it hits you right in the face.

So over time when some Americans are attacked in Europe or the Middle east, most people think, "Well that's bad that happened. That affects me how?" Then they go back to their lives like the events thousands of miles away never happened. They never think about it's future consequences. They never think about how it might affect their children. They never think about how the past leads to the present to prepare them for the future. Most people only think about the present.

In closing, I include myself in many of the things I talked about.So, deep down, you are agreeing with the guy I quoted, right?
AMERICA NEEDS TO WAKE UP!

Or, does the WORLD need to wake up???
Think about it!! Think about their tactics!! Think about what THEY do!!
Think about the people THEY kill!!! And why they do it!!!

[TripleRLtd]

Let me summarize for those who care not to read a long post::http://forums.windrivers.com/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

>It was a cool fall day in November 1979 in a country going through a
religious and political upheaval when a group of Iranian students
attacked and seized the American Embassy in Tehran. This seizure was an outright attack on American soil; it was an attack that held the world's most
powerful country hostage and paralyzed a Presidency. The attack on this
sovereign U. S. embassy set the stage for events to follow for the next
23 years.

>Then, President Carter,
had to do something. He chose to conduct a clandestine raid in the desert.
The ill-fated mission ended in ruin, but stood as a symbol of America's
inability to deal with terrorism.
>Shortly after the Tehran experience, Americans began to be kidnapped and
killed throughout the Middle East. America could do little to protect her
citizens living and working abroad. The attacks against US soil
continued.

>In April of 1983 a large vehicle packed with high explosives was driven
into the US Embassy compound in Beirut. When it explodes, it kills 63 people.
.
>Then just six short months later a large truck heavily laden down with
over 2500 pounds of TNT smashed through the main gate of the US Marine Corps headquarters in Beirut and 241 US servicemen are killed.

>Two months later in December 1983, another truck loaded with explosives
is driven into the US Embassy in Kuwait!

>The following year, in September 1984, another van was driven into the
gates of the US Embassy in Beirut.

>Soon the terrorism spreads to Europe. In April 1985 a bomb explodes in a
restaurant frequented by US soldiers in Madrid.
>Then in August a Volkswagen loaded with explosives is driven into the
main gate of the US Air Force Base at Rhein-Main, 22 are killed!

>Fifty-nine days later a cruise ship, the Achille Lauro is hijacked and we
watched as an American in a wheelchair is singled out of the passenger
list and executed.

>The terrorists then shift their tactics to bombing civilian airliners
when they bomb TWA Flight 840 in April of 1986 that killed 4 and the most
tragic bombing, Pan Am Flight 103 over Lockerbie, Scotland in 1988, killing 259.

These are acts of war!!!!


> The terrorists decide to
bring the fight to America. In January 1993, two CIA agents are shot and
killed as they enter CIA headquarters in Langley, Virginia.

>The following month, February 1993, a group of terrorists are arrested
after a rented van packed with explosives is driven into the underground
parking garage of the World Trade Center in New York City. Six people are
killed and over 1000 are injured. Still this is a crime and not an act of war?

>Then in November 1995 a car bomb
explodes at a US military complex in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia killing seven
service men and women.

>A few months later in June of 1996, another truck bomb explodes only 35
yards from the US military compound in Dhahran, Saudi Arabia. It destroys
the Khobar Towers, a US Air Force barracks, killing 19 and injuring over
500.

>,,, a simultaneous attack on two US
embassies in Kenya and Tanzania. These attacks were planned with
precision.They kill 224. America responds with cruise missile attacks ]

>The USS Cole was docked in the port of Aden, Yemen for refueling on 12
October 2000, when a small craft pulled along side the ship and exploded
killing 17 US Navy Sailors. Attacking a US War Ship is an act of war.

>And of course you know the events of 11 September 2001. Most Americans
think this was the first attack against US soil or in America. How wrong they
are

>. America has been under a constant attack since 1979 !!!!

There!! So what do really think?? NOW??

[silencio]

We've been at war since 1946. Go play some chess.

[TripleRLtd]

We've been at war since 1946. Go play some chess.Why '46 silence? The cold war? Do you really think this is a continuation of that?
Or, the remapping of the Middle East? Geesh, that was a given! That map has always been in "flux". Geesh, since Biblical days! Can't blame that on the 20th century...that was bound to happen.
So: what are you saying?
PS
If you want to play chess with me, I'm game.http://forums.windrivers.com/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

[techs]

Posted by TripleRLtd with my responses:
>It was a cool fall day in November 1979 in a country going through a
religious and political upheaval when a group of Iranian students
attacked and seized the American Embassy in Tehran. This seizure was an outright attack on American soil; it was an attack that held the world's most
powerful country hostage and paralyzed a Presidency. The attack on this
sovereign U. S. embassy set the stage for events to follow for the next
23 years.

It fails to mention we overthrew their government and put our guy the Shah back into power. We then supported him while he terrorized his own people with torture that was very similiar to Saddams. So who attacked who first?

>Then, President Carter,
had to do something. He chose to conduct a clandestine raid in the desert.
The ill-fated mission ended in ruin, but stood as a symbol of America's
inability to deal with terrorism.
>Shortly after the Tehran experience, Americans began to be kidnapped and
killed throughout the Middle East. America could do little to protect her
citizens living and working abroad.

If you change it to President Bush and attacking Iraq you have the exact same situation now with Americas inability to stop kidnapping and killings of Americans.

>. America has been under a constant attack since 1979 !!!!

While even one is too many lets look at the casualties from this war.
From your post there were 276 people killed in this war from 1979 to 2000. While even one is to many it averages out to about 13 people per year. If you include 2001 (9-1) its 149 a year. So is it a war?

[Jediab]

Posted by TripleRLtd with my responses:


It fails to mention we overthrew their government and put our guy the Shah back into power. We then supported him while he terrorized his own people with torture that was very similiar to Saddams. So who attacked who first?

Are you saying that after the hostages were taken or released we put the Shah back into power? Or are you saying we put the Shah into power before the crisis?

[techs]

Are you saying that after the hostages were taken or released we put the Shah back into power? Or are you saying we put the Shah into power before the crisis?

No we put the Shah back into power way before the hostages. I am not saying it was right to take hostages. Of course it is wrong. I just pointed out we attacked them first (we overthrew their government) and we ruled them thru our proxy the Shah.
I wonder how you would feel if the United States governmetn was overthrown by China and they put their guy in charge for 30 years and he tortured and maimed us.
So we actually started the war with Iran first.

[Jediab]

No we put the Shah back into power way before the hostages. I am not saying it was right to take hostages. Of course it is wrong. I just pointed out we attacked them first (we overthrew their government) and we ruled them thru our proxy the Shah.
I wonder how you would feel if the United States governmetn was overthrown by China and they put their guy in charge for 30 years and he tortured and maimed us.
So we actually started the war with Iran first.


Why do you keep asking stupid hypothetical questions like this? Do you really love terrorism so much that you have to constantly rebuke anyone who says they are bad? You have to make excuses for them no matter what is said? But how about this? But how about that? But back in.....You are starting to sound like you raked in some of that Food for Oil money from the UN. So to help protect your mealticket, you have to pull a France. Oh wait, you probably think that stuff is a Bush lie too.

And you also are using a classic Mooreism. You said the Shah BACK into power. That implies he was there at least 1 time before. Is Mooreon your leftist politcal speech Hate America mentor?

[techs]

Why do you keep asking stupid hypothetical questions like this? Do you really love terrorism so much that you have to constantly rebuke anyone who says they are bad? You have to make excuses for them no matter what is said? But how about this? But how about that? But back in.....You are starting to sound like you raked in some of that Food for Oil money from the UN. So to help protect your mealticket, you have to pull a France. Oh wait, you probably think that stuff is a Bush lie too.

And you also are using a classic Mooreism. You said the Shah BACK into power. That implies he was there at least 1 time before. Is Mooreon your leftist politcal speech Hate America mentor?


You said the Shah BACK into power. That implies he was there at least 1 time before.
Guess you never picked up a history book:
Mohammed Reza Pahlavi was the shah of Iran from 1941 to 1979, except for a brief period in 1953 when Prime Minister Muhammed Mosaddeq overthrew him. Mosaddeq was in turn overthrown with assistance from the U.S., and the shah was returned to power as a U.S. ally.

Do you really love terrorism so much that you have to constantly rebuke anyone who says they are bad?
I never ONCE said terrorists are not bad. I am trying to show WHY they do what they do. Our ignorant President says terrrorists attack us because they hate our freedom.
I believe most of them hate us for our ACTIONS.
Just the fact that despite such a famous historical episode like the taking of the hostages most people don't know this simple historical fact about the Shah proves my point.
I DO equate the actions of the American government with terrorists. Before you go flaming look up how many governments we aided and supported while they terrorized and killed their own people. Just because its a government doesn't mean its NOT terrorism.
Right wing paramilitary hit squads supported by governments was just one of the terrorist groups we supported.


You are starting to sound like you raked in some of that Food for Oil money from the UN
Nope, didn't get any of that money. But Bush is now COVERING it up. The congressional investigation of this has gone public criticizing Bushes refusal to provide info. And criticizing the US lack of pursuit of the truth about the Oil for Food program. The Republican congress.

And you also are using a classic Mooreism.
He's a classic now?

[Zil]

You are starting to sound like you raked in some of that Food for Oil money from the UN
Nope, didn't get any of that money. But Bush is now COVERING it up. The congressional investigation of this has gone public criticizing Bushes refusal to provide info. And criticizing the US lack of pursuit of the truth about the Oil for Food program. The Republican congress.


Keep shoveling that cow manure!

[Cleetus]

Why do you keep asking stupid hypothetical questions like this? Do you really love terrorism so much that you have to constantly rebuke anyone who says they are bad? You have to make excuses for them no matter what is said? But how about this? But how about that? But back in.....You are starting to sound like you raked in some of that Food for Oil money from the UN. So to help protect your mealticket, you have to pull a France. Oh wait, you probably think that stuff is a Bush lie too.

And you also are using a classic Mooreism. You said the Shah BACK into power. That implies he was there at least 1 time before. Is Mooreon your leftist politcal speech Hate America mentor?
Translation: I hate you because you disagree with me so now I must spew hate

[Jediab]

Translation: I hate you because you disagree with me so now I must spew hate

Wow talk about the pot calling the kettle black of however that phrase goes.

But hey what else would I expect from Cleet? :devil:

[Cleetus]

Wow talk about the pot calling the kettle black of however that phrase goes.

But hey what else would I expect from Cleet? :devil:
The truth and nothing but the truth :thumbs2:

[Duke of Rezin]

No we put the Shah back into power way before the hostages. I am not saying it was right to take hostages. Of course it is wrong. I just pointed out we attacked them first (we overthrew their government) and we ruled them thru our proxy the Shah.
I wonder how you would feel if the United States governmetn was overthrown by China and they put their guy in charge for 30 years and he tortured and maimed us.
So we actually started the war with Iran first.


Uh, I think that happened with Clinton. Remember the Lincoln room? Remember Gore visiting the China-affiliated Buddhist temple for a casual "visit" and walking out with half a million dollars? Remember letting China into the WTO (which incidentally cost me my most recent job as it was outsorced to the People's Republic). The only reason Ken Starr never caught them on all that was that the Clinton administration was masterful at lying and shredding documents.

[silencio]

Uh, I think that happened with Clinton. Remember the Lincoln room? Remember Gore visiting the China-affiliated Buddhist temple for a casual "visit" and walking out with half a million dollars? Remember letting China into the WTO (which incidentally cost me my most recent job as it was outsorced to the People's Republic). The only reason Ken Starr never caught them on all that was that the Clinton administration was masterful at lying and shredding documents.
Mmm, Kent Star knew about that because he was a klinton plant sent to divert attention away from the murder of James Mcdougal. Do your research there. The whole monica thing was as wagging tail.