Why we should tax the rich more.

[techs]

Here's my thinking. The rich in the US get the best deal on the planet. During the Clinton years rich people didn't leave the country. We have the lowest taxes on the rich of any developed country. Rich people from around the world came here durning The Clinton years. No one left the US for a better deal elsewhere. How many rich people are moving to say, Tanzania, which might not tax the rich at all? None. Becuase they want to live in a country with health care, pollution standards, civil rights, strong defense, legal system based on laws and political stability. The Bush tax cut for the rich did not attract new rich people to America.
Now to the person who became rich in America due to hard work and brains. Say the guy who founded the no frills airline JetBlu( I am just using this as an example). He had an idea to cut costs dramatically and he would gain enough passengers to make money and he did. Could he have done it in England, France or Germany? Probably not. They have laws about competition, unions, etc that would have prevented it. In Ireland there is an airline called Ryannair which copied JetBlue. Bet that guy didn't make much in a small country like Ireland. So in America you can make far more money with the same innovation and ideas.
And if the rich don't like the taxes here they can leave.
As to the people who inherited fortunes many of them go back to the Carnegies and the Rockefellers. Fortunes made on the graves of workers and the formation of monopolies. But in America we don't take your money just cause you have it. So I don't see the old rich leaving America.
As to a doctor in the US who got rich thru hard work. I ask how much we he have made in England or Canada with the same hard work? Not much. Because he makes a ton more in the US. So he should shut up and pay his taxes.
At the 39 percent we taxed the wealthiest under Clinton our economy boomed. We had the lowest taxes on the rich in the developed world. Under the Bush tax plan I don't see any increase in wealthy people coming to America.
Lets repeal the tax cut for the top 2 percent. If they don't like it they can leave. I'm betting not one does.

[paraflyer]

So, lemme guess, I take it you're not in the top 2%??????

Would you have the same view if you were?

[Cleetus]

So, lemme guess, I take it you're not in the top 2%??????

Would you have the same view if you were?
I'd just like to be in the top 98%

Not a lot of money in dirt farmin'

[techs]

So, lemme guess, I take it you're not in the top 2%??????

Would you have the same view if you were?

I honestly don't know. I would hope I felt more patriotism than greed. But if they restored the tax brackets we had under Clinton I wouldn't pick up and leave the country.

[Major Kong]

The only solution is to eliminate all taxes, or at least go to a flat tax! http://forums.windrivers.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Actually techs I read in the Wall Street Journal (yes we get month old copies of it in Alaskahttp://forums.windrivers.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif) awhile back that there were over 100,000 American millionaires who left the US in 2002 alone to be expatriated (I heard the # was similar for 2003 too). I can't remember the overall total, but I do know my ex-boss in AZ now lives in Costa Rica - he moved in '99 - he was worth about $6 million (lucky bastage talk about being in the right place at the right time). I'm a thinkin' that the new revision of tax rules on expatriation on folks that was introduced in the House was/is going to close a lot of the loopholes that make it easy for repatriation. Gasp I think it was a Republican who introduced it - I can't remember if he was from California or Arizona though. I just remember he was from the West.

[meatwad]

So the Carnegies and the Rockerfellers never created any jobs so that people could work and get money for food and clothes and a place to live? I agree that the rich should pay more than me in taxes, it's only fair. Imagine my shock and surprise when I discovered...THEY ALREADY DO!

[paraflyer]

Kill the income tax, and go to a consumption-based tax.

That way the rich would be hit every time they buy 12 limosines, and you wouldn't get hit as much when you invest in that new Honda Accord (or whatever your preference).

[jitBob]

Kill the income tax, and go to a consumption-based tax.

That way the rich would be hit every time they buy 12 limosines, and you wouldn't get hit as much when you invest in that new Honda Accord (or whatever your preference).
Already do that in state taxes. Couldn't do it in federal taxes also.

[techs]

Already do that in state taxes. Couldn't do it in federal taxes also.

Just curious. If I buy stocks will I pay sales tax under a flat tax? If not, why?

[pmetal]

Define rich.


Just so I have this right: I bust my butt since I was a teenager, working towards a goal, spending my time, learning and planning for my future, to become successful in my chosen trade/profession. Now you want me and my family to pay more taxes so those who sat on their A$$es, or didn't apply themselves properly can ride my coat-tails?

No thanks.

There will never be this Utopia of equality you seek. Where everyone has the same things. Work hard and you will get your just reward. The "non-rich" seem to think those with money are just "lucky". Now that may be true in some instances, ie inheritances, lottery winners etc..., but a lot more of those with money worked their tails off for it, and they deserve to keep as much of it as possible.

[Cleetus]

And why is it then that the "non-Rich" are always considered lazy, sit on their asses and don't work hard?

[meatwad]

And why is it then that the "non-Rich" are always considered lazy, sit on their asses and don't work hard?

Cause I am, do and don't. :D

[Camaro80z]

Cause I am, do and don't. :D

Dude, you are a giant meat patty. Do you even have an a$$ ? :thumbs2:

[pmetal]

And why is it then that the "non-Rich" are always considered lazy, sit on their asses and don't work hard?
Cleet,
I'm not saying that at all. There are a lot of people in this country who work there butts off and may not be considered "rich".

I think that's why "rich" needs to be defined.

"Rich", to me, does not always mean money. Family, friends, just enjoying life itself is "rich", but you can't tax that.

But you have to admit, there are a LOT of people in this country who are lazy, and don't work hard, and the Government supports this. For no other reason, than to get their communities vote.

Class warfare. Plain and simple. Us against "them". Why should "they" get to have all the nice things and keep "their" money? "I" want some.

Well.......ya can't have mine.

[Cleetus]

"Class warfare" now there is anbother great Republican talking point that means absolutly nothing except for pissing people off even more.

[techs]

To clarify. What I mean as rich is the top 2 percent of this country.
Anyone here qualify (I think that means over 200,000 per year for a single person).

[pmetal]

"Class warfare" now there is anbother great Republican talking point that means absolutly nothing except for pissing people off even more.
But it is class warfare. Else, this topic would never come up. It's the "poor" vs the "rich".

The "poor" get pissed because they don't have the nice things the "rich" have. So you (politicians) attempt to divide the country into classes to get votes. "I will help the working class....blah blah blah".

I work, so am I part of the "working class"? Or because my wife and I make good money, I may be considered part of the evil "rich"?

[TechZ]

In most Asian countries they follow Tax Slabs, which is (in my opinion) the best way. Or find some Oil and never pay tax again, like us. :D

[techs]

In most Asian countries they follow Tax Slabs, which is (in my opinion) the best way. Or find some Oil and never pay tax again, like us. :D

What's a Tax Slab?

[Wayward Clam]

I am divided on this. On the one hand, someone who has worked hard to get rich deserves every penny they have, and doesn't deserve to have to pay huge amounts of taxes.

On the other hand, someone who inherited billions of dollars and has done nothing ever since but spend it on caviar and hookers... do they deserve to even live, much less keep their money?

On the third hand, if you work hard to get rich, don't you have the right to leave it to your kids?

Not sure what to make of this one.

[imaeditedbysowulo]

The problem is that wealthy people would rather spend 50 grand on accountants and lawyers to figure out a way to avoid paying 30 grand in taxes. Avoiding tax is like a sport to these people and there are plenty of loopholes for them to exploit.

I don't have a problem with rich people that pay their taxes, but I do have a problem with rich people that eat family meals and write it off as a business expense or write off their entire vacation as a business expense because they made one business phone call, or have 17 houses that are all owned and paid for by their businesses and are written off as business expenses.

[nunob]

Lets cut welfare.

[imaeditedbysowulo]

Lets cut welfare.

I think we did that a year or two back and the poor aren't any poorer than they were before the cuts, so I'd say it was a success. There's also a huge amount of people living in earned income type apartments where they pay something like 50 bucks a month for rent. We need to scale that stuff way back too, or put a limit on how long you can live in one of those places. Too much money is being wasted in this country.

[techs]

I think we did that a year or two back and the poor aren't any poorer than they were before the cuts, so I'd say it was a success. There's also a huge amount of people living in earned income type apartments where they pay something like 50 bucks a month for rent. We need to scale that stuff way back too, or put a limit on how long you can live in one of those places. Too much money is being wasted in this country.

And how about cutting the soon to be enacted 170 billion dollar tax breaks for businesses?

[imaeditedbysowulo]

And how about cutting the soon to be enacted 170 billion dollar tax breaks for businesses?


I'm for that cut, especially if there are special tax benefits given to people who purchase big SUV's that get 10 miles to the gallon.

I don't give a darn if people want to drive those big ugly things, but they should pay for the gas from their own pocket, my tax dollars should not be filling up CEO's toy cars.

[jstut]

Kill the income tax, and go to a consumption-based tax.

That way the rich would be hit every time they buy 12 limosines, and you wouldn't get hit as much when you invest in that new Honda Accord (or whatever your preference).
AMEN.

Top 2% will creep to the top 20%.
That is anyone making better than 50K.

[jstut]

I find it interesting that my wife can't get any significant assistance to go "back to school"
We are apparently making too much money, yet I'm not in a limo, top 2%, or taking the big vacations. We're getting by, don't get me wrong, but if I would divorce my wife, and put her in that "Single Parent-Head of Household" category, she would qualify. Seems the system is geared to the impoverished as it is. Afew threads up the point was made...you have to Want and WORK for wealth.
Some folks chase $, others chase happiness in a different way.

[imaeditedbysowulo]

I find it interesting that my wife can't get any significant assistance to go "back to school"
We are apparently making too much money, yet I'm not in a limo, top 2%, or taking the big vacations. We're getting by, don't get me wrong, but if I would divorce my wife, and put her in that "Single Parent-Head of Household" category, she would qualify. Seems the system is geared to the impoverished as it is. Afew threads up the point was made...you have to Want and WORK for wealth.
Some folks chase $, others chase happiness in a different way.


Lightning striketh inside my head...

How bout a tax break for married people where the amount of tax is lessened with each additional year you are married. How sweet would that be? Maybe once you are married for 50 years you pay no tax at all.

[Wayward Clam]

I think we did that a year or two back and the poor aren't any poorer than they were before the cuts, so I'd say it was a success. There's also a huge amount of people living in earned income type apartments where they pay something like 50 bucks a month for rent. We need to scale that stuff way back too, or put a limit on how long you can live in one of those places. Too much money is being wasted in this country.

You're a world class idiot.

I do volunteer work for a poverty advocacy group and a food bank, so you can take my words as biased if you need to, but take them as words that come from someone who actually knows the situation of the poor as well.

You have NO idea what you are talking about here. You have clearly never seen the poor up close and therefore have no idea what their lives are actually like.

[imaeditedbysowulo]

You're a world class idiot.

I do volunteer work for a poverty advocacy group and a food bank, so you can take my words as biased if you need to, but take them as words that come from someone who actually knows the situation of the poor as well.

You have NO idea what you are talking about here. You have clearly never seen the poor up close and therefore have no idea what their lives are actually like.

You are the idiot, but thanks for your observation. I live in the ghetto and have for the last 8 years. I've known countless people that get assistance. A few of them have really deserved it and used it in a beneficial way, the vast majority feel like it's owed to them.

I'm the only one on my block that pays full price for my housing and all my utilities.

I've never seen the poor up close, LMAO!

[Wayward Clam]

You are the idiot, but thanks for your observation. I live in the ghetto and have for the last 8 years. I've known countless people that get assistance. A few of them have really deserved it and used it in a beneficial way, the vast majority feel like it's owed to them.

I'm the only one on my block that pays full price for my housing and all my utilities.

I've never seen the poor up close, LMAO!

I guess the American poor are different than the poor in other countries. My mistake; I assumed they were the same all over the world.

[silencio]

You are the idiot, but thanks for your observation. I live in the ghetto and have for the last 8 years. I've known countless people that get assistance. A few of them have really deserved it and used it in a beneficial way, the vast majority feel like it's owed to them.

I'm the only one on my block that pays full price for my housing and all my utilities.

I've never seen the poor up close, LMAO!
I have to agree. Of the people that I knew when I lived in HUD housing there were less who really needed it and more who saw it as their way to get out of getting a job. The worst part of the deal though was that those people who were trying to work usually got screwed by the system. Benefits disappear when you meet a certain monetary threshold and many people wound up making less with a job. That's not much of an incentive to work or make something of yourself. It actually appeared to have been designed to keep people dependent. I think they've done some work on it in the last few years though.

[TechZ]

Tax Slab

Income > 10,000 Tax 20%
Income > 20,000 Tax 30%

Like that, the more you earn, the more you pay, of course in most Asian countries, the Tax Slab is reviewed, taking into account inflation and all and mostly the minimum limit for paying tax is raised and so poor ppl get spared from paying tax.

[paraflyer]

So, if I understand you all correctly, then I should quit my job to avoid paying any taxes, PLUS I get to go on welfare and get mandatory handouts from all those of you still working.

<sarcasm mode on> What a deal..... <sarcasm off>

BTW Clam, I feel honored! :thumbs:

[meatwad]

Tax Slab

Income > 10,000 Tax 20%
Income > 20,000 Tax 30%

Like that, the more you earn, the more you pay, of course in most Asian countries, the Tax Slab is reviewed, taking into account inflation and all and mostly the minimum limit for paying tax is raised and so poor ppl get spared from paying tax.

What's the incentive to make more money then? Why would I want to make a million dollars a year if I can only keep 20%? I'd be more than happy to have $200,000, but come on.

[imaeditedbysowulo]

I guess the American poor are different than the poor in other countries. My mistake; I assumed they were the same all over the world.


People are the same, doesn't matter where in the world it is and it doesn't matter whether they are rich or poor.

If you keep giving people fish are they ever going to learn how to fish themselves? No and why should they.

There's nothing wrong with helping people that need it, but if you need help for your entire life there's a serious problem. I would just like to see limits put on how much help is given out, and help should be removed if people accetping that help continue to procreate. If someone can't take care of their family yet they continue having more kids why in the F should I feel bad about not wanting to keep supporting that person?

Course I'm a world class idiot so what do I know? :bor:

[Major Kong]

People are the same, doesn't matter where in the world it is and it doesn't matter whether they are rich or poor.

If you keep giving people fish are they ever going to learn how to fish themselves? No and why should they.

There's nothing wrong with helping people that need it, but if you need help for your entire life there's a serious problem. I would just like to see limits put on how much help is given out, and help should be removed if people accetping that help continue to procreate. If someone can't take care of their family yet they continue having more kids why in the F should I feel bad about not wanting to keep supporting that person?

Course I'm a world class idiot so what do I know? :bor:
I want to echo what both imaeditiedbysowulo and silencio said with emphasis on the bolded part above. My folks own and operate a couple of grocery stores in the SW part of Virginia. I was in one of the stores back in 2000 when this young lady and young man walked in. The young lady was holding about a 1 year old boy and the young man was holding the hand of a 3 year old girl. The young lady was about 6 months preggers. My Dad introduced to me to the couple. The couple had gotten married while they were both Sophmores in HS, she had dropped out and he was finishing his GED. Neither one had ever worked and they were on State & Fed assistance. Yet they were driving a brand new Dodge 4X4 full sized King Cab pickup. They bought a couple of hundred $$$ worth of groceries and such. After they left I asked my Dad what is the story? Neither of them work, but they drive a new truck and they have a nice house that was supplied to them through a Fed Housing Program that they only pay $125 month for (not an apartment to rent, but a house that they bought with the help of this housing program). My Dad just chuckled and said it was the way of several of the younger folks in the area. The couple gets all the WICS and other assistance they need. It comes to ~$1100 per child a month total. Right now that works out to $26,400 a year which puts them over the average meduim income for the area! The 3rd child, on a sliding scale now, will provide them with an extra ~$975 per month resulting in $11,600 a year to put their total to $38,100 a year. Now remember this isn't all cash this includes insurance, FS, housing assistance, etc. Actually the cash portion of this is about $700 per child. http://forums.windrivers.com/images/smilies/eek3.gif With the addition of the 3rd child that will work out to $2,100 a month. Now the kicker and swear this is true...my Dad then told that this couple has already got it figured out that they will have their 4th child within a year of this next baby to give them more income (about $2,800 a month) which should suit them just fine. If they need to have another child at sometime (say they need a new car) they will. I was actually 100% stunned. After talking to my nephew though (who is now 20 and unmarried - I don't know what's wrong with the youngin'http://forums.windrivers.com/images/smilies/wink.gif) he tells me he knows of 3 other couples from his HS graduating class (out of class of 35 kids = 17%) that are doing the samething. All I got to say is DAYUM!!!http://forums.windrivers.com/images/smilies/sad2.gif

[Wayward Clam]

Conceded:

1. These people exist.

2. Systems need to be reformed.

Not conceded (yet):

What percentage of people getting help are abusers of the system and what percentage actually need help.

[TechZ]

What's the incentive to make more money then? Why would I want to make a million dollars a year if I can only keep 20%? I'd be more than happy to have $200,000, but come on.
You dont keep 20%(theyre not real figures btw) you pay 20%
e.g.:

Income US$10,000 Tax 10% = Disposable Income US$9000

Income US$50,000 Tax 20% = Disposable Income US$40,000

So u still make a lot of money.

[meatwad]

You dont keep 20%(theyre not real figures btw) you pay 20%
e.g.:

Income US$10,000 Tax 10% = Disposable Income US$9000

Income US$50,000 Tax 20% = Disposable Income US$40,000

So u still make a lot of money.

That's what's confusing me. You keep changing what numbers go with what income. What I want to know is how far it goes. On the scale you were showing, I assumed that a person making 1mil would have to pay 70-80% taxes.

[TechZ]

It doesnt go as bad as that, the tax rate goes up as you earn more but its a tax slab (bracket) so at the highest level i think one would pay about 50%, each country is different, and when youre rich things like donations and charity helps to reduce the amount of tax you pay.

[imaeditedbysowulo]

Conceded:

1. These people exist.

2. Systems need to be reformed.

Not conceded (yet):

What percentage of people getting help are abusers of the system and what percentage actually need help.


I would be willing to bet that a pretty good percentage of people that actually need that help do not qualify for it, and that in order to qualify you have to either be a deadbeat or be down on your luck for a really really long time.

I went thru a year and a half where I couldn't find a decent paying job in my field. I worked a menial job instead just to make ends meet as best I could. It was a cold winter and my gas bills were 220-320 dollars per month. The job I was working worked out to about 17K per year. My winter gas bills alone were close to 2000 for only six months. Throw in everything else that is required to survive and you're looking at someone in dire need of help.

The amount of assistance I qualified for was ZERO. Everything I applied for was based on my last full year's tax returns income level which put me over the limit.

The following year I qualified for the programs but by that time I was working again and making a pretty good salary. I didn't apply for the assistance again because I didn't feel it was fair to take money I didn't need anymore. Maybe I should have since I'm still paying off credit card bills that I had to run up, but it didn't seem right to me.

[Wayward Clam]

Also conceded: I shouldn't have called you a world class idiot. My apologies.

[meatwad]

I'd like to hear from the Brits on the tax issue. Didn't you used to have a tax bracket that had like a 95% income tax?

[inferno_gn]

Hi there,

Makes me wonder why all the rich do with that kind of money? Sure, they got everything, but come on. Too much is just too much.

If all the rich spend their money on something good, then this world would be a far better place.

Do you really need like 5 sport cars? A 50 rooms huge house for one single person? Why do you need all that golf space? Why eating all those fancy restaurants? All that fashion (and some of then are really ugly) clothes? Geez...

Ju Leon...

[Major Kong]

Hi there,

Makes me wonder why all the rich do with that kind of money? Sure, they got everything, but come on. Too much is just too much.

If all the rich spend their money on something good, then this world would be a far better place.

Do you really need like 5 sport cars? A 50 rooms huge house for one single person? Why do you need all that golf space? Why eating all those fancy restaurants? All that fashion (and some of then are really ugly) clothes? Geez...

Ju Leon...

OK just let me say this to get it off my chest...DUH!!!

That feels better. Ummm Ju Leon when a rich person does buy 5 cars, eat at fancy eateries, buys fancy clothes and purchases a big house where do you rekkin' that money they spent goes??? Now think about it real hard I know you can. Come on now you can do it. Oh OK I'll tell ya it goes into the auto salesmans hand, the auto dealership, the eatery, the waitress, the cook, the busboy, the real estate agent, the Home Depot Clerk, the clothing store owner, the salesperson and the stockperson. All of that worthless spending helping to pay those worthless wages. Tisk, tisk, tisk it's a crime I tell ya! :butt:

[TechZ]

Major's right, what a rich person does with their money is their right, maybe having 5 cars seems too much to us, but to the really poor, even having A car is too much. Its all relative.ITs better when rich people spend all their money, because it gets into the economy again and well its a cycle.

[techs]

OK just let me say this to get it off my chest...DUH!!!

That feels better. Ummm Ju Leon when a rich person does buy 5 cars, eat at fancy eateries, buys fancy clothes and purchases a big house where do you rekkin' that money they spent goes??? Now think about it real hard I know you can. Come on now you can do it. Oh OK I'll tell ya it goes into the auto salesmans hand, the auto dealership, the eatery, the waitress, the cook, the busboy, the real estate agent, the Home Depot Clerk, the clothing store owner, the salesperson and the stockperson. All of that worthless spending helping to pay those worthless wages. Tisk, tisk, tisk it's a crime I tell ya! :butt:

I don't begrudge anyone eating out at a fancy restaurant or buying 5 cars . If you want to help the economy giving the rich a tax cut is not worth it. First off most of the rich in the top two percent didn't use the money to buy 5 cars. They had the money for that in the first place. As to eating at fancy restaurant they could also do that before the tax cuts. While I am sure some people did buy more cars and eat out more often a huge amount of that money was invested. A lot of it went into government securities. In other words the government borrowed money to give to rich people. Then they took that money and loaned it to the government. Which in turn is giving it back to rich who will buy more government securities.
Looking at the issues of eating out and buying clothes I ask how only two percent of the people can effectively stimulate demand. Who would by more clothes with a tax break. 5,000 middle class families who otherwise couldn't afford more clothes or 100 rich people? And the two percent would have to eat out 300 times a day each to equal what 5,000 middle class people would eat.
Plus the money for the middle class would go to buy things they need like health insurance, college tuitions, etc that not only benefit the economy and themselves but America as a whole. Healthier people, better educated people will eventually be more productive.
So by rolling back the tax cuts for the rich and therefore lowering interest on the debt more money is available for a larger tax cut for the middle class. Which I have shown would be a real stimulus to the economy and better for America in the long run.

Rich person on hearing he got the tax cut:
"I'm going to invest it"
Middle class person on hearing he got the tax cut:
I'm going to buy some clothes, get that mole checked out, send may daughter to college"

[Wayward Clam]

I have to admit this is another thing that weighs on my mind.

Let's look at Bill Gates' $60 000 000 mansion.

Does he really NEED a house that expensive?

Sure it's his money, but do you know how many poor people $60 000 000 could send to school? How long my parents' food bank could afford to operate on such a fund? How many more cops it could put on the street to fight crime? How much research it could buy to cure cancer?

Again, it IS his money and he (theoretically) earned every penny of it... so he has the right to spend it all on left-handed trout gutters if he wants to... but is that a more important right than the right of the homeless to have supper every night?

[NooNoo]

I'd like to hear from the Brits on the tax issue. Didn't you used to have a tax bracket that had like a 95% income tax?


That was a very very long time ago under a labour government.


Current taxes work like this

You get the first
£4745 untaxed.... so you remove this figure from what your gross salary is for the year. (this figure is for a standard - there are other breaks for agegroups or other circumstances)

The next £2020 you earn is taxed at 10% for the year - £202
Between £2020 and £31200 you pay 22% tax for the year £6819.56

If you earn £4745 your tax bill is nil
If you earn £6765 your tax bill is £202 a year
If you earn £39,945 your tax bil is £7021.56 a year - works out to about 17.5% over the entire salary.

For every £1 you earn over £39,945 you pay 40 pence in tax - a flat 40% rate.

Other taxes VAT - sales tax to you - 17.5%. Some things are exempt such as childrens clothes and basic food stuffs. Some attract a lower rate of VAT such as electricity.

Then there is national insurance - effectively state pension pot, but it is used for all sorts of things. It's a tad complex - The first £79 a week is tax free, then its 11% of anything you earn up to £610 a week - over £610 you pay 1% of any earnings over that.

[techs]

That was a very very long time ago under a labour government.


Current taxes work like this

You get the first
£4745 untaxed.... so you remove this figure from what your gross salary is for the year. (this figure is for a standard - there are other breaks for agegroups or other circumstances)

The next £2020 you earn is taxed at 10% for the year - £202
Between £2020 and £31200 you pay 22% tax for the year £6819.56

If you earn £4745 your tax bill is nil
If you earn £6765 your tax bill is £202 a year
If you earn £39,945 your tax bil is £7021.56 a year - works out to about 17.5% over the entire salary.

For every £1 you earn over £39,945 you pay 40 pence in tax - a flat 40% rate.

Other taxes VAT - sales tax to you - 17.5%. Some things are exempt such as childrens clothes and basic food stuffs. Some attract a lower rate of VAT such as electricity.

Then there is national insurance - effectively state pension pot, but it is used for all sorts of things. It's a tad complex - The first £79 a week is tax free, then its 11% of anything you earn up to £610 a week - over £610 you pay 1% of any earnings over that.

In the US we reach the top braket at about the same time. Then its 31 percent. It was 38 percent before Bush.
Your vat tax is way higher than ours. We don't add tax until a product is sold to a consumer. Then it varies by state. Vermont is 6 perent, New Hampshire has no sales tax.

Do you have a budget deficit in Britain?

[NooNoo]

yes (http://en.ce.cn/World/Europe/t20040423_726920.shtml)

[Major Kong]

Don't forget State Income taxes! In Arizona it was 28% of Federal. In Virginia, when I was there, it was 33% of Federal. Most Virginia counties also had personal property taxes. Arizona didn't have PPT per se, nor does Alaska. Alaska does not have an income tax (yet) nor a State sales tax though some localities do have a 2% sales tax that is usually capped over a certain amount. Of course what Virginia, Arizona and Alaska have in common (pretty much with everyone else) is property taxes and various user fees and taxes (gasoline, telephone, etc.). Chip in SS, Medicare and Health Insurance (not gov't related) a goodly chunk comes out.
Up here where I work we have it better than our Canadian counterparts (about 30% of the workforce). Oy the paperwork they have to do for the IRS and Canadian IRS (I can't remember what it's called) is frightening. Just about everyone of our Canadian work force has now relocated to the Anchorage/Mat-Su area (2 moved to Fairbanks). I can count on both hands now (12 fingers http://forums.windrivers.com/images/smilies/wink.gif) the amount of folks who still rotate out to Canada (most are from Vancouver, 1 from Kimberly and 1 from Calgary).

[meatwad]

New Hampshire rocks. No sales tax, no income tax. They make up for it in Property Taxes and Luxury Taxes such as snack taxes and meals taxes. I think it's like an 8% tax on ice cream or something.

[meatwad]

I have to admit this is another thing that weighs on my mind.

Let's look at Bill Gates' $60 000 000 mansion.

Does he really NEED a house that expensive?

Sure it's his money, but do you know how many poor people $60 000 000 could send to school? How long my parents' food bank could afford to operate on such a fund? How many more cops it could put on the street to fight crime? How much research it could buy to cure cancer?

Again, it IS his money and he (theoretically) earned every penny of it... so he has the right to spend it all on left-handed trout gutters if he wants to... but is that a more important right than the right of the homeless to have supper every night?

Bill Gates gives more money than you'll ever see to worthy causes and employs a ridiculous number of people. I have ZERO problem with how much money he has.

[TechZ]

The Billions he pours into charities all over the world, is more than most countries want to give. If all rich people gave in the same ratio as he did, the world would definately be a better place.

[techs]

I have to admit this is another thing that weighs on my mind.

Let's look at Bill Gates' $60 000 000 mansion.

Does he really NEED a house that expensive?

Sure it's his money, but do you know how many poor people $60 000 000 could send to school? How long my parents' food bank could afford to operate on such a fund? How many more cops it could put on the street to fight crime? How much research it could buy to cure cancer?

Again, it IS his money and he (theoretically) earned every penny of it... so he has the right to spend it all on left-handed trout gutters if he wants to... but is that a more important right than the right of the homeless to have supper every night?

Gates might have more money but Paul Allen has more toys:

http://powerandmotoryacht.zeroforum.com/zerofile/84/Octopus3.jpg

Paul Allens yacht Octopus. Cost: 200 million dollars. It's 413 feet long. Has a basketball court, 2 helicopters, movie theater, recording studio and numerous other boats on board.
Cost to fill it with gas? 300,000 dollars.
Did I mention that it also has it's own submarine?

[Wayward Clam]

Gates does not give because he wants the world to be a better place. Everything that man does is involved in making money. He gives because he gets tax breaks, good public image, and to try to get the DOJ off his back.

He also "gives" a great deal in the style of computers for schools... this isn't a gift, it's a long term investment. A brilliant one, I might add. He gets tax breaks today for a customer base custom designed to want his products in the future... and gets to look good to everybody involved on top of it!

And the money he gives to charity is a tiny drop in the bucket of all the money he makes.

[Jediab]

All of this talk of "Do they really need?" Do we really need to eat that apple pie? (hmmm pie...) Do we really need to drink that cola? Do we need to buy comic books or novels? Do we really need to go swimming at the local pool? Do we really need to go hunting for legal game?

We choose to eat that apple pie with the can of cola while reading our comic books or the latest Tom Clancey writings. We decide to go swimming at the local pool after we shoot, gut, and clean the goose.

None of these things are needed to survive (except for maybe hunting depending on where ya live). But we choose to do these things that fall into our budget to bring pleasure and joy into our lives. If they are able to afford it, who are we to judge?

[techs]

Oops. I goofed. I forgot about State income taxes. Which I am guessing they don't have in Britain?

[NooNoo]

We have no state taxes as such. We do have council tax which is a tax based on how much your house was worth in 1991- this pays for local education, police, roads etc. It does not collect all that is needed to run the local area. Government then add more to their pot - and each year there is several column inches about how the Government are so unfair by the local councils and just as many from the Government about how the local councils must learn to live within their means.

[meatwad]

Gates does not give because he wants the world to be a better place. Everything that man does is involved in making money. He gives because he gets tax breaks, good public image, and to try to get the DOJ off his back.

He also "gives" a great deal in the style of computers for schools... this isn't a gift, it's a long term investment. A brilliant one, I might add. He gets tax breaks today for a customer base custom designed to want his products in the future... and gets to look good to everybody involved on top of it!

And the money he gives to charity is a tiny drop in the bucket of all the money he makes.

:rolleyes:

I'm glad you know exactly what Gates is thinking. Of course he's going to do things that make or save him money. Regardless of anything else, he's an excellent businessman. But to say that he doesn't want to help people is a pretty assinine assumption on your part.

[jitBob]

Gates does not give because he wants the world to be a better place. Everything that man does is involved in making money. He gives because he gets tax breaks, good public image, and to try to get the DOJ off his back.

He also "gives" a great deal in the style of computers for schools... this isn't a gift, it's a long term investment. A brilliant one, I might add. He gets tax breaks today for a customer base custom designed to want his products in the future... and gets to look good to everybody involved on top of it!

And the money he gives to charity is a tiny drop in the bucket of all the money he makes.

No one gives away $27 BILLION do (http://www.gatesfoundation.org/AboutUs/RelatedInfo/QuickFacts.htm)llars for a tax break. Bill Gates has stated that he wants to give away the vast majority of his money to charities and has been showing th proof of that in his foundation.

[techs]

No one gives away $27 BILLION do (http://www.gatesfoundation.org/AboutUs/RelatedInfo/QuickFacts.htm)llars for a tax break. Bill Gates has stated that he wants to give away the vast majority of his money to charities and has been showing th proof of that in his foundation.

I'm not impressed. When you have the money he does 27 billion is like most of us donating 100.00. It has no affect on his lifestyle, his childrens or his childrens children. It IS a good thing that he is giving it away. But he is still a greedy a*s who earned a lot of it with very underhanded tactics.
I have more respect for the person struggling to make ends meet who gives 10 dollars to charity.

[jitBob]

I'm not impressed. When you have the money he does 27 billion is like most of us donating 100.00. It has no affect on his lifestyle, his childrens or his childrens children. It IS a good thing that he is giving it away. But he is still a greedy a*s who earned a lot of it with very underhanded tactics.
I have more respect for the person struggling to make ends meet who gives 10 dollars to charity.
Hmmm...Aren't you the one who claims to be smart in another thread? $27 billion is about half of his current wealth, have you donated half of your income to charity?

[paraflyer]

Naah, techs just makes $200 per week.... :p

[techs]

Hmmm...Aren't you the one who claims to be smart in another thread? $27 billion is about half of his current wealth, have you donated half of your income to charity?

You proceed from the false assumption that half of your net worth is the same for a middle class person than for the richest person in the world. Didn't you read what I posted?

[meatwad]

You proceed from the false assumption that half of your net worth is the same for a middle class person than for the richest person in the world. Didn't you read what I posted?

Jesus man, he's given away 27 BILLION DOLLARS! Cut him some slack.

[techs]

Jesus man, he's given away 27 BILLION DOLLARS! Cut him some slack.

I actually created sympathy for Bill Gates? I guess I should tone it down. :devil:

[meatwad]

I actually created sympathy for Bill Gates? I guess I should tone it down. :devil:

Well it seems like with all of the Corporation bashing, somebody does something good, but he gets bashed for it anyway because it's a Corporation.

[jitBob]

You proceed from the false assumption that half of your net worth is the same for a middle class person than for the richest person in the world. Didn't you read what I posted?
Any way you cut it, half your net worth is half your net worth. Half of Mr Gates net worth can do a h3ll of a lot more good than half of yours or mine.

Yes, I did read your post.

[jitBob]

When I think about it, I actually like that some of the money that I have to spend on his software actually does some good in this world.

[Wayward Clam]

All of this talk of "Do they really need?" Do we really need to eat that apple pie? (hmmm pie...) Do we really need to drink that cola? Do we need to buy comic books or novels? Do we really need to go swimming at the local pool? Do we really need to go hunting for legal game?

We choose to eat that apple pie with the can of cola while reading our comic books or the latest Tom Clancey writings. We decide to go swimming at the local pool after we shoot, gut, and clean the goose.

None of these things are needed to survive (except for maybe hunting depending on where ya live). But we choose to do these things that fall into our budget to bring pleasure and joy into our lives. If they are able to afford it, who are we to judge?

I was merely questioning the SCALE of the purchase. Look at jewelry for example. Buying a comic book for $5 as a luxury will give you some pleasure... will buying a rare diamond for $5 million give you a million times as much pleasure? I don't think so, or diamond salespeople would be in a constant state of orgasm.

On the other hand, buying a box of cereal for someone poor will fill their stomach for a day. Buying a million boxes of cereal for the poor WILL accomplish a million times as much good.


No one gives away $27 BILLION do (http://www.gatesfoundation.org/AboutUs/RelatedInfo/QuickFacts.htm)llars for a tax break. Bill Gates has stated that he wants to give away the vast majority of his money to charities and has been showing th proof of that in his foundation.

I hadn't seen this information before and actually I AM very impressed with it, even if it does come from a Gates source. Thank you for the clarification.

[jitBob]

...I hadn't seen this information before and actually I AM very impressed with it, even if it does come from a Gates source. Thank you for the clarification.
You are very welcome.

[Jediab]

I was merely questioning the SCALE of the purchase. Look at jewelry for example. Buying a comic book for $5 as a luxury will give you some pleasure... will buying a rare diamond for $5 million give you a million times as much pleasure? I don't think so, or diamond salespeople would be in a constant state of orgasm

So you are saying that how you see things in terms of SCALE is the only way it is? That is your perception of reality. Not the reality for others. What if that comic book was not just a 2.50 cent Spider-Man, but Amazing Fantasy #15 in mint condition (webby will know what I mean)? If it falls into your budget, who are you and who am I to nag about what is done with the money? Nobody has what right to tell people how to spend their money based on how THEY think it should be spent.

[paraflyer]

On the other hand, buying a box of cereal for someone poor will fill their stomach for a day. Buying a million boxes of cereal for the poor WILL accomplish a million times as much good.

Yeah, like promote the idea of handouts.....

Followed soon after by cries of "we have a RIGHT to that free box of cereal."

[Wayward Clam]

Yeah, like promote the idea of handouts.....

Followed soon after by cries of "we have a RIGHT to that free box of cereal."

Handouts prevent people from starving to death.

You can't eat school books.

But if you prefer, then read the above as saying "instead spend the millions on education and job creation programs instead of jewelry."

Okay? Are we done here now? :thumbs:

[paraflyer]

Handouts prevent people from starving to death.

You can't eat school books.

But if you prefer, then read the above as saying "instead spend the millions on education and job creation programs instead of jewelry."

Okay? Are we done here now? :thumbs:

Nahhh...this is fun! :p

Now when you say "job creation programs", what kind of jobs do you want? Obviously nobody wants to add to the plethora of McDonald's, yet there's so many roadblocks to building new factories.

There's millions WASTED on the current education scheme, why would I want to throw more money at it?

[Wayward Clam]

Nahhh...this is fun! :p

Now when you say "job creation programs", what kind of jobs do you want? Obviously nobody wants to add to the plethora of McDonald's, yet there's so many roadblocks to building new factories.

There's millions WASTED on the current education scheme, why would I want to throw more money at it?

How about throwing it at programs that show documented results?

There are a LOT of different job creation and education experiments going on in both of our countries. I know they aren't ALL failures because I keep seeing sappy-happy stories in the media about how they work sometimes.

[jitBob]

Nahhh...this is fun! :p

Now when you say "job creation programs", what kind of jobs do you want? Obviously nobody wants to add to the plethora of McDonald's, yet there's so many roadblocks to building new factories.

There's millions WASTED on the current education scheme, why would I want to throw more money at it?
How about jobs in road work, forestry, education, police, or firemen? Jobs that actually do some good, pay decently and help everyone?

[paraflyer]

How about jobs in road work, forestry, education, police, or firemen? Jobs that actually do some good, pay decently and help everyone?

Ok, all but forestry....

Put the Greenies/Earth Firsters out there instead, get them out of their offices...