More amazing concidences in the war on terrorism.

[techs]

Feds arrest 2 in Albany Missile Scheme
http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/nation/ny-stmosque0805,0,3909537.story?coll=ny-nationalnews-headlines
Man arrested in plot to blow up Dirksen building
http://www.suntimes.com/output/news/nettles05.html

Things in common:
Both were Federal "sting" operations.
Both were announced on the same day.
Both had been ongoing (missile sting over a year, length of time not specified for bomb)
Both occured just days after Ridge was criticized for warning of an attack based on old evidence.

In the missile case:
The arrest of the two Muslim leaders did not unravel any terrorist plots and Deputy Attorney General James Comey, in announcing the arrests, admitted, "This is not the case of the century."
In the Chicago case:
A convicted counterfeiter with an apparent grudge against the courts was arrested Thursday on charges of plotting to blow up a federal courthouse, but he never actually had materials to make a truck bomb, authorities said

So now we have had Tom Ridge make an announcement for no apparent reason 2 days after Kerry picks Edwards. Then he announced a plot based on old info 2 days after the Democratic convention.
Then when Ridge is roundly criticized for this a few days later the Feds decide to move on two ongoing stings. In Albany there was not a piece of missile in sight. In Chicago the guy tried to sell 1500 pounds of fertilizer but nothing else to make a bomb with and apparently did not have the know how to make a bomb.

It just looks more and more like the Bushes are using terorism to scare us.

[Steve]

Feds arrest 2 in Albany Missile Schemehttp://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/nation/ny-stmosque0805,0,3909537.story?coll=ny-nationalnews-headlines

Man arrested in plot to blow up Dirksen building
http://www.suntimes.com/output/news/nettles05.html

Things in common:
Both were Federal "sting" operations.
Both were announced on the same day.
Both had been ongoing (missile sting over a year, length of time not specified for bomb)
Both occured just days after Ridge was criticized for warning of an attack based on old evidence.

In the missile case:
The arrest of the two Muslim leaders did not unravel any terrorist plots and Deputy Attorney General James Comey, in announcing the arrests, admitted, "This is not the case of the century."
In the Chicago case:



A convicted counterfeiter with an apparent grudge against the courts was arrested Thursday on charges of plotting to blow up a federal courthouse, but he never actually had materials to make a truck bomb, authorities said

So now we have had Tom Ridge make an announcement for no apparent reason 2 days after Kerry picks Edwards. Then he announced a plot based on old info 2 days after the Democratic convention.
Then when Ridge is roundly criticized for this a few days later the Feds decide to move on two ongoing stings. In Albany there was not a piece of missile in sight. In Chicago the guy tried to sell 1500 pounds of fertilizer but nothing else to make a bomb with and apparently did not have the know how to make a bomb.

It just looks more and more like the Bushes are using terorism to scare us.

His own inside people admit that Bush did not want information before the 9-11 attacks. He carefully crafted what information he wanted by continually asking
for a reason to be in Iraq. That was his priority before 9-11. Now after 9-11 Bush is telling us what we think we should know. Therefore we have the obvious post democratic convention propaganda. This guy is a machiavellian with a k-mart mentality. As an American I hope the rest of the world doesn't lose faith in us.

[techs]

Posted by Steve
This guy is a machiavellian with a k-mart mentality.

I like that. Did you make it up?

I heard this on tv this morning. A terrorist expert was saying that instead of having colors for the terrorism levels we should have:

Be afraid.
Be very afraid.
Be most afraid.

[Ya_know]

It just occurred to me, you both are delusional...that explains all of the propaganda!

[paraflyer]

His own inside people admit that Bush did not want information before the 9-11 attacks. He carefully crafted what information he wanted by continually asking
for a reason to be in Iraq. That was his priority before 9-11. Now after 9-11 Bush is telling us what we think we should know. Therefore we have the obvious post democratic convention propaganda. This guy is a machiavellian with a k-mart mentality. As an American I hope the rest of the world doesn't lose faith in us.

So, on the other side of the coin, why did Clinton ignore the problem with terrorists during his two terms? Blowing up American embassies, nope, that's not probable cause....bombing the USS Cole, nope, that's not probable cause....first WTC bombing, nope, no probable cause.....

Bush may have tailored the info, but by appearances Clinton would have rather ignored it all in favor of appeasement.

Doesn't matter how much you avoid the bee's nest, they can still sting you.

[techs]

So, on the other side of the coin, why did Clinton ignore the problem with terrorists during his two terms? Blowing up American embassies, nope, that's not probable cause....bombing the USS Cole, nope, that's not probable cause....first WTC bombing, nope, no probable cause.....

Bush may have tailored the info, but by appearances Clinton would have rather ignored it all in favor of appeasement.

Doesn't matter how much you avoid the bee's nest, they can still sting you.

Probable cause? For what, invading Iraq? One thing had nothing to do with the other. Bush came into office with no realization of the terrorist problem. Despite all the evidence he did nothing for 9 months. In fact he insisted long range missile development was our greatest threat.
No one knows what Clinton or Gore would have done after 9-11 but we know Bush used it as an excuse to carry out his desire to invade Iraq.

[Ya_know]

I thought it was the right thing to do...it's a rare thing for me to do it, but I would definitely commend Clinton for taking this action...was it right???

U.S. Strikes Iraq for Plot to Kill Bush (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/inatl/longterm/iraq/timeline/062793.htm)

[Ya_know]

So let me ask this...

If it was OK for Clinton to bomb the sh!t out of Iraqi intelligence headquarters from a ship for attempting to kill a former president, why was it so frowned upon if Bush junior had this as one of many motive for invading Iraq? Although it was never stated as a direct reason, everyone here in the liberal camp was pointing fingers, and making accusations…

[Cleetus]

Clinton only asked for the assassination of Osama, who is not a political leader, therefor bypassing that stupid no kill political dude thing(I think it was an executive order, but can't remember which president it was under). Then also, clinton went at strategic military sites only with Iraq. Now Bush II on the otherhand went for a complete government overthrow while doing his damnedest to kill Hussein.


Or something like that

[Ya_know]

Clinton only asked for the assassination of Osama, who is not a political leader, therefor bypassing that stupid no kill political dude thing(I think it was an executive order, but can't remember which president it was under). Then also, clinton went at strategic military sites only with Iraq. Now Bush II on the otherhand went for a complete government overthrow while doing his damnedest to kill Hussein.


Or something like that

But surgical strikes killed civilians too.

That wasn't the last time Clinton Bombed Iraq...there was another again in 96, there was even a massive deployment at that time too...I remember it all too well, because we were preparing to hit Iraq for real and with ground forces, but Saddam backed down and so did we.

Then again in 98...that all happened around the impeachment thingie...seems to me that we've been stirring the hornets nest for a long while before GW Bush even set eyes on the office...what makes you think that Saddam wasn't planning something, or waiting for the moment to do it...if I was him I too would hate America...Bush did the right thing getting him out of power!

[Cleetus]

I remember biuld ups on the planes over there but not the ground troops, but then again, I was in college at the time drinking beer and chasing anything with breasts and a heart beat.

[paraflyer]

Probable cause? For what, invading Iraq? One thing had nothing to do with the other. Bush came into office with no realization of the terrorist problem. Despite all the evidence he did nothing for 9 months. In fact he insisted long range missile development was our greatest threat.
No one knows what Clinton or Gore would have done after 9-11 but we know Bush used it as an excuse to carry out his desire to invade Iraq.

Interesting.

YOU mentioned Iraq...I didn't.

I didn't refute that Bush may have tailored the info for his cause.

Clinton STILL did nothing of any merit regarding terrorism.

I was not talking of what Clinton "would have done" after 9-11, but WHAT HE DID DURING HIS OWN TWO TERMS IN OFFICE.

[Cleetus]

Interesting.

YOU mentioned Iraq...I didn't.

I didn't refute that Bush may have tailored the info for his cause.

Clinton STILL did nothing of any merit regarding terrorism.

I was not talking of what Clinton "would have done" after 9-11, but WHAT HE DID DURING HIS OWN TWO TERMS IN OFFICE.
Um, well it was the intelligence community of Clintons that knew within a short time exactly who did it. It was the lack of support to get the Counterterrorism overseer, which Bush just got, from the Republicans that could have prevented it by having people talking to eachother and sharing the information that the Clinton intelligence community found. It was the Clinton military that did in a short time what no other modern army has ever done(take over Afghanistan). It was Clinton's military that sliced right through Iraq.

He also still has the first WTC bombers in jail. And he did try to kill Osama after the embassy bombings. He recognized the threats in Afghanistan and Al Quaeda and started the mechanics that led us to victory there, too bad though that we pulled out too many forces too soon to capture all the bad guys and that Pakistan is actually rather quiet these days(can you say, OOOOOPS)

[Ya_know]

I remember biuld ups on the planes over there but not the ground troops, but then again, I was in college at the time drinking beer and chasing anything with breasts and a heart beat.

That's all that you have to say no response to the fact that we've been after this guy since long before Bush jr? Look, I know you are aware of these facts, and that reminding you isn't necessary, so please make some sense of your arguments here.

In retort to what you just said, I assure you we had units on standby all over the country, and around the world. Routine deployments were rerouted to the region, and several new forces were packed and ready to go with less than a months notice, some actually made it to the ships before being sent back to the bases. It never got so far as troops on the ground in neighboring countries that I am aware of, but I assure you this, before it fizzled out we were all preparing to go to war, I remember laughing off the need to write a will, all the while my insides were churning.

[Ya_know]

It was the Clinton military that did in a short time what no other modern army has ever done(take over Afghanistan). It was Clinton's military that sliced right through Iraq.



Clinton didn't have anything to do with it other than approving funding requests from the top Brass from all of the branches to make our military what it is today. It was the kick a$$ generals, the hardcore commanders, the hearts of many fine young enlisted men and women, including the driving motivational force provided by Bush that did all that you expressed. I guarantee when it all started 90% of the troops were glad to go, willing to fight, and loved president Bush. The other 10% is always there, they are known as the derelicts that shouldn't have made it past the screening, but always do. Since this all started things have changed, the fighting is over, and the fog of war is setting in, so that 90% is dwindling due to fatigue. But people that bash the war, protest it’s necessity, and bash Bush unjustifiably have caused that number to come down a bit more still, but that’s not changing the strength of that force.

Face it, The military is no more Bushs then it is Clintons. I will tell you this, while I was in during the entire Clinton administration, 90% of the troops didn’t like Clinton. He sealed his fate with the gays in the military push that never succeeded, and never would.

[Cleetus]

I can't find it now, but have the quote at home from Dick Cheney after the first Gulf War. Paraphrased he said that every armies readiness and ability is directly linked to the previous president and that following the first Gulf War he immidiatly called Reagan to thank him.

Odd how people will not attribute that to Clinton though....Yes we do have less bases but the ability to strike with smarter weapons and fewer people is at a phase unthought of during the first Gulf War.

[paraflyer]

It was the Clinton military that did in a short time what no other modern army has ever done(take over Afghanistan). It was Clinton's military that sliced right through Iraq.

WTF? You're saying he had a big military buildup, and decided not to use it? It's also Clinton's military that had the wonderful (note the sarcasm) reduction-in-forces act. The hardware's useless if there's no one to run it.

And he did try to kill Osama after the embassy bombings.

And repeatedly missed the target; not much mention of that, is there? But when Bush deployed military into Afghanistan, and couldn't keep up with Osama's moves, wow, what a disaster....

[Cleetus]

WTF? You're saying he had a big military buildup, and decided not to use it? It's also Clinton's military that had the wonderful (note the sarcasm) reduction-in-forces act. The hardware's useless if there's no one to run it.



And repeatedly missed the target; not much mention of that, is there? But when Bush deployed military into Afghanistan, and couldn't keep up with Osama's moves, wow, what a disaster....
So then everything Bush has done militarily has been failures? Or are you just reaching for anything you can to discredit Clinton?

[paraflyer]

So then everything Bush has done militarily has been failures? Or are you just reaching for anything you can to discredit Clinton?

No, not everything is a failure; but you can't continuously credit Clinton for all the successes, either.

[Cleetus]

No, not everything is a failure; but you can't continuously credit Clinton for all the successes, either.
Obviously no you cannot, but also on the flip you can't really claim he did absolutly nothing either.

[Ya_know]

Odd how people will not attribute that to Clinton though....Yes we do have less bases but the ability to strike with smarter weapons and fewer people is at a phase unthought of during the first Gulf War.

Where in what I said did you think I was quoting Dick Chenney??? Dude, comment on my quote if you are going to rebut anything that I say...not what Dick said.

What I said was that this military is neither of the two Bushs or Clinton's, it is the countless men and women that make it what it is...if it kicks a$$ or falls apart, it's the men in uniform that deserve the credit. Period.

[Cleetus]

But I don't care about what you think, I have my own agenda.

[Ya_know]

But I don't care about what you think, I have my own agenda.

Let me guess, the operations are almost complete...you will soon be all man. :p

[Cleetus]

Let me guess, the operations are almost complete...you will soon be all man. :p
It's always back to the gay thing with you isn't it

[Ya_know]

It's always back to the gay thing with you isn't it

You're the one that's blowing off a perfectly good argument because you "have your own agenda". I think you really don't want to go head to head because I am kicking your a$$. The whole "My own agenda" thing is what's gay around here...

[Cleetus]

Ok fine then, the men and women of the armed services are only as good as they are funded and equipped in today's modern military where fewer people can do more then ever, more precisely. To say that the president has no influence is blind loyality to what you were, but no necessarily completely how things really are.

I had already said that I was not up to troop deployments at the time, so instead was using actual(paraphrased) quotes from one that was in charge of making sure that everything worked the way it should, and would know a whole hell of a lot more of the big picture militarily then any of us here.

I was trying to have some respect cause last several times I have blasted off on those who have served I have pissed some people off, and remember one that hasn't come back since.

[Ya_know]

I was trying to have some respect cause last several times I have blasted off on those who have served I have pissed some people off, and remember one that hasn't come back since.

Who, confus-ed? I think he's taking a break from all of us... :thumbs:

[Cleetus]

Who, confus-ed? I think he's taking a break from all of us... :thumbs:
Nah, it was over a year ago, there was a young marine stationed in California if I remember correctly that suddenly stopped posting after I went off on a rant about the attitudes of military people vs civilians and how they often think they are better and entitled to more freedom.

[Wayward Clam]

Wow, Cleetus beat off a Marine! :eek2:

[Ya_know]

Nah, it was over a year ago, there was a young marine stationed in California if I remember correctly that suddenly stopped posting after I went off on a rant about the attitudes of military people vs civilians and how they often think they are better and entitled to more freedom.

You're talking about Archangel42069 (http://forums.windrivers.com/member.php?u=32010) ? I think he just got bored with the place like everybody else that has left. Why don't you pm him, tell him you're sorry for being a punk... :thumbs:

[Cleetus]

You're talking about Archangel42069 (http://forums.windrivers.com/member.php?u=32010) ? I think he just got bored with the place like everybody else that has left. Why don't you pm him, tell him you're sorry for being a punk... :thumbs:
Why should I apologize, he was the one thinking he was better and should be treated better and be given more freedoms....

[Ya_know]

Why should I apologize, he was the one thinking he was better and should be treated better and be given more freedoms....

I don't recall the argument. Don't you think it's a little presumptuous of yourself to sit there and take credit for running off a forum member? You sound just a little too high on yourself, please tell me you’re not touching yourself… :eek2:

[Steve]

Clinton had a policy that kept my American "ground troops" from ending up dead.
Bush has a bottomless pit for a policy (that equates to huge sums of money and American productivity). Therefore let Bush logic prevail. His success is our distraction!!!

[Cleetus]

I don't recall the argument. Don't you think it's a little presumptuous of yourself to sit there and take credit for running off a forum member? You sound just a little too high on yourself, please tell me you’re not touching yourself… :eek2:
Like I ever stop

[Ya_know]

Clinton had a policy that kept my American "ground troops" from ending up dead.
Bush has a bottomless pit for a policy (that equates to huge sums of money and American productivity). Therefore let Bush logic prevail. His success is our distraction!!!

Yeah, he bombed a country three times in less then 8 years, and never once planted a boot. Sure, it saved American lives...but at what cost? Credit for being a terrible wartime president?

I think the current conflicts are going remarkably well...the lives lost pale in comparison to any other conflict of this nature in the history of war fighting...

So what's your point Steve?

[Cleetus]

The point is that it was the great Clinton military that allowed for so few deaths. :thumbs:

[Ya_know]

The point is that it was the great Clinton military that allowed for so few deaths. :thumbs:

You mean the lack of use...

What was that one with the Dictator Milosevic (I forget the countries involved, the names changed every week)? We wasted time and effort, and sat on our hands through most of it...what about Somalia? We accomplished nothing there before pulling out...what a waste!

Clinton's "policy" of having no balls to commit or follow through with anything saved nothing, not even face!

[Cleetus]

WTF are you talking about???? Milosevec was taken down and put on trial

This same military was trained in these places to take out Afghanistan, remember what the Brits and the Russians couldn't do.

[Ya_know]

WTF are you talking about???? Milosevec was taken down and put on trial

This same military was trained in these places to take out Afghanistan, remember what the Brits and the Russians couldn't do.

The NATO forces were separating all over the place, Clinton couldn't get the US a strong command and control, and every coalition force wanted to get out of the clusterphuck. When Milosevic surrendered it was a complete surprise to everybody. We still had to go in and disarm forces from like 3 or 4 different sides but it wasn't very difficult in the end. However it wasn't well planned out at all, we simply got lucky!

[Steve]

WTF are you talking about???? Milosevec was taken down and put on trial

This same military was trained in these places to take out Afghanistan, remember what the Brits and the Russians couldn't do.

As you well informed patroits have established, scenarios exist everwhere for conflict around the globe. That is not a reason to established our presence with fighting ground troops. We have a duty to protect what we have not to try to dilute it somewhere else

[meatwad]

As you well informed patroits have established, scenarios exist everwhere for conflict around the globe. That is not a reason to established our presence with fighting ground troops. We have a duty to protect what we have not to try to dilute it somewhere else

You don't think that diluting threats elsewhere protects what we have?

[techs]

Here's another "coincidence"
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/06/politics/06anthrax.html

An upstate New York home and a Jersey Shore cottage owned by a doctor and self-described bioterrorism expert were searched yesterday by federal agents investigating the deadly 2001 anthrax attacks, but there was no apparent breakthrough in the long-running case.

We haven't heard anything about the Anhrax attacks in over a year. So the Feds just "happen" to search some homes so criticism of the Bush phony warnings on terrorism are forced off the news.

[Duke of Rezin]

So what would you have the Feds do, sit on their a$$es and do nothing? Maybe these raids have something with a scathing report being released criticizing the Feds for doing just that. As for Sodom, I mean Saddam, that guy was a time bomb waiting to go off. France, Russia, Germany, the free press and others had been underming and eroding the support of the British and US' efforts ever since the end of the first Gulf War. Saddam, whether he actually possessed WMD's at the time of the recent invasion or not, threatened the world's oil supply. Stop for a minute and try to comprehend just what that really means. It goes way beyond just the privilege of driving SUV's on US highways. The world is dependent now on oil for its very survival. Unless you are a hunter-gatherer or organic subsistence farmer every aspect of your life depends on the flow of oil, like it or not. We have a right to survival and if we can help the rest of the world in the process then that's just wonderful. So we got a few hotheads in the Middle East riled up, considering the alternative its a small price to pay. The only thing to criticize both Clinton and Bush concerning Iraq is lacking a cohesive plan for running Iraq once Saddam was out of the way. As for the long-range missiles, and to that I think you are referring to the ABM shield, that should go a long way to countering the threat of North Korea. Unlike Iraq, we or anybody else in the West can't invade North Korea because of threat from China and the threat of harm to South Korea so our options are really limited. The bugs have not been entirely worked out of the ABM program but they are being worked out and I WILL feel alot better once its been fully implemented.

[Steve]

So what would you have the Feds do, sit on their a$$es and do nothing? Maybe these raids have something with a scathing report being released criticizing the Feds for doing just that. As for Sodom, I mean Saddam, that guy was a time bomb waiting to go off. France, Russia, Germany, the free press and others had been underming and eroding the support of the British and US' efforts ever since the end of the first Gulf War. Saddam, whether he actually possessed WMD's at the time of the recent invasion or not, threatened the world's oil supply. Stop for a minute and try to comprehend just what that really means. It goes way beyond just the privilege of driving SUV's on US highways. The world is dependent now on oil for its very survival. Unless you are a hunter-gatherer or organic subsistence farmer every aspect of your life depends on the flow of oil, like it or not. We have a right to survival and if we can help the rest of the world in the process then that's just wonderful. So we got a few hotheads in the Middle East riled up, considering the alternative its a small price to pay. The only thing to criticize both Clinton and Bush concerning Iraq is lacking a cohesive plan for running Iraq once Saddam was out of the way. As for the long-range missiles, and to that I think you are referring to the ABM shield, that should go a long way to countering the threat of North Korea. Unlike Iraq, we or anybody else in the West can't invade North Korea because of threat from China and the threat of harm to South Korea so our options are really limited. The bugs have not been entirely worked out of the ABM program but they are being worked out and I WILL feel alot better once its been fully implemented.


What are your talking about Meatwad? They have been pounding Grandma
Barbara's sandbox now for the socalled Weapons of Mass destruction. They can
not find them!!! Saddam Husssein did not attack us. Hussein was at the right--far right place at the right time We are diluting our strength with these fist fights. We need to spend our time and money on energy independence

[Jediab]

What are your talking about Meatwad? They have been pounding Grandma
Barbara's sandbox now for the socalled Weapons of Mass destruction. They can
not find them!!! Saddam Husssein did not attack us. Hussein was at the right--far right place at the right time We are diluting our strength with these fist fights. We need to spend our time and money on energy independence

Define attack. No he did not declare war on us. He doesnt have the balls, nor is he that stupid to do so. No he did not invade the US or US territories. That would invoke full retaliation from NATO. But he did shoot at our planes that were flying over the no fly zone established by the UN. That is attacking us. And so in our need to spend our time an money on energy independence, we are just to ignor everything else?

[techs]

So what would you have the Feds do, sit on their a$$es and do nothing? Maybe these raids have something with a scathing report being released criticizing the Feds for doing just that. As for Sodom, I mean Saddam, that guy was a time bomb waiting to go off. France, Russia, Germany, the free press and others had been underming and eroding the support of the British and US' efforts ever since the end of the first Gulf War. Saddam, whether he actually possessed WMD's at the time of the recent invasion or not, threatened the world's oil supply. Stop for a minute and try to comprehend just what that really means. It goes way beyond just the privilege of driving SUV's on US highways. The world is dependent now on oil for its very survival. Unless you are a hunter-gatherer or organic subsistence farmer every aspect of your life depends on the flow of oil, like it or not. We have a right to survival and if we can help the rest of the world in the process then that's just wonderful. So we got a few hotheads in the Middle East riled up, considering the alternative its a small price to pay. The only thing to criticize both Clinton and Bush concerning Iraq is lacking a cohesive plan for running Iraq once Saddam was out of the way. As for the long-range missiles, and to that I think you are referring to the ABM shield, that should go a long way to countering the threat of North Korea. Unlike Iraq, we or anybody else in the West can't invade North Korea because of threat from China and the threat of harm to South Korea so our options are really limited. The bugs have not been entirely worked out of the ABM program but they are being worked out and I WILL feel alot better once its been fully implemented.

Our conflicting thoughts are the long run implications of invading Iraq. Obviously you think that the situation in Iraq will stabilize and we will have an ally that has the second largest oil reserves in the world. I believe that we have set in motion a hatred towards the US and the governments that we support/control.
I am sure Iran looked like it was going well until the Fundamentalists took over. I believe that within say 10 years we will be fighting in Saudi Arabia, Iraq and other Mid-east countries where the people have been so radicalized by our nations occupation/dominance that we will have far less oil than we do now.

As to missile defense. First off, does North Korea have nuclear bombs? How do we know? They told us? Maybe they told us so we wouldn't invade. I predict that after the election you will see a new CIA assessment that changes the idea they have the bomb to we're not sure. There have been numerous newspaper stories that indicate the CIA is "reassessing".
With terrorism so rampant and destroying a nucler power plant being so much easier than making a nuclear bomb and a missile to deliver it terrorism is far more of an immediate concern.

[Steve]

Define attack. No he did not declare war on us. He doesnt have the balls, nor is he that stupid to do so. No he did not invade the US or US territories. That would invoke full retaliation from NATO. But he did shoot at our planes that were flying over the no fly zone established by the UN. That is attacking us. And so in our need to spend our time an money on energy independence, we are just to ignor everything else?


Jediab, in reading your post I couldn't help but remember yet another coincidence. Remember the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution. The data that the
American people recieve has had next to no integrity from our current commander and chief and those that preceded them. The case in point that I would like to point you to is this recored conversation between he then Commander and Chief and McNamara just before we declared war on Viet Nam.
Listen for the term "35a" Click on the first Audio link "All things considered audio"
and listen to Walter Cronkite's perspective after he got the truth.
steve

[Steve]

Jediab, in reading your post I couldn't help but remember yet another coincidence. Remember the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution. The data that the
American people recieve has had next to no integrity from our current commander and chief and those that preceded them. The case in point that I would like to point you to is this recored conversation between he then Commander and Chief and McNamara just before we declared war on Viet Nam.
Listen for the term "35a" Click on the first Audio link "All things considered audio"
and listen to Walter Cronkite's perspective after he got the truth.
steve


Excuse me here is the link http://www.npr.org/features/feature.php?wfId=3810724

steve

[meatwad]

Hey Steve, make sure that you hit the right quote button next time chief.

Fact. Sadaam had weapons that he used on his own people.

Fact. Sadaam had illegal long range scud missles.

Fact. Working Mig fighter jets were found buried in the desert by American soldiers AFTER the US began it's invasion.

We've found FEW weapons, but don't say we haven't found any, because that just isn't correct.

[Wayward Clam]

Fact. No nuclear weapons were found.

Fact. No biological weapons were found.

Fact. No chemical weapons were found.

[meatwad]

Fact. No nuclear weapons were found.

Fact. No biological weapons were found.

Fact. No chemical weapons were found.

Why is it the U.N. was allowed to have 12 years, AND they said they needed more time to find them, but one year later the US are supposedly the idiots because we haven't found much yet?

[Steve]

Hey Steve, make sure that you hit the right quote button next time chief.

Fact. Sadaam had weapons that he used on his own people.

Fact. Sadaam had illegal long range scud missles.

Fact. Working Mig fighter jets were found buried in the desert by American soldiers AFTER the US began it's invasion.

We've found FEW weapons, but don't say we haven't found any, because that just isn't correct.

We made sure Saddam H. had weapons to fight the (our) ten year war with Iran.
What was so special about Kuwait? I am not that naive.
steve

[Wayward Clam]

No, your government are idiots because they insisted that two out of three of these existed, and that they were a major reason for the invasion, and now they won't admit that there is egg on their face when they couldn't find them after the fact.

The UN should be PROUD of the fact that they were unwilling to invade without conclusive proof.

Would YOU appreciate it if someone blew up your house with a missile based on sketchy intelligence about whether you owned a nuke or not?

[meatwad]

No, your government are idiots because they insisted that two out of three of these existed, and that they were a major reason for the invasion, and now they won't admit that there is egg on their face when they couldn't find them after the fact.

The UN should be PROUD of the fact that they were unwilling to invade without conclusive proof.

Would YOU appreciate it if someone blew up your house with a missile based on sketchy intelligence about whether you owned a nuke or not?

They did, as well as the British, admit that there was egg on there face. They admitted that they had incorrect information. Would you be shocked if you were arrested because the cops had information that you were selling drugs, when low and behold you'd been convicted several times in the past for being a drug dealer?

[Major Kong]

We made sure Saddam H. had weapons to fight the (our) ten year war with Iran.
What was so special about Kuwait? I am not that naive.
steveUmmm...I just want to point out that though you may be partially correct in your statement the last time I looked the US doesn't supply MIGs and SCUDS to folks. I just wanted to point that out. What is sort of interesting though and what would have been real kewl is if they had found a few Mirage's in the Iraqi desert. http://forums.windrivers.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif That would have been really embarrassing.

Now everybody carry on.

[Wayward Clam]

They did, as well as the British, admit that there was egg on there face. They admitted that they had incorrect information. Would you be shocked if you were arrested because the cops had information that you were selling drugs, when low and behold you'd been convicted several times in the past for being a drug dealer?

When you're arrested, you have civil rights. Also, if you didn't have any drugs, you would get off scott-free.

Not so when you are invaded.

I'm not saying Saddam should have gotten off scott free. But what about the thousands of Iraqis killed in the invasion?

[meatwad]

When you're arrested, you have civil rights. Also, if you didn't have any drugs, you would get off scott-free.

Not so when you are invaded.

I'm not saying Saddam should have gotten off scott free. But what about the thousands of Iraqis killed in the invasion?

Or the tens of thousands that were saved by removing him.

[Wayward Clam]

Or the tens of thousands that were saved by removing him.

Many more are dying in other places that don't have oil...

[meatwad]

Many more are dying in other places that don't have oil...

And....

You're not proving that going into Iraq was bad, your just making the point that we still have a lot of work to do.

[Wayward Clam]

And....

You're not proving that going into Iraq was bad, your just making the point that we still have a lot of work to do.

I never MADE the point that going into Iraq was bad. The point I made was that the US did it for the wrong REASONS.

[techs]

Hey Steve, make sure that you hit the right quote button next time chief.

Fact. Sadaam had weapons that he used on his own people.

Fact. Sadaam had illegal long range scud missles.

Fact. Working Mig fighter jets were found buried in the desert by American soldiers AFTER the US began it's invasion.

We've found FEW weapons, but don't say we haven't found any, because that just isn't correct.

Fact: He HAD them. Past tense.

Fact: Saddam had illegal long range scud missiles. Yes, but they couldn't reach the US. They had a theoretical range of less than 700 miles.

Fact: Working MIg fighters? He had working Imig fighters NOT hidden in the desert.

We've found some weapons?
Are you watching Fox again?
We have found no WMD. Despite how Fox has tried to confuse you.

[meatwad]

I never MADE the point that going into Iraq was bad. The point I made was that the US did it for the wrong REASONS.

So what's the problem?

[Wayward Clam]

So what's the problem?

Who's next, and when, and more importantly, WHY?