Chechen Hostages.

[confus-ed]

I haven't seen a thread about this here, so here's one.

School captives face second night (http://uk.news.yahoo.com/040902/325/f1tqa.html)

Terrible & appalling :sad:

Quick summary : Chechen rebels have seized a school with over 350, mostly very small children, as hostages, & 7 definately dead so far.

[jitBob]

I just hope to God that they don't try the "sleeping gas" approach again. Can there be anyone lower than an armed group fighting a government taking children hostage. I would believe that this should help to galvanize mothers and fathers around the entire world to fight terrorism. I know it p!sses me off.

[TechZ]

Yeah, sad, heard it on WD Chat,


yes i invaded their territory too ;) Have to WOTPP everywhere in WD!

[inferno_gn]

Hi there,

Well, I really hope that they don't say that it's God that tells them to do this, because, I doubt, that in any religion, God would allow to do something to hurt all innocent children.

Ju Leon...

[Radical Dreamer]

Bunch of pussies must not be able to take real hostages, so they resort to women and children.

[3fingersalute]

Bunch of pussies must not be able to take real hostages, so they resort to women and children.

Yeah, although anybody who needs to take a hostage is a pussy in my opinion.

[TechZ]

What will they get by taking hostages, THE GOVERNMENT???? The just make it worse for themselves and their 'cause'

[gazzak]

Sick f***ers taking kids. Can't imagine what the parents must be going through. I just hope the Russians don't ever give in to them and they all die a slow grissly death, (the hostages)!

[NooNoo]

I can't begin to think about what those parents are going through. I pray I never have to.

[confus-ed]

Russian special forces have gone in literally as I type, if you are near a TV & can get a live news channel, tune in now ..

[TechZ]

This might be bad..... :(

[gazzak]

Apparently they were going to start killing hostages so the forces HAD to go in. Looks like it's over now but damage assesment is taking place. Parents and kids still not reunited yet.

[TechZ]

THey were using kids as shields!

[confus-ed]

TASS : 16 or more killed, & russian forces now in 'Full control' ..

I can still hear shooting in the background though on the live coverage ..

[PuterGeekGirl]

TASS : 16 or more killed, & russian forces now in 'Full control' ..

I can still hear shooting in the background though on the live coverage ..


16 dead is awful...but thank god there wasn't more......I feel so bad for those parents.... :sad: :sad:


Update: 310 hurt....7 Killed...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5881958/

[confus-ed]

Sadly, on news channels here now, I'm seeing reports of over a hundred in addition to those fatalities already reported :sad: :sad: :sad:

.. when I can find a link I'll post it.

[confus-ed]

Bloody end to Russia school siege (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3624024.stm)

..At least 100 bodies have reportedly been found in a school in southern Russia where Chechen separatists had been holding hundreds of hostages...

[PuterGeekGirl]

Bloody end to Russia school siege (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3624024.stm)

:sad: :sad: :sad:

[gazzak]

We live in a sick society. Sometimes I think the world would be a better place without the animals called human beings.

[meatwad]

We live in a sick society. Sometimes I think the world would be a better place without the animals called human beings.

It's only because as a human you are aware of what's going on around you.

[jitBob]

I just read read that most of the dead are children who were running away. http://forums.windrivers.com/images/smilies/sad2.gif

[Camaro80z]

It is stories like this that make me see how lucky I was to be born in the greatest country in the world.

[thorian]

I have a bunch of comments but I am not going to air them in this list.
As it would just make me look like a bigot.

[El_Squid]

I just read read that most of the dead are children who were running away. http://forums.windrivers.com/images/smilies/sad2.gif
It is always the innocent and the weak that are the victims of these cowards. They use our own sense of horror and outrage against us, by threatening children, women and non-combatants. That is why they should not be protected by the laws of war, nor by the rights given a soldier. They are carrion eaters of the worst sort and should be obliterated from the face of the Earth!

[Camaro80z]

It is always the innocent and the weak that are the victims of these cowards. They use our own sense of horror and outrage against us, by threatening children, women and non-combatants. That is why they should not be protected by the laws of war, nor by the rights given a soldier. They are carrion eaters of the worst sort and should be obliterated from the face of the Earth!

Be careful, otherwise you might hurt their feelings. And we can not have you infringing on thier rights like that! :devil:

[paraflyer]

Be careful, otherwise you might hurt their feelings. And we can not have you infringing on thier rights like that! :devil:

Why, because they're Muslim Extremeists? :devil: :devil: :devil:

There, I said it, flame away.

I just saw this thread, I'm crossposting this link from the Politicos forum, y'all may find it interesting:

http://www.nationalreview.com/kopel/kopel200409022215.asp

[Radical Dreamer]

I dont care if I hurt someones feelings, the Islamic followers are a bunch of sick ****s. It may not be EVERY one, but there are too many ****ed up ones for my likeing.

[Camaro80z]

Why, because they're Muslim Extremeists? :devil: :devil: :devil:

There, I said it, flame away.

I just saw this thread, I'm crossposting this link from the Politicos forum, y'all may find it interesting:

http://www.nationalreview.com/kopel/kopel200409022215.asp

I personally wondered why their religion was never mentioned, even though religion is a big issue in this. If this was a Christian or Jewish group, the religion would be all over the headlines. Look at what happens when a cult is found. Remember Waco?

I know that all muslims are insane enough to do this. But the percentage is wayyyy too high. There is something that needs to be done. I think this may be a chicken and egg type of problem. Is the religion causing the fundamentalists and violence, or are the people that already have these insane tendancies being drawn to islam?

[El_Squid]

Muslim or not, people who take children hostage, attack schools, bus stops, and innocent civilians in general need to be flamed! It is inexcusable and cowardly beyond words. It makes me sick every time I hear that "human shield" crap!

They captured three of the SOBs alive and apparently have confirmed several of the dead ones as Arabs. It will be enlightening to see what the Russian investigators uncover.

[confus-ed]

Everytime I read something about this it appears to get worse ...

At least 335 people, half of them children, were killed ..

Russia mourns hostage deaths (http://uk.news.yahoo.com/040906/325/f1zqm.html)

[jitBob]

Everytime I read something about this it appears to get worse ...



Russia mourns hostage deaths (http://uk.news.yahoo.com/040906/325/f1zqm.html)
http://forums.windrivers.com/images/smilies/sad2.gif http://forums.windrivers.com/images/smilies/sad2.gif http://forums.windrivers.com/images/smilies/sad2.gif http://forums.windrivers.com/images/smilies/sad2.gif http://forums.windrivers.com/images/smilies/sad2.gif

[firemonkey]

ok does anyone beleve for a sec. that these animals would hesitate to do this same thing to your children, these scum used children as human shields, executed them shot them in the back, gouged there eyes out, while they were living. When the children asked for water they were told to drink there urine.

Please don't kid your self for one sec, these are the same people that are killing our service men in Iraq, so lets see they have killed a few 1000 poeple here, with both attacks on 9/11, and the previous WTC bombing. The bombing in Spain, the plaines in russia, and now this. Any one still wanna cover your eyes and pretend that we are not at war? Anyone wanna pull out and wait for them to come KILL you, yes these people want you and your child dead. Cause you are a indifel.


next time you feel the need to complain about the US in Iraq imagine burying a empty casket for you loved one cause there is not enugh to put in it, like the few thousend that have killed.

[paraflyer]

I dont care if I hurt someones feelings, the Islamic followers are a bunch of sick ****s. It may not be EVERY one, but there are too many ****ed up ones for my likeing.

Well, at the risk of getting flamed by someone....anyone notice the trend here?

"It wasn't no-name militants or wayward guerrillas who have butchered, beheaded and slaughtered thousands of innocents over the last three years alone. Anniversary reality check:

In the name of Allah, Muslim terrorists in Russia stabbed babies to death, shot toddlers in the back, forced children to eat rose petals and drink their own urine, raped teenage girls, executed their teachers and blew themselves up in a crowded school gymnasium. Death toll: 338.

In the name of Allah, Muslim terrorists in Spain detonated bombs on four commuter trains during Madrid's rush hour. Death toll: 190.

In the name of Allah, Muslim terrorists in Bali blew up a beach resort with an electronically triggered bomb at one bar and a car bomb hidden in a van at another nightclub filled with young Western tourists on holiday. Death toll: 202.

In the name of Allah, Muslim terrorists in Pakistan kidnapped and beheaded American journalist Daniel Pearl.

In the name of Allah, Muslim terrorists in Saudi Arabia kidnapped and beheaded American engineer Paul Johnson.

In the name of Allah, Muslim terrorists in Iraq kidnapped and beheaded American independent contractor Nick Berg.

In the name of Allah, Muslim terrorists in Iraq kidnapped and executed Italian security guard Fabrizio Quattrocchi.

In the name of Allah, Muslim terrorists in the Philippines kidnapped and killed American missionary Martin Burnham.

In the name of Allah, Muslim terrorists in Israel engineered near-simultaneous suicide attacks on two buses, killing at least 15 people.

In the name of Allah, Muslim terrorists in Morocco waged suicide bombing attacks in Casablanca.

In the name of Allah, Muslim terrorists in Turkey bombed synagogues and the British consulate.

In the name of Allah, Muslim terrorists in America hijacked and incinerated three planes full of men, women and children, trapped pregnant women and firefighters in smoke-filled stairways, and forced office workers to leap 99 stories to their deaths after saying final prayers from the ledges of the World Trade Center on a peaceful September morning. Death toll: 3,000."

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/michellemalkin/mm20040908.shtml

[paraflyer]

I personally wondered why their religion was never mentioned, even though religion is a big issue in this. If this was a Christian or Jewish group, the religion would be all over the headlines. Look at what happens when a cult is found. Remember Waco?

I know that all muslims are insane enough to do this. But the percentage is wayyyy too high. There is something that needs to be done. I think this may be a chicken and egg type of problem. Is the religion causing the fundamentalists and violence, or are the people that already have these insane tendancies being drawn to islam?

I can just see the Sarah Brady, the VPC, etc., with this one: "Guns cause Violence, therefore Islam breeds Terrorism" :devil:

[Cleetus]

So then does that mean we are at war with Muslims?

[meatwad]

So then does that mean we are at war with Muslims?

Just the crazy ones. They kind of remind me of the Klan.

[Cleetus]

And if they are crazy, why would they care if we took out Saddam? And how would we find them before they did something to us, while we are throwing away our money and our soldiers lives in Iraq, all the while Osama is still out there?

[El_Squid]

So then does that mean we are at war with Muslims?
The radical muslims have been at war with us for decades. They haven't been hiding under a rock, we have been watching them on TV for a long time. We just never took them seriously, with all that Holy War and Great Satan stuff. In fact, if you listen closely, they are still upset about the crusades, so from their perspective we may have been at war for close to a millenium.

What makes this so hard for us to grasp and stomach, is that it is a group of radical religious sects, spanning most of the Earth in their influence, which is at war with us. Our enemies in this conflict are all Muslim, but not all Muslims are our enemies.

[meatwad]

And if they are crazy, why would they care if we took out Saddam? And how would we find them before they did something to us, while we are throwing away our money and our soldiers lives in Iraq, all the while Osama is still out there?

Cause they're crazy?

[paraflyer]

And if they are crazy, why would they care if we took out Saddam? And how would we find them before they did something to us, while we are throwing away our money and our soldiers lives in Iraq, all the while Osama is still out there?

So, then grab yer rifle and start hunting for him...I believe the bounty is still available. :p

[Cleetus]

So, then grab yer rifle and start hunting for him...I believe the bounty is still available. :p
Damn, could you imagine an open season down here in the south, esp if they let us use spotlights and have beer and stuff. I could gaurantee you I would be getting drunk and droppin' me some crazy muslim ****ers every weekend.

[NooNoo]

Interesting post Paraflyer.

Look at the Northern Ireland situation - you will find very close parallels... not quite up to the 9/11 disaster, but disaster enough. These people committed murder in the name of God.... be it Catholic or Protestant God.

The point is that religion is far too often used to justify that which religion purports to be against.

Over the centuries, aggressors of every religious persuasion have saught to wipe out those they see as a threat to their way of life or have decided that they require forceably converting to their religion.

The actions of these people haven't changed down the centuries, just that the tools for creating human misery have got more efficient.

[confus-ed]

..The point is that religion is far too often used to justify that which religion purports to be against...

You appear along with 1/2 of America to have missed the point !!!

& that's what worries me .. its all very well various folks rattling their sabres etc & calling for yet more useless wars against, well who ? - if I listen to the tone in this thread all the rednecks are no off a religious crusade against muslims in general..

Not only our bible says 'an eye for an eye, & a tooth for a tooth' - but theirs does too & its a belief & outlook very central to their belief, if George et al keep this approach up, you aren't just gonna have a few extremists to worry about, but the whole damn lot of 'em, & that's over 700 million worldwide .. Continued ill considered actions & lies about the reasons for war, only give the extremists more credence within a generally much less extreme religious group.

[paraflyer]

You appear along with 1/2 of America to have missed the point !!!

& that's what worries me .. its all very well various folks rattling their sabres etc & calling for yet more useless wars against, well who ? - if I listen to the tone in this thread all the rednecks are no off a religious crusade against muslims in general..

Not only our bible says 'an eye for an eye, & a tooth for a tooth' - but theirs does too & its a belief & outlook very central to their belief, if George et al keep this approach up, you aren't just gonna have a few extremists to worry about, but the whole damn lot of 'em, & that's over 700 million worldwide .. Continued ill considered actions & lies about the reasons for war, only give the extremists more credence within a generally much less extreme religious group.

So what would you have us do? Ignore them, hoping they'll go away?

[confus-ed]

So what would you have us do? Ignore them, hoping they'll go away?

I dunno what the answer to world terrorism is anymore than our various leaders seem to, but what I am absolutely convinced of, being very close to a mini punjab in the shape of Bradford (for anyone outside the UK this is a city where well more than 1/2 of folks are from 'an asian ethic background') is that 'riling' the moderate Muslims (especially with various thoughts expressed in this thread) is really not the way forward what-so-ever .. the extremists can't succeed without the help of, or at least, 'tacit' support, from the general law abiding & non violent majority of Muslims - hate breeds hate - was nobody else paying attention in history or what !?!?!

[NooNoo]

You appear along with 1/2 of America to have missed the point !!!



No I don't think so, I was making the point that historically no single religious group is better than another when it comes to justifying murder in the name of their deity.

So what would you have us do? Ignore them, hoping they'll go away?

Again, if we (the whole of humanity) haven't worked out how to prevent this in the last 10,000 or so years then solving this problem before the year is out is about as likely as [insert extremely unlikely event here]

Ignoring it doesn't help, nor it seems, does fighting. We are looking for the "third alternative" which is defined in grammatical terms as impossible.

[El_Squid]

... 'riling' the moderate Muslims (especially with various thoughts expressed in this thread) is really not the way forward what-so-ever .. the extremists can't succeed without the help of, or at least, 'tacit' support, from the general law abiding & non violent majority of Muslims - hate breeds hate - was nobody else paying attention in history or what !?!?!
The radical Muslims already had the 'tacit' support of the 'moderate' Islamic governments, as the Saudis, Egyptians, etc. were appeasing them and paying them off in the hopes they would keep their destructive energies focused on the West, particularly the USA.

Now, the time has come for moderate Muslims, Christians, Buddhists, etc. to make an unequivocable stand against terrorism of any sort. In today's world, we can no longer tolerate this type of behavior, by anyone. Not by the radical Muslims, not by rabid Irishmen, not by Columbian Drug Lords, not by any 'People's Liberation' this, that nor the other.

Obviously, the military solution is not the entire answer, it is the beginning. Once the larger organized bodies have been brought down, the nations of the world need to follow up with consistent, substantial, unencumbered aid. Bring Iraq and Afghanistan into this millenium. Remove the terrorists' power base by eliminating the disenfranchized, the impovershed and the ignorant masses. They need to be taught how to improve their lives and societies and given an opportunity to do so. The entire world will benefit.

[paraflyer]

No I don't think so, I was making the point that historically no single religious group is better than another when it comes to justifying murder in the name of their deity.


Again, if we (the whole of humanity) haven't worked out how to prevent this in the last 10,000 or so years then solving this problem before the year is out is about as likely as [insert extremely unlikely event here]

Ignoring it doesn't help, nor it seems, does fighting. We are looking for the "third alternative" which is defined in grammatical terms as impossible.

Wow...just read the following from your side of the pond:

"An extremist Islamic cleric based in Britain said yesterday that he would support hostage-taking at British schools if carried out by terrorists with a just cause.

Omar Bakri Mohammed, the spiritual leader of the extremist sect al-Muhajiroun, said that holding women and children hostage would be a reasonable course of action for a Muslim who has suffered under British rule"

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/09/05/wosse705.xml

Doesn't exactly sound like they're interested in NOT targeting innocents.

[confus-ed]

No I don't think so, I was making the point that historically no single religious group is better than another when it comes to justifying murder in the name of their deity..

Ok then maybe I'm being a touch 'harsh' on you, yes historically we've been far, far worse, the crusaders generally where in it for the loot & power & not even faith !! .. However at least that was 900 odd years ago, but some of the sentiments expressed thus far have a worrying tendancy to think 'a la George' & pressume somehow a great big stick will sort it all out ...

I seem to recall Putin spouting this 'hard on Terror' line & what has it got him ? An entire country full of folks pissed off with him one way or another & prepared to take such extreme action to pursue their agenda, no doubt when he loses his next election, George might take a little notice ! - though personally I'd prefer it if he managed to sit up & take notice now ..

[confus-ed]

Wow...just read the following from your side of the pond:...

..Doesn't exactly sound like they're interested in NOT targeting innocents.

& that my friend is why I'm so damn worried - I live less than 5 miles away from an entire city of folks who mightn't completely agree with this outlook, but might turn a blind eye to those that do ! (or be compelled to do so by the rest of their community)..

3% of this country is Muslim - thats nearly 1.5 million 'potential' (& I use the word most advisedly) terrorists if they all start finding this 'reasonable' ...

[jitBob]

Moderate Muslem clerics MUST renounce extremism in the name of their religion. They must preach love of Allah (GOD) and of their fellow man. We in the West must support them and also preach love of GOD (Allah) and our fellow man.

However, we need to keep a large stick close to hand to protect our families and nations until these radical beliefs can be changed.

[meatwad]

Moderate Muslem clerics MUST renounce extremism in the name of their religion. They must preach love of Allah (GOD) and of their fellow man. We in the West must support them and also preach love of GOD (Allah) and our fellow man.

However, we need to keep a large stick close to hand to protect our families and nations until these radical beliefs can be changed.

The problem with that is, from what I can tell, Allah and God are not the same being.

[paraflyer]

Moderate Muslem clerics MUST renounce extremism in the name of their religion. They must preach love of Allah (GOD) and of their fellow man. We in the West must support them and also preach love of GOD (Allah) and our fellow man.

However, we need to keep a large stick close to hand to protect our families and nations until these radical beliefs can be changed.

As well as not allowing government to take away my right to armed self-defense.

My "stick" isn't as big as some the Armed Forces may have, but it'll still reach out and touch a terrorist at 300 yards (even more if I work at it).

[ilovetheusers]

The problem with that is, from what I can tell, Allah and God are not the same being.


Allah, Jehova and God are all the same diety. Thier worshipers just follow different profits and doctrines.

[ilovetheusers]

The radical Muslims already had the 'tacit' support of the 'moderate' Islamic governments, as the Saudis, Egyptians, etc. were appeasing them and paying them off in the hopes they would keep their destructive energies focused on the West, particularly the USA.

Now, the time has come for moderate Muslims, Christians, Buddhists, etc. to make an unequivocable stand against terrorism of any sort. In today's world, we can no longer tolerate this type of behavior, by anyone. Not by the radical Muslims, not by rabid Irishmen, not by Columbian Drug Lords, not by any 'People's Liberation' this, that nor the other.

Obviously, the military solution is not the entire answer, it is the beginning. Once the larger organized bodies have been brought down, the nations of the world need to follow up with consistent, substantial, unencumbered aid. Bring Iraq and Afghanistan into this millenium. Remove the terrorists' power base by eliminating the disenfranchized, the impovershed and the ignorant masses. They need to be taught how to improve their lives and societies and given an opportunity to do so. The entire world will benefit.

No I don't think so, I was making the point that historically no single religious group is better than another when it comes to justifying murder in the name of their deity.


I think what we may see happening is that there are radicals who have formed cults and use religion to their advantage in order to justify actions and keep their people "brainwashed" so to speak.

Still, as Squid has pointed out, even the mainstream of the religion supports a lot of the evil that the radicals do. Why?

[confus-ed]

So ITLU has gone & started a thread on the religous slant of all of this over here - Muslim nations (http://forums.windrivers.com/showthread.php?t=63582) - I think considering the nature of this thread, any 'blaming' is best done on that one ?

[Zil]

Allah, Jehova and God are all the same diety. Thier worshipers just follow different profits and doctrines.



*Disclaimer: I don't want to turn this into a religious debate thread, I just want to state this.*


They are not the same and neither is the dogma or doctrine of their worshippers.

[corturbra]

I wanna know where were the security services in all of this? How can that many people acquire that much explosive/weapons without an eyebrow being raised somewhere?

And I think it was a sick and cowardly attack, but then what is new for a radical fundamentalist?

[El_Squid]

So ITLU has gone & started a thread on the religous slant of all of this over here - Muslim nations (http://forums.windrivers.com/showthread.php?t=63582) - I think considering the nature of this thread, any 'blaming' is best done on that one ?
Didn't see that one, sorry.

I do not I hate all Muslims. I made some very good friends in the Lybian student community at OU and lived with a group of them for a couple of years. I know the difference between a radical Muslim and a moderate one. Kind of like the difference between rabid ultra fundamentalist Christians and the rest.

The point is that the atrocities committed against the students and faculty in that Russian school, by radical Muslims, are totally unacceptable and monstrous. The same would be true of any group killing innocent civilians in the name of their 'cause'. The unavoidable fact is that radical Muslims are the ones carrying out these acts of terrorism on a daily basis, around the world. They are not denying this, in fact they boast of it and threaten us with more. They should be held accountable and dealt with accordingly.