Im trying to setup a network on XP with 3 pcs but at this stage I am unable to see any computers within PC 1 which is the main computer.
They are all running XP Pro and PC 2 and 3 are connected via a wireless network. PC 3 has connection problems so Im leaving that alone for now.
PC 1 doesnt see itself under the workgroup MSHOME or my network places. All computers are in the same workgroup MSHOME and I have netbios over tcp/ip enabled. Computers are set to obtain ip's automatically and are set as 192.168.0.1 xxx.0.2 and xxx.0.3
If I go to PC 2 I am able to see its own shared folders as well as the shared folders on PC1. But I cannot see any shared folders on PC 1 including its own shared folders.
If I open IE and type \\127.0.0.1 (file://\127.0.0.1) or \\computername (file://\computername) whilst on PC 1 it does show the shared files on PC 1 so I think all thats setup right. I just cant see them via network places which although probably shouldnt matter as I can see them on the other PC. But thats beside the point as it should work and doesnt. I have setup another network the same way and it worked fine.
Any suggestions??
Thanks in advance...
riddellcomp
October 15th, 2004, 09:12 AM
Just to add to the above, this computer is setup as follows.
PC 1 is connected to a Dlink adsl 4 port router. The Netgear wireless router is connected to one of the ports and the other 2 pc's connect to this wireless router via pci wireless cards. They are able to surf the net no problems.
Should PC 1 perhaps be connected to another port on the wireless router? Will this make a difference to how everything is seen?
Still doesnt explain why PC 3 can see the shared folders form PC 1 though but not the other way around?
Does anyone have some ideas on this????
GreenGrime
October 15th, 2004, 09:35 AM
Does the Windows administrator account have a password on all PCs?
Or are you using an account with and identical name-password to access the shared folders?
riddellcomp
October 15th, 2004, 09:42 AM
The administrator account has no password at all. I am using simple file sharing so each computer just logs on with its own local administrator username and no password. The guest account is turned on in PC 1.
confus-ed
October 15th, 2004, 10:05 AM
GUEST account ? .. danger WIll Robinson moment !, you don't want one of them, especially not one with NO password ! & really 'simple sharing' is yet another 'accident waiting to happen' .. I know this doesn't really help with these 'connection' issues just now - but read this @labmice (very handy site btw!) (http://labmice.techtarget.com/articles/winxpsecuritychecklist.htm)
The guest account has always been a huge hacker hole, and should be disabled as soon as you install your workstation. Unfortunately, this setting recommendation only applies to Windows XP Professional computers that belong to a domain, or to computers that do not use the Simple File Sharing model. Windows XP Home Edition will not allow you to disable the Guest account. When you disable the Guest account in Windows XP Home Edition via the Control Panel, it only removes the listing of the Guest account from the Fast User Switching Welcome screen, and the Log-On Local right. The network credentials will remain intact and guest users will still be able to connect to shared resources of the affected machine across a network. Microsoft Knowledge Base Article: 300489 describes this behavior and states that it is by design. The best workaround for XP Home Users is to assign a strong password to the Guest account.
Then I think maybe you might want to reconsider your plan ? ;)
hudsonsmith
October 15th, 2004, 10:23 AM
Should PC 1 perhaps be connected to another port on the wireless router?
I would try it. It could be that the netgear router is acting as the dhcp server, in which case pc1 would not be assigned an address if it is connected to the dlink.
riddellcomp
October 15th, 2004, 10:48 AM
GUEST account ? .. danger WIll Robinson moment !, you don't want one of them, especially not one with NO password ! & really 'simple sharing' is yet another 'accident waiting to happen' .. I know this doesn't really help with these 'connection' issues just now - but read this @labmice (very handy site btw!) (http://labmice.techtarget.com/articles/winxpsecuritychecklist.htm)
Then I think maybe you might want to reconsider your plan ? ;)
okay so your suggesting I go back and disable simple file sharing? Then If I create user accounts with no passwords on PC 1 for PC 2 and PC 3 should PC 2 and PC 3 have no problems trying to access PC 1s shared folders??
GreenGrime
October 15th, 2004, 10:49 AM
If you are not using the same user account with the same password on all PCs to access the shares, then you need to put a password on the admin account (the same on all PCs).
Windows XP will not let you access shares properly with a passwordless admin account.
confus-ed
October 15th, 2004, 12:00 PM
okay so your suggesting I go back and disable simple file sharing? Then If I create user accounts with no passwords on PC 1 for PC 2 and PC 3 should PC 2 and PC 3 have no problems trying to access PC 1s shared folders??
Err nope, I think I was saying that a guest account is bad, & a guest account with no password is worse, & that simple file sharing is bad too (well not in a domain & connected to the net it is) - & I knew this might change your mind about what you are doing .. here I'd ask are you sure you've got all the firewalls off & that nothing (like the network setup wizard perhaps as it does) has turned any of them on ?
riddellcomp
October 15th, 2004, 06:37 PM
Ed,
Have triple checked that the firewalls are off. We did try to run the Network setup wizard as a last resort but at the end got a message saying that an error was encounted, with no other information. Thats what makes me think that something is not right but what and where???
And yes we did go back to disable the firewall but it was off anyway. SP2 is installed on this computer, could that cause problems? Perhaps we should resort back to a time before sp2???
riddellcomp
October 15th, 2004, 11:43 PM
What would be the best way to setup this network? PC 2 and 3 belong to his daughters and connect to PC 1 via a wireless connection purely for internet access and to print to the local printer on PC 1. He doesnt want passwords set on PC 2 and 3 as his daughters are 8 and 6 and wouldnt remember them anyway.
What do you suggest???
hudsonsmith
October 16th, 2004, 09:03 AM
I have a similar setup. As I said above, try connecting pc1 to the netgear router as well. Configure it to use the netbios setting from the dhcp server. Hopefully that will solve its ability to see the other two.
As far as security, I don't see a big issue in not requiring passwords as long as 1) all 3 pc's are nat'ed behind the router 2) you run a software firewall like zonealarm or sp2's on top and 3) you limit which folders are shared. With XP, even though you can see the other pc's on the network, you only have access to the folders specifically designated. Limit these to non-system document folders only. Think about whether you need to grant anything more than read access.
I don't think the guest account needs to be enabled. I don't have it enabled on my network and the computers are able to connect to each other and browse the shared folders.
gazzak
October 16th, 2004, 09:55 AM
Don't flame me until you at least give this a try....
Go to tcp/ip advanced settings - wins - and check "enable netbios over tcp/ip"
Even if you're not running wins, just try it.
(EDIT: that's if riddles suggestion don't hep!)
riddellcomp
October 18th, 2004, 06:38 AM
Don't flame me until you at least give this a try....
Go to tcp/ip advanced settings - wins - and check "enable netbios over tcp/ip"
Even if you're not running wins, just try it.
(EDIT: that's if riddles suggestion don't hep!)
I wont flame you because I have already done this. Before I did this I kept getting the following error.
"MSHOME is not accessible. You might not have permission......Contact the admin of the server to find out if you have access permission....
When trying to open and view the MShome workgroup.
I then enabled NetBIOS over TCP/IP and was able to at least open My network places and view an otherwise empty MShome folder.
riddellcomp
October 18th, 2004, 08:43 AM
Okay well according to the owner of this network he already has PC 1 connected to the router and the router connected to the adsl modem. Although I havent been there lately to verify this.
What could be wrong with this network???? Why is it that PC 2 can see the shared files on PC 1 but PC 1 cannot see itself or its own shared files in the workgroup??? The only thing left to try is create new workgroup names but other than that Im all out of ideas????
confus-ed
October 18th, 2004, 09:46 AM
Where do all these home clients think their dns comes from ? The isp or your router ? - I think thats whats amiss, not knowing what it should resolve with with what where, which is the trouble with peer to peer, something still should serve the resolution, just one place, not several..
& have you seen this bit 'new' in sp2 ? - Windows Peer-to-Peer Networking (http://www.microsoft.com/technet/prodtechnol/winxppro/deploy/p2pintro.mspx) (I hadn't but I want to know what it does :D)
riddellcomp
October 18th, 2004, 10:47 PM
Where do all these home clients think their dns comes from ? The isp or your router ? - I think thats whats amiss, not knowing what it should resolve with with what where, which is the trouble with peer to peer, something still should serve the resolution, just one place, not several..
& have you seen this bit 'new' in sp2 ? - Windows Peer-to-Peer Networking (http://www.microsoft.com/technet/prodtechnol/winxppro/deploy/p2pintro.mspx) (I hadn't but I want to know what it does :D)Im not really sure but here is the settings from PC 2 which can see shared files from PC 1 as well as its own. (The DNS servers listed are for the ISP as I have checked them against my own as we both use the same ISP.)
Oooo ! .. 3 DNS servers no wonder its confus-ed ! ;)
There's 6 general ways of doing name resolution for networks, they are in 'Billys preferentional order' ; -
NetBIOS broadcasts
HOSTS files
LMHOSTS files
Domain Name Server (DNS)
Windows Internet Name Service (WINS)
Dynamic DNS
See this (which is v good) -Name Registration and Resolution in Windows NT (http://www.windowsitlibrary.com/Content/155/06/1.html)
So at the minute we are using the first, & have half heartedly attempted to use wins too;- but lets have another go You cannot access shared files and folders or browse computers in the workgroup -Q318030 (http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb%3Ben-us%3B318030&Product=winxp) as ..You receive the following error message when you double-click the workgroup in My Network Places:
Workgroup Name is not accessible. You may not have permission to use this network resource...
& as I never said earlier, I think you are best served with named accounts, other than guest, even if you don't use passwords (once we've got it going you can secure it as suggested earlier with settings on your router & local firewalls).
riddellcomp
October 19th, 2004, 07:59 AM
Ed,
Okay im getting just a teeny bit confused here so will point out my confused-ness one step at a time.
1. Although there are 3 dns server entrys on PC 2, this comp does not seem to have a problem accessing its own shared files or the other computers shared files.
2.We have turned off the guest account but are using simple file sharing anyway. PC 1 logs in as Anthony with a blank password, while PC 2 logs in as Lauren with a blank password. I know with XP Pro file sharing you have to setup user accounts on the main pc for access by a remote computer (eg PC 1 would need a user account "lauren" for PC2-lauren to access it.)However assumed that is not the case with simple file sharing (Especially as PC 2 can access shared files as is anyway.)
3. I have already enabled netbios over tcp/ip and made sure the browser service was running. That fixed my original problem of getting the error message...
Workgroup Name is not accessible. You may not have permission to use this network resource.
However I still cannot see PC 1 in the workgroup.
I havent bothered so much in trying to get the network up and running properly as I figured the main problem is that I cant see PC 1 in the workgroup whilst I am on PC1....However PC 2 is working fine and can see all shared files on both pc's anyway.
Tonight I uninstalled Nortons security and renamed the workgroup and computers. I also uninstalled SP2 but still have problems.
Here is a rundown.
On PC2 I can ping PC 1 by IP and can access shared files from pc1.
But I cannot ping PC 1 by name.
On PC1 I can ping PC 2 by name and IP address
So...as you can see my problem is that PC 1 does not see any computers on the network including itself or any shared files. PC 2 can see itself on the network but not PC1 or its files.
I will read through the links you gave me to see if I can fix the problem. We tried to use a system restore point to revert back to before sp2 but it failed to work. We are starting to think its a problem with the install of XP on PC1 and should format the drive and re-install.
confus-ed
October 19th, 2004, 08:35 AM
So I think you want sp2 on as it adds IPv6 (one of the links refers) & I think that can maintain workgroup & computer names 'better' using tcp/ip, as net bios was originally designed for broadcast on small networks, not the internet. I dunno whether it leaves it behind or not if you remove sp2.
On PC2 I can ping PC 1 by IP and can access shared files from pc1.
But I cannot ping PC 1 by name.
This tells me it still can't resolve names right for some reason as it stands, I pressume it says it can't resolve the name not can't find it all?
Is there a difference or not if you run ipconfig on both pc1 & pc2 for their default gateway or dns servers? try ipconfig & ipconfig /all..
riddellcomp
October 19th, 2004, 08:48 AM
This tells me it still can't resolve names right for some reason as it stands, I pressume it says it can't resolve the name not can't find it all?
I cant remember exactly but think it just said.."Ping request could not find host anthony. Please check the name and try again." I will have a look tommorrow and see what it says.
So I think you want sp2 on as it adds IPv6 (one of the links refers) & I think that can maintain workgroup & computer names 'better' using tcp/ip, as net bios was originally designed for broadcast on small networks, not the internet. I dunno whether it leaves it behind or not if you remove sp2.
We did install tcp/ipv6 as per your suggestion but as it didnt fix the problem I removed sp2. But I checked the event manager and it still started as a service even though sp2 was removed. So it must stay installed.
Is there a difference or not if you run ipconfig on both pc1 & pc2 for their default gateway or dns servers? try ipconfig & ipconfig /all..http://forums.windrivers.com/images/clear.gif
I will do this tommorrow and see what I get.
Thanks heaps...
riddellcomp
October 19th, 2004, 10:09 AM
okay well he read his e-mail so here are the results quicker than we expected.
Physical Address. . . . . . . . . : C0-A8-00-02
Dhcp Enabled. . . . . . . . . . . : No
IP Address. . . . . . . . . . . . : fe80::5efe:192.168.0.2%2
Default Gateway . . . . . . . . . :
DNS Servers . . . . . . . . . . . : fec0:0:0:ffff::1%1
fec0:0:0:ffff::2%1
fec0:0:0:ffff::3%1
NetBIOS over Tcpip. . . . . . . . : Disabled (I noticed this is disabled. perhaps it was due to uninstall of sp2??)
When trying to ping pc1 from pc2 using the name "Ping anthony" we get the following error message.
"Ping request could not find Anthony.Please check the name and try again."
Still waiting for the same from pc2 and will send it through.
hudsonsmith
October 19th, 2004, 10:39 AM
What's this "Teredo Tunneling Pseudo-Interface"?
confus-ed
October 19th, 2004, 01:29 PM
What's this "Teredo Tunneling Pseudo-Interface"?
Oh they've changed it all with sp2, your guess is as good as mine :D - I've got a few extra services now since adding ipv6, (thats what its to do with, if you open entwork properties you'll see ipv6 as a client) - I've got 4 extra services too, peer name resolution, per networking, peer networking group authentication & peer networking identity manager.
riddellcomp
October 19th, 2004, 05:06 PM
Okay here is the info on PC2. (No sp2 on this one.)
Okay I have noticed that both computers have the extra dns server entry in there. I never put it in so unless the owner did Im not sure how it got there. The first two entrys match my own computer and we use the same isp.
So I will remove the third entry and enable netbios over tcp/ip or should I choose the default to "use netbios from the dhcp server????"
confus-ed
October 20th, 2004, 05:31 AM
Okay here is the info on PC2. (No sp2 on this one.)
..So I will remove the third entry and enable netbios over tcp/ip or should I choose the default to "use netbios from the dhcp server????"
So I think thats what is giving you your 'third' dns resolution point, some routers can do this & others can't, so try it NOT applied first (that way it should always go to the ISPs DNS ? & I'm still none the wiser just how sp2 affects all of this - note my comments on extra services {that was for xp pro, I have no copy of xp home, at home :D - I shall rectify that & hopefully these answers will be 'better'}, I only just noticed the differences having had a close look as you kept saying it wasn't working as expected, so forgive me if I'm vague, or start investigating my own 'tangents' !).
I also think we need all the clients on one level playing field sp wise because of ipv4 hadling vs ipv6 handling, please confirm on this ..
riddellcomp
October 20th, 2004, 08:36 AM
that was for xp pro, I have no copy of xp home, at home :D - I shall rectify that & hopefully these answers will be 'better'
You have lost me there. These pcs are all running XP pro.
I also think we need all the clients on one level playing field sp wise because of ipv4 hadling vs ipv6 handling, please confirm on this ..http://forums.windrivers.com/images/clear.gif
Okay we will have to remove IPV6 from PC 1.
hudsonsmith
October 20th, 2004, 11:53 AM
The third dns address is the ip of the router. It is probably set automatically - nothing to remove. Besides, if you can surf the net on all 3 pc's, then dns is not your problem.
If that Teredo Tunneling bit is installed as a protocol, I would try removing it. I've got XP SP2 and I don't see that.
riddellcomp
October 20th, 2004, 06:35 PM
Ed,
That turedo tunneling bit is part of IPV6. Which is not installed as part of sp2, (Which I read from the link you sent me.) You have to go to Add remove progs>Networking>Details and tick Peer to Peer. Then if you uninstall SP2 it will still be installed until you go back to add/remove progs and manually remove it that way.
I will remove it but we were having problems well before I did install it so I dont think it will make a diference, perhaps just get everything back on the same field.
Im still not sure if I should enable netbios over tcp/ip or use netbios from dhcp server?
confus-ed
October 21st, 2004, 06:03 AM
You have lost me there. These pcs are all running XP pro.
Oh ignore me, confus-ed with myself ! :rolleyes: - but I can tell you it does do this with home, as I've got someone with exactly the same symptoms( so this "PC 1 does not see any computers on the network including itself or any shared files. PC 2 can see itself on the network but not PC1 or its files.
" hence my confusion - apologies ! Mixed the two up ! - I wonder what I told him ? :D), he went up to sp2 & turned all the peer to peer stuff on, thus using the same ipv 'whatever' & that fixed that..
Okay we will have to remove IPV6 from PC 1.
So that should tie in with the very confus-ed reasoning above ! [shakes his head some more]
As for the netbios setting question, there's three options for wins, default, which is use netbios from your router as thats dhcp server here if available otherwise enable netbios over tcp/ip, or there's enable it anyway, or turn it off.
Try with it on (default).
..then dns is not your problem
If the quote below is still happening
On PC2 I can ping PC 1 by IP and can access shared files from pc1.
But I cannot ping PC 1 by name.
Then local resolution is the issue.
PC2 is the wireless one & that looks at the isps, then local, so it'll just not find it, it wants to look at local, then isps dns ?
riddellcomp
October 21st, 2004, 07:03 AM
If the quote below is still happening http://forums.windrivers.com/images/quotes/quot-top-left.gifQuote:http://forums.windrivers.com/images/quotes/quot-top-right.gifhttp://forums.windrivers.com/images/quotes/quot-top-right-10.gifOn PC2 I can ping PC 1 by IP and can access shared files from pc1.
But I cannot ping PC 1 by name.
It sort of is. We cant access any shared files from PC1 either the last time we tried but i think it was a problem elsewhere as we were able to at one stage.
Then local resolution is the issue.
PC2 is the wireless one & that looks at the isps, then local, so it'll just not find it, it wants to look at local, then isps dns ?
Yes thats what I thoughthttp://forums.windrivers.com/images/smilies/sad2.gifhttp://forums.windrivers.com/images/smilies/smile.gif.
But how do we do that??????
riddellcomp
October 21st, 2004, 07:16 AM
Im still reading your informative article on name resolution and have learnt quite a bit. One question though..With name resolution what determines what method is used? EG.
NetBIOS broadcasts HOSTS files LMHOSTS files Domain Name Server (DNS) Windows Internet Name Service (WINS) Dynamic DNSDoes the computer use all of these in order, only some of these or depends on the settings and if so where would this be set? I noticed on my own pc there is an option ticked under wins to enable lmhosts lookup. Just wondering why its ticked?
confus-ed
October 22nd, 2004, 06:04 AM
It sort of is. We cant access any shared files from PC1 either the last time we tried but i think it was a problem elsewhere as we were able to at one stage...But how ..
& who's supposed to be confus-ed ?.. me ! (not you ;))
Go back to this can't 'ping by name' but can 'ping IP address' business & note the differences between where the two cases can & can't resolve (Since you took IPv6 off one of the ones involved, perhaps its worth re-quoting the ipconfig, ipconfig/all ? Its worth comparing them again anyway!) - its something there methinks ... - To tie it to your next question all these levels of resolution are subject to hierachy in that netbios looks to LMhosts, then I attempted a further explanation of that , realised I'm leaving you confus-ed by introducing loads of concepts instead of just answering :rolleyes: .. :D & say instead - read page 3 of the name resolution link I sent you there's a bit starting "Name Resolution at a Glance..."
I noticed on my own pc there is an option ticked under wins to enable lmhosts lookup. Just wondering why its ticked?
If you understand the link I think you'll know why :D (When netbios has failed to resolve by broadcast it looks to lmhosts as the next place to resolve, lmhosts are a way of having a master host list for a network, so all machines should check all other machines for different lists {enable mhosts lookup} & that might include machines beyond the broadcast scope {not on the same physical layer}..)
riddellcomp
October 22nd, 2004, 10:20 AM
Ed,
I will read the entire article before I ask stupid questions but I think Im understanding it a litle more now.
I will have to put this network troubleshooting on hold as he is going to Queensland for a holiday tommorow and wont be back for a week. Its not going to beat me though and I am determined to fix the problem when he gets back. Thanks again for the help.
confus-ed
October 22nd, 2004, 10:50 AM
Conceptually I think its tricky to fathom whats going on as there's no 'one place' to do everything for netbios, & that might muck things up, as its very easy therefore to have something different somewhere & this is what using domains is all about ! One central point of control & administration not just per machine, but for all objects, with a peer to peer environment you don't have that & thats what IPv6 & these extra networking components are meant to help with - distributing info about shares correctly - :D didn't here !, it just muddled matters & me ! ;)
We'll have another go then when he gets back ?, though I think you may be able to fix it now ?, my guess is if you'd been hands on with this you'd have fixed it anyway by just experimenting ;)..
riddellcomp
October 22nd, 2004, 07:38 PM
Okay what about if we were to set up a server/client network instead with PC 1 as the server and PC 2 and PC 3 as the clients? Can this be done easily enough and is it suited to this type of home network or more so for larger type networks??
confus-ed
October 23rd, 2004, 04:19 AM
For most home networks when they say sharing to me, I try & get them fixed up with an xp pro client that way you can turn off simple file sharing on that & use it to hold shared files & make any on the home clients read only (many might think this a touch 'over zealous' ;)) but read that labmice link (I'll repeat it ;) - xp secuity checklist (http://labmice.techtarget.com/articles/winxpsecuritychecklist.htm) - & its exactly what they say too :D !) -which is pretty much your 'server' suggestion .. :thumbs:
'Billy' generally is wanting to steer you towards a domain (so a 'real' server as it has central control ), but for 3 machines ? , you are having a laugh ! :devil:
You could of course just fix this how its setup now, (taking note of the earlier advice about s/w firewalls & already being behind a 'device' {your router} ;))
btw I kept finding myself using quotes to match 'billy speak' to realworld stuff - a 'server' is really a unit that distributes info or services to other units, billy uses it a bit different & usues it to include central control too, so his 'servers' have to have control of what they give out, in a peer to peer environment you just share & folks get stuff ..
riddellcomp
October 23rd, 2004, 06:15 AM
You could of course just fix this how its setup now, (taking note of the earlier advice about s/w firewalls & already being behind a 'device' {your router} ;))
Ed,
Im often left wondering if you know what to do to fix this but am trying to make me find the answer myself. A bit like my high school teacher used to do.http://forums.windrivers.com/images/smilies/smile.gif You perhaps even remind me of Yoda...http://forums.windrivers.com/images/smilies/tongue.gifhttp://forums.windrivers.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif
I took note of the earlier advice about firewalls and removed Nortons completely. Was there something else I missed though?
confus-ed
October 23rd, 2004, 06:58 AM
I think the 'why' of why this isn't going correctly is in some setting somewhere's but we keep adding & removing things & you are 'remote controlling' someone else, so its hard to say exactly 'change this' or 'that' etc, I have to wait for reconfirmation of something, then you ask a conceptual question & I give you too much info & leave you confus-ed ;) & the whole things been 'meandering about' (like you say, like some 'educational exercise') for quite a bit longer than perhaps it should, because of that ;)
When he comes back, you want to either consider an xp pro client & use that for sharing, or concentrate on getting all the clients exactly the same in terms of netbios scope..
Its just a settings issue somewhere, I foolishly though having an idea of the why's might help ;)
riddellcomp
October 23rd, 2004, 07:47 AM
Well cant you fly over and fix this then??? Its lovely here this time of year. A little humid perhaps as our wet season is just around the corner but its only 32C everyday and we have airconditioning.http://forums.windrivers.com/images/smilies/smile.gifhttp://forums.windrivers.com/images/smilies/smile.gif
Seriously though I agree with you it is hard to do this remotely. When he comes back we will take it from the start and I will untick simple file sharing and set it up like my own network, which I might add worked flawlessly and I had no trouble setting it up.
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