Brand name computers, why buy them?

[ClickHere2Surf.com]

I just went to fix my uncle's Gateway PC, not only are all drivers proprietary making it impossible to change or upgrade the OS, it's a Pentium IV 3ghz with 512mb ram and it's at LEAST 10 times slower than my Athlon 1400 even after a format, not to mention it must have cost at least 3-4 times the price. To top it off, there's no reset button (you definately need one on a gateway, it was freezing constantly even after the format), and no HHD let (perhaps they decided it was noisy enough not to need one, it is incredibly noisy when there's HD access).

So why in the world do people buy brand name PCs? You're just paying 3 times more for 10 times less and 10 times more trouble. ALL my computers were total nightmares until I built one myself, and it didn't even freeze in 4 years (although that's also thanks to Windows XP which is incredibly stable comapred to 98).

My uncle said he got a brand name because there's less compatibility problems :confused: If anything they'res WAY MORE compatibility problems with brand name PCs because they make everything proprietary so you have to buy everything from them for 10 times the cost.

I guess people buy brand name PCs because they feel safer, but in fact they should feel less safe, because AFAIK all brand name computers are a pile of overpriced worthless unstable garbage that never work.

[WebHead]

Those proprietary systems might come with a P4, but it's usually only a 400MHz FSB which is why it's so slow. Plus it's usually just cheap memory. When people ask me to help them work on their proprietary computer, I usually just tell them to call the tech support for it. I mean, might as well take advantage of it as long as it's there.

[ClickHere2Surf.com]

Its not the bus thats the bottle neck, my bus is 266 and its still MILES faster than his P4, its the hard drive gateway uses which seems to be a 4200 or 5400 rpm. The hard drive is the most important part for system performance and they put the worst they can find, just like Compaq (perhaps all other manufacturers also but I have no experience with others) so it makes their brand new 3Ghz PC which they think will fly, run slow as molasses.

I remember when I got my Compaq PII 450 which I thought would fly, boy was I wrong, it was just as slow as my old 166, cause comcrap puts 4200 rpm drives even in their high end models, what a bunch of @$$holes. What's the point? Why make a PC with a fast CPU and then putthe worlds slowest hard drive you can find to make the powerfull CPU worthless? I know, because people are brainwashed into thinking fast CPU = fast computer, when it's really fast hard drive = fast computer. The proof is my 1.4ghz runs at least 10 times faster than his 3ghz because he has the worlds slowest hard drive and I have one of the fastest raid 0 setups.

I'm also convinced a 266mhz with a fast hard drive would EASILY beat his ridiculous 3ghz turtle.

[TripleRLtd]

So why in the world do people buy brand name PCs? You're just paying 3 times more for 10 times less and 10 times more trouble. ALL my computers were total nightmares until I built one myself, and it didn't even freeze in 4 years (although that's also thanks to Windows XP which is incredibly stable comapred to 98).

I hear ya clicker. But, I disagree with the "3 times more" statement. Geesh, that may have been the way a year ago, but now, with Dell selling pc's with a printer, xp, and a LCD for $500, I must strongly disagree.
Yes, they are not worth it. But, try telling that to a regular consumer. You know, the kind that I would have to charge at least $7/800 for the same darn pc, and I wouldn't make any money. So, pc sales have gone down the tube, (in fact, I don't even try, except for my business accounts of course), because they mass produce and buy. So, even my own supplier can't compete. Just do the math for yourself.
Anyway. Yeah, name brand/proprietary pcs suck. But, we do have to eventually fix them. http://forums.windrivers.com/images/smilies/wink.gif









4

[TripleRLtd]

Its not the bus thats the bottle neck, my bus is 266 and its still MILES faster than his P4, its the hard drive gateway uses which seems to be a 4200 or 5400 rpm. The hard drive is the most important part for system performance and they put the worst they can find, just like Compaq (perhaps all other manufacturers also but I have no experience with others) so it makes their brand new 3Ghx which they think will fly, run slow as molasses.

Wrong again.
I am sure if you check what drive is in that pc, it is NOT running at those speeds. In fact, it will be a drive from one of the majors running at least 7200.
Just check for yourself. In fact, tell us the model number, and we will tell you. But, the drive is important, and, if after a complete wipe it is still running that slowly, you should check the drive with the manufacturers diag tool. Use the "advanced" test rather than the quick one, just to be sure. If not that, it could be a couple other things, so let us know.

[ClickHere2Surf.com]

OK I just said 3 times more at random, but for example, I know my other uncle got a very expensive HP PC which I easily could have built a better one for half the price, that was last year by the way.

Still, even if they are cheaper, they're still a pile of worthless junk.

[Ferrit]

Unfortunately what you dont seem to understand is
To be competetive between themselves
Box stores have been buying the cheapest crappiest parts they can get their hands on
They keep driving the price down to beat each other out.
The poor customer sees a big number P-4 3.0,and mebbe a crappy free Lexmark printer and thinks wow this is a powerhouse deal.
Nothing could be further from the truth
Celeries,SIS CHipsets,OEM soundblasters Generic memory
They are nothing more then Bic lighters

[ClickHere2Surf.com]

Wrong again.
I am sure if you check what drive is in that pc, it is NOT running at those speeds. In fact, it will be a drive from one of the majors running at least 7200.
Just check for yourself. In fact, tell us the model number, and we will tell you. But, the drive is important, and, if after a complete wipe it is still running that slowly, you should check the drive with the manufacturers diag tool. Use the "advanced" test rather than the quick one, just to be sure. If not that, it could be a couple other things, so let us know.
OK maybe it is a 7200 rpm, but if it is, it's a VERY slow one compared to the 7200rpm maxtors Ive used.

I alsohave a SATA RAID 0 with 16 MB buffer which will by very far beat even a 10k drive, but still, his PC didnt seem to have a 7200 rpm, and if it was, it was slow and noisy compared to Maxtors.

And I hope you arent saying Im wrong about the hard drive being the msot important part for overall performance, because over experience, I've upgraded a lot of stuff, and I never notice any difference at all after a cpu or ram upgrade, but after a hard drive upgrade, the performance skyrockets. My dad's P450 is at least 10 times faster since I replaced the 5400 rpm garbage (which literally was the worlds slowest hard drive, I'm not just saying that, I've read reviews, it's the #1 slowest drive benchmarked) with a maxtor 7200 rpm.

[TripleRLtd]

Indeed. HDD tech has come a long way. What was in the pc? A Quantum Bigfoot or something?
A HDD is important. Reread what I posted, and do the tests.

[TripleRLtd]

Unfortunately what you dont seem to understand is
To be competetive between themselves
Box stores have been buying the cheapest crappiest parts they can get their hands on
They keep driving the price down to beat each other out.
The poor customer sees a big number 3.0 and mebbe a crappy free Lexmark printer and thinks wow this is a powerhouse deal.
Nothing could be further from the truth
They are nothing more then Bic lightersYou're right, nothing could be further from the truth. Somehow, and someday, perhaps we will eventually reach a sort of "critical mass", where the prices stop falling, and then mass market consumers can finally appreciate the difference between a Yugo and a Mercedes.

[Ferrit]

Makes my job selling a quality computer SOOOOOOOOOOOOO much easier
all it takes is them owning 1 emachine gateway or compaq
:flame:

[buksida]

Gotta agree with Click here re: the brand names, I've been having so many headaches with IBM's, Comcraps and Halfarsed Prickards that it makes you wonder how naive the consumer can be. I mean would you buy a car just for its engine size alone, regarless of brakes, suspension, steering, tyres, interior etc etc.

More often than not as said above they sell on CPU alone and use inferior mainboards with the whole world and then some "onboard" leave little room for upgrades (even then only using their bits), underspeed RAM and HDD, and non standard screws ... I mean why? Does anyone have a good explanation as to why Compaq use non standard screws? I'd love to know!

And as for the cases ...... :flame:

[TripleRLtd]

>I mean would you buy a car just for its engine size alone, regarless of brakes, suspension, steering, tyres, interior etc etc.


>More often than not as said above they sell on CPU alone and use inferior mainboards with the whole world and then some "onboard" leave little room for upgrades (even then only using their bits), underspeed RAM and HDD, and non standard screws ... I mean why? Does anyone have a good explanation as to why Compaq use non standard screws? I'd love to know!

And as for the cases ...... :flame:
>That is the question!!

> http://forums.windrivers.com/images/smilies/lach.gif (http://forums.windrivers.com/misc.php?do=getsmilies#)http://forums.windrivers.com/images/smilies/lach.gif (http://forums.windrivers.com/misc.php?do=getsmilies#)http://forums.windrivers.com/images/smilies/lach.gif (http://forums.windrivers.com/misc.php?do=getsmilies#)
Yeah! http://forums.windrivers.com/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

[TechZ]

Brand name PC's arent that bad, especially for new users. And as far as laptops go, Im defnately going to buy brand names. And with desktops, at least youre evenly covered and support is there, take the Middle East for eg. its horrible if u buy an assembled machine here. No Support, and they know nothing.

[TripleRLtd]

Laptops are a different story.
Is everything that way over there Z?

[TechZ]

Mostly, its as easy as,

Son: I have a pc, its giving me probs
Dad: Go to the shop pay BD5 and they will do a full resinstall with all the apps u want.

Piracy, its a way of life. Support stinks from local vendors, part are cheap (quality not price)

I help my pals out and build my own pc's.

[Gabriel]

I have to disagree to some extent.
I have many Dell Stations, the computer are reliable + I get 3 years of on site Warranty - Parts and Labour included (which saves me tons of headache when it comes to Hardware breakdown).
Do I prefer to pay a bit more - 20-35%
and have slower computer - the guys/gals in the office wouldn't know the difference with the application suite they are using.
And have a piece of mind for 3 years.


Thank you,
Gabriel

[Ferrit]

Gotta agree with Click here re: the brand names, I've been having so many headaches with IBM's, Comcraps and Halfarsed Prickards that it makes you wonder how naive the consumer can be. I mean would you buy a car just for its engine size alone, regarless of brakes, suspension, steering, tyres, interior etc etc.

More often than not as said above they sell on CPU alone and use inferior mainboards with the whole world and then some "onboard" leave little room for upgrades (even then only using their bits), underspeed RAM and HDD, and non standard screws ... I mean why? Does anyone have a good explanation as to why Compaq use non standard screws? I'd love to know!

And as for the cases ...... :flame:

Right yer joking? No I see your not
Dont you see the game.
1: I build a pc.
2: It can only be fixed using my parts
3: I charge astronomical prices for those parts.
4: I laugh and deposit all yer cash knowing full well you will be back

Man what a sweet game
Oh and dont worry I have no concious
Right Merry Xmas too

:flame: :flame:

[buksida]

I think the point was .... great for the huge corporations that are doing this, not so great for the likes of us who have to fix the crap and the consumers that are suffering as a result. How often have you lost business buy having to tell the customer that the machine needs to go back to the supplier, usually 300 miles away, because none of your standard parts will work in it?

Unless of course you are in fact the CEO of Comcrap then I must eat humble pie and say "well done old chap" ;)

[HipHoper]

Those proprietary systems might come with a P4, but it's usually only a 400MHz FSB which is why it's so slow. Plus it's usually just cheap memory. When people ask me to help them work on their proprietary computer, I usually just tell them to call the tech support for it. I mean, might as well take advantage of it as long as it's there.
As long as it's there.......HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHA

[InTheWayBoy]

I guess I'll throw my thoughts in on this...Big Box computers are great...they generally are feature rich, and usually use good parts. All you who are saying they don't, you may not have looked at the right. HP for instance uses ASUS to make it's motherboards and other parts. You have to remember one thing though:

THE ONLY COMPUTERS WE ARE SEEING ARE THE ONES THAT NEED FIXING!!!

That's not the only computers they have ever made...for every one broken computer there are probably twenty good ones. Trust me, I've worked at CompUSA as tech, and now I run my own repair company, so I've seen both sides.

Now I won't stand up for them and their screwy little things like non standard screws (Compaq), different power supply pin-outs (Dell), and over-all crappy case design (HP)...but you can't expect them to be too nice. They are greedy S.O.B.'s in the end. But don't let that make you think their products are bad.

In fact, I dare say that overall they have a higher reliability rate than most white box companies. I don't even try and build them anymore, because after it's all said and done the little money that I can make off the parts is quickly pissed away after the extensive support calls to morons. Don't forget, another aspect of these 'broken' PC's is the users are idiots most of the time. I used to refurb machines at CompUSA, and about 60% of the time there was no hardware problem, just software or a short in the ID10T interface ;)

Yeah tech support is all in India...yeah, they don't care about a customers data...but you have to think they are working in the same economy as ours. Can you:

1. Offer a system with little to no markup on parts (They generally make only 3% if I recall correctly)
2. Offer at least a one year parts and labor, and offer a three year upgrade for only $100-$200
3. Offer 24/7 Phone Tech Support
4. Ship and recieve units
5. Repair parts

And still make a profit? I know by my rates, that's imposiible, so I don't even try. Our service calls are $89 flat, which is a great deal. But if a customer calls us out more than once over a year, which is too easy to happen, then I'm now loosing money, as I only made roughly $100 on the markup of the parts.

If you're gonna do it like a business, and I mean really do it, not some half-*** on the side thing, then you'll start to see the apparent problems with the system. I feel that they are doing they best that they can given the situation, and as such I am taking advantage of it. Many people don't like calling India, so even if it's under warranty they still call me. Works out in the end...better even, as then I don't have to worry about parts!

And the last thing they have is style and design. True, we can get some cool cases, but then your drives don't match. And we don't get to design cool gadgets like the media-readers and hard drive enclosures and such. Hell, Sony always manages to impress me, if not only for the balls to try new things.

[CeeBee]

HP for instance uses ASUS to make it's motherboards and other parts.
..And a standard mobo won't fit the case when the crappy ASUS fails (maybe due to the under-rated 150W PSU?), and a replacement can be ordered from HP for "only" $150 or more + shipping, driving the cost of the repair close to the price of a new PC...
The fact is that you cannot achieve these prices ($400 for a Gateway P.O.S. with monitor) and still make some profit without sacrificing quality. But the average Joe has no idea about Gigapixels, how many Megahertz the HDD has and how many GB the CPU has...

[InTheWayBoy]

..And a standard mobo won't fit the case when the crappy ASUS fails (maybe due to the under-rated 150W PSU?), and a replacement can be ordered from HP for "only" $150 or more + shipping, driving the cost of the repair close to the price of a new PC...
The fact is that you cannot achieve these prices ($400 for a Gateway P.O.S. with monitor) and still make some profit without sacrificing quality. But the average Joe has no idea about Gigapixels, how many Megahertz the HDD has and how many GB the CPU has...

Exactly! In this current economy people want everything faster, cheaper, and quicker. Sadly most consumers have no idea about what really goes on in a computer, and really are too lazy to invest time to figure it out. When you buy a car, most people research the hell out of it. With computers, they mainly are uneducated. So they don't care if it has a 300W PSU, a standard ATX motherboard, or generic RAM. They care about what it can do, how much it costs, and who is gonna take care of it when it's broke. So the Big Box's are just giving the consumer what they want. Yes, they could take a stand and require all the computers they sell to use premium parts, but then the consumers would moan and groan to no end. It's a vicious cycle really...

Sure you and I can get a similar motherboard for $70, but that's just cost, you can't go by just that. This kinda hints to what I was talking about earlier...since they make so little off the initial purchase, and make very little if any off support, then their last recourse is to attempt to make money off replacement parts. You charge a markup on your parts right? Well so do they...but their operating costs dwarf all of out put together, so they feel they should charge more. It's simple really...the smaller the company, the lower the overhead, the less the markup. While it may seem gross and greedy, and it is inherently, it's the way they do business. Any industry has those failings...look at the automotive industry! You always pay more going to the dealer. But generally you get better support, a better warranty, installation, etc. That's all part of the markup. Do you think the people answering the phone, shipping the products, and cataloging the parts index all do that for free?

And I hope the Megahertz of your HDD doesn't exceed the GB of the CPU in your system, that could be ugly...

[RejectionMan]

I buy them becasue I know im getting the same equipment for each workstation rahter than a bunch of cobbled togetehr systems that are nearly the same. They deliver on time, they stand by their warranty, the provide service level agreements, they are problay going to stay in business, and are large enough to meet my volume needs.

why i dont use local retailers:

everytime i have dealt with a local dealer they have screwed me, limmited warratys (make me chase the manufacture), want me to wait for the RMA to arrive (will only do so after the defect part is at manufacturer), no SLA's, generaly cost more, and they want to sell me crap mother boards (unless I special order)

to much hassel, give me dell any day of the week and thrice on sunday.

[Ferrit]

I buy them becasue I know im getting the same equipment for each workstation rahter than a bunch of cobbled togetehr systems that are nearly the same. They deliver on time, they stand by their warranty, the provide service level agreements, they are problay going to stay in business, and are large enough to meet my volume needs.

why i dont use local retailers:

everytime i have dealt with a local dealer they have screwed me, limmited warratys (make me chase the manufacture), want me to wait for the RMA to arrive (will only do so after the defect part is at manufacturer), no SLA's, generaly cost more, and they want to sell me crap mother boards (unless I special order)

to much hassel, give me dell any day of the week and thrice on sunday.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA yer joking right?
Now you may have had a bad experience with your local computer shop I will grant ya that
but the rest is kinda funny really
You phoned the infamous Dell tech support since they moved it offshore?

[InTheWayBoy]

You phone a local computer service center after 9:00PM?

[TripleRLtd]

The way this thread has progressed is quite revealing. Big Box/Name Brand has alot to offer, undoubtably. Especially when you don't buy their "loss leaders" that you see advertised on tv.
Consumers do not understand the difference yet between a "Yugo" and a "Mercedes" as of yet (to repeat myself...), and that may be our fault. Of course you can get a good "Comcrap". And, of course, they also have pc's that run for $1500, not just $500. Do you all think there is not a difference between their high and and their low end? Come on. Also, how about between their Business Division and their Consumer Division? Who is YOUR best customer after all?
Yeah, they know what they are doing! After all, we are talking about the last of the great pc makers to survive and become godzillas.
Who thinks Gateway is next to fall?

[thorian]

Makes my job selling a quality computer SOOOOOOOOOOOOO much easier
all it takes is them owning 1 emachine gateway or compaq
:flame:

Dont forget that Emachines and gateway merged this year to make more crap boxen. I only reccommended a Dell to a aunt that I dint feel like making a 300 mile service call to fix it. I also told her she needed a 3 yr warrenty as they will use it.

[RejectionMan]

dell just opend a new call center in my city. They answer in less than 1 min. now. b4 i always got routed to texas and it took all of 15 min to get a real person.

I have dealt with over 6 local dealers and only one has not screwed me, the rest are all run by asian gangs im sure, uber low prices, only 7 day warranty on parts, and when you call the manufacturer they tell you its refurbished so your SOL.

sure the $550 models are probaly scary, but thats we we buy optiplex business machines, casue thats what we use them for.

gateway is done, dont know what they were thinking buying that titanic e-machines.. the sucktion from it sinking will surly pull them in to.

[bbtech6650]

Gotta agree with Click here re: the brand names, I've been having so many headaches with IBM's, Comcraps and Halfarsed Prickards that it makes you wonder how naive the consumer can be. I mean would you buy a car just for its engine size alone, regarless of brakes, suspension, steering, tyres, interior etc etc.

More often than not as said above they sell on CPU alone and use inferior mainboards with the whole world and then some "onboard" leave little room for upgrades (even then only using their bits), underspeed RAM and HDD, and non standard screws ... I mean why? Does anyone have a good explanation as to why Compaq use non standard screws? I'd love to know!

And as for the cases ...... :flame:

I agree with ya on the slowness, I had someone ask me to get them a computer, not build them one, but find a "name branded" one, cause they were more reliable.

So, I had them buy a refurb hp from tiger, and lo and behold, got a call that it took an insane amount of time 2 load.

So, I reloaded the OS (xp home) and trashed the useless hp added "bonus software" and the pc was not the same, it FLEW!!!

It should be an option what ppl want installed on their pc when comming from the factory, not just assume that every1 wants, or needs the kitchen sink in there!!!!!!


:flame: useless software!!!!

[jimmm33]

Since I sell "white boxes" I figured I throw in my 2 cents.

Don't give up on the custom built machines.

The machines I sell to my customers are better than any branded solution out there. I use Antec power supplies, Asus or Gigabyte mobos, Crucial or Kingston Ram. I burn them in at least 12 hours and otherwise test the heck out of them. I promote them as a high end business class machines with a fast response onsite warranty. I usually make between 120-150 bucks per machine. The trick to all that fancy stuff is that I only sold 24 machines since January. All my money comes from labor.

As for the ones that don't want to spend the money one one of my machines, I tell them I will help them in any way I can after the sale. When asked what brand I recommend, I tell them that can't in good conscience specify a name.

As for Dell, I think they are killing the business. I briefly did some Dell warranty repair work. They drive down the value of service work to the point that non skilled entry level jobs pay better. They keep driving prices down on hardware and I think quality is down too. You get a crappy restore disk, and support doesen't care about your data. They are doing the same thing to the printer market.

I was thinking about telling my sister to get a Dell so I wouldn't have to build and ship her a machine, but I could'nt bring my self to it. I still don't know what I'm going to recommend.

Support standard parts, so these things wont go away. What if all manufactures where huge companys? They would ditch standards and force junk on the market.

I dont even remember where I was going with this. I guess I dont like Dell.

[TripleRLtd]

As for Dell, I think they are killing the business. I briefly did some Dell warranty repair work. They drive down the value of service work to the point that non skilled entry level jobs pay better. They keep driving prices down on hardware and I think quality is down too. You get a crappy restore disk, and support doesen't care about your data. They are doing the same thing to the printer market.

Tell it like it is jimmm.http://forums.windrivers.com/images/smilies/thumbs.gif Nothing wrong with the truth!!
Right?

[TechZ]

Well jimmm33, you are a good guy for putting all that extra effort into each machine, but I bet the majority of other vendors like yourself dont do that, here in bahrain & pretty much everywhere else its just about the cheapest box.

[GHSTECH]

I just went to fix my uncle's Gateway PC, not only are all drivers proprietary making it impossible to change or upgrade the OS, it's a Pentium IV 3ghz with 512mb ram and it's at LEAST 10 times slower than my Athlon 1400 even after a format, not to mention it must have cost at least 3-4 times the price. To top it off, there's no reset button (you definately need one on a gateway, it was freezing constantly even after the format), and no HHD let (perhaps they decided it was noisy enough not to need one, it is incredibly noisy when there's HD access).

So why in the world do people buy brand name PCs? You're just paying 3 times more for 10 times less and 10 times more trouble. ALL my computers were total nightmares until I built one myself, and it didn't even freeze in 4 years (although that's also thanks to Windows XP which is incredibly stable comapred to 98).

My uncle said he got a brand name because there's less compatibility problems :confused: If anything they'res WAY MORE compatibility problems with brand name PCs because they make everything proprietary so you have to buy everything from them for 10 times the cost.

I guess people buy brand name PCs because they feel safer, but in fact they should feel less safe, because AFAIK all brand name computers are a pile of overpriced worthless unstable garbage that never work.

I have to disagree with you on the problem with Gateway. I am a network admin at a school system that has over 1500 GW systems. Gateway does not use/have propritary drivers/parts, Gateway is not a OEM they are a reseller, their destops use standard Intel brand motherboards, and their video is either the onboard intel, ati or nvidia. The same with sound, they use the onboard Intel approved analog devices chips, or soundblaster. Any driver can be updated from the part's manfacturer site. The one exception as with most brand name computers is the MB bios. And there are work arounds for that. GWs cases are either Intel, antec, or ensight. As for stability they usually use CL3 memory leaning in favor of stablity instead of 1 or 2 % speed difference by using memory with closer timings. Their harddrives do vary but at the moment the stadard drive brand is Western Digital, any system faster than a P4 2.4 likely has a 7200 rpm, the are no longer shipping 5400 rpm drives as of this past June.

For your situation first reset the bios defaults, then try updating with the latestest chipset inf update from intel.com also while there if the system has the intel onboard graphics grab the latest driver for it. GW usually only maintains the drivers released with the system on their site. If you go to support on GW's site the support page can run a diag on your system and tell you what hardware is installed then you can go to the OEM sites and find the correct downloads.

[thorian]

gateway Motherboard as shipped in the box under my desk

was a jabel after it fried it was replaced with a

MSI Athlon motherboard - 1.3-GHz [Part #2512742]
and now had a asus a7n8x the only thing i found as proprietary is the connection block for the front panel I had to remove the pins and place them in diffrent plugs to use the a7n as the gateway mo bo's use a specific harness.