Engineer - losing credibility?

[John Foster]

I recently read an article in Computer Weekly from the BCS (British Computer Society), which claims that the word engineer is being misused in job descriptions. The example they give states that road sweepers, office cleaners, etc are now often referred to as 'domestic engineers'. They (BCS) claim that this is leading to a loss of credibility for suitably qualified engineers, and they are asking for a change in legislation to stop the word from being misused.

I am listed on agency as a 'systems engineer' although I am not certified as such. I have 12 years experience in the field and, without sounding too cocky, believe that I could turn many certified engineers inside out.

I was just wandering whether a change in legislation would mean that I could not be referred to as an engineer. I agree to a large extent with the position the BCS as taken, but what is a suitably qualified engineer?

Comments please.

[MacGyver]

I am pretty certain that professional engineers' associations in Canada are trying to reserve the use of the term "engineer" and "engineering" through legislation so only people who have been qualified as a Professional Engineer (P.Eng) can use them. I would agree that they are totally overused by people who have absolutely no authority in engineering. My professional orginization, OACETT, has exclusive rights to the titles Certified Technician and Technologist.

You are not a sanitation engineer, you're a garbage collector. You drive a truck around, pick up garbage and put it into the truck. Where's the engineering in that?

[http://forums.windrivers.com/cgi-bin/forum1/noncgi]

I've seen the term "Network Engineer" or "System Engineer" overused the most in my field.

Anyone who knows what they are doing has tried to put these on their business cards/title sooner or later. I think it's primarily to sells ones' services to a corporate mentality that thinks you are required to pay someone at an increased rate as soon as you see the word "engineer".


Software Engineer is straightforward--programmer. Haven't seen that one misused a lot.

Just my $0.02

[Raijen]

I've seen the term "Systems engineer" and "Software Engineer" used as well. Although i preform a similar function to "System Engineers" I wouldn't go so far as to call myself one. To me an engineer implies either

A) Far more experience than I have
B) A degree from a university/College.

I fit neither category, and thus wouldn't go so far as to call myself an engineer.

My 2c

[John Foster]

Originally posted by WebJedi_Master:
I've seen the term "Network Engineer" or "System Engineer" overused the most in my field.

Yeah I know what you mean. I am not a certified systems engineer, yet agencies insist on listing me as such. They need to sell our services, agreed, but to give us a title that is incorrect is hardly professional. The excuse I am always given is that systems engineer fits my experience.

[Shard]

I totally agree that the term "engineer" is overly used. When I worked for AT&T/NCR a few years ago, my title was Customer Engineer. Customer Engineer? I designed customers? No, I repaired customer's equipment. Silly, just plain silly. Currently my title is Systems Technician, and that suits me just fine.

[smokewolf]

No offense. As far as paper certifications go, it's not the certs fault. It's really a combination of employers solely trusting the peice of paper, it's those boot camps that claim to get you that 100k a year job (then never even show you how to plug in a hard drive) and those individuals who believe a piece of paper gives them the knowledge of an actual professional.

As for people who will not get certified, I think it hurts the actual program for certifications (the more of those who actually know their stuff the less there are of those who do not). And I do not mean this as a flame (so please do not be insulted), but I also think it's odd that people will not even take the time to get certified. I mean no one would go to a doctor who says "well, I know more than those guys who got their degree, and that paper does not prove anything." Believe me, I have had dozens of people claim that they have technical skills, but when actually tested they do not. I even had guys who looked briliant and spoke as if they knew the material, but for every major problem they fixed, they created 10 minor ones that took longer to fix than the major one. And this actually showed though on testing, the answered all of the tough questions right, but missed the simple ones.

Certifications are there so that others can varify your claims of knowledge through 3rd party unbias agencies. I do understand everyones issues about the certs technically not doing that job and letting untrained have that peice of paper, but if I feel that people who do not even try to work with the system have no grounds for knocking it. Certifications are necessary in being able to seperate the real techs from the phonies.

As an employer, I will say that it is the cert that will catch my eye. There is something about a person who will not even bother getting certified, no matter the reason. If you know your stuff prove it. Now I am not blind to the fact of paper techs, everyone who comes through my door gets tested, but it is the certified ones who get through the door in the first place.

I hope that this comes across as I intended.

Recap: Certs are good. Paper Techs are bad. Techs without certs ok, but need to get with the program to help improve the certs and help lessen paper techs.

[BadBoyJoe]

I also agree that the "Engineer" title is being abused. But, what some people don't realize is that "True Engineers", the ones with a degree, are sometimes worse than a newbe with no degree. I've seen it too many times. My title is Workstation Engineer. My employer did not know what title to give me or what department I should be in because I do many things. I do a lot of Lan administration, tech support, programming, and system administration. So they decided to give me the Engineer title. Some people got mad about it and accused me that I do not deserve this title... "You don't have a degree, I do, so I'm better than you and you don't deserve it". The funny thing was when the same people that accused me, came running to me for help when they did not know how to use FDISK or map a network drive. I'm not trying to brag here, but I'm sure that you guys have seen this many times too.

I don't consider myself to be any less of an engineer than someone who has been to school to earn the title. I've earned it too, but I don't have the degree to show for it. I've worked much harder to earn the title than the people that went to school to get it. I had to learn everything on my own. If I did not love what I do, it would have been impossible. But anyone can go to school and get a degree and call themselves an Engineer. One good thing thought is that there are a lot of Engineers out there who actually do know what the heck they are doing (thank GOD for that).

Its true, the title is being abused a lot, but sometimes you have to step back and look at the big picture to see who actually deserves the title... The smart guy with no degree, or the technically challenged dude with the degree. Its for you to decide.

[artpego]

i am good. really really good. am i an engineer? not a chance. started out in college to becomae an electrical engineer but i drooped out of that race. i use the title "technology consultant" which covers a broad field in this businees without trying to sound to bold. leave engineer to engineers... be a garbage consultant, computer consultant or sex consultant (garbage men, techs, escorts) instead.
when you use the title engineer there are just way too many things that can get confused by potetial employers, current employers and clients. you will waste your time and most often the time of those who wish to use your services.

[smokewolf]

I am sorry, I forgot to relate that to the present discussion.

Anyways, I believe "engineer" is an appropiate title for those who can show their expertise.

Here we reserve the use of Engineer for a person until they pass through the necessary "hoops". Until then they are just technicians. But those "hoops" include numerous testing, but through internal standards and external 3rd party certs. We also demand active participation in Assoc. and Organizations designed to help the computer industry. I know other agency follow similiar guidelines, but there are so many "mom and pop", "johnny come lately" and such that will use whatever terms they can to get business.

To fight this, we spend alot of our time educating the populous about the industry and how it works. I never thought I would find so many people who never thought that pc techs should be certified just like car mechanics. Once we talk to them, they always insist on certified technicians. This also aids in education about the differences between normal techs and engineers. Our corporate customers know theres trouble when we call in our engineers vs. our techs.

I think that by changing or restricing words is not going to help much. But by reform of the tech industry into requiring a stricter certification program (just like the ones for every other technical field) would go alot further into assuring that those who hold the title tech or engineer truely are such.

[derekb]

I feel that for someone to be considered a engineer you must have completed a degree or program that qualifies you as one. I think that computer engineers are not actually engineers, lets face it we don't really engineer anything. I have a degree in Manufacturing Engineering and the classes that I took did not prepare me for anything remotely close to what I'm doing now. So even though my title has the word engineer in it I don't think of myself as one. I also think that the word engineer is being used as a more PC way to describe a less glamorous position.

[cylith]

FTI : For what it is worth a Software Engineer is not just a programer. In fact very little of the Software Engineer's job invloved programming. We are responsible for the design, implementation, and testing of programs. I'm not saying we don't program but it isn't our main responsibility.

jdc

[as06001]

Titles are just something to supplant someones ego....I would much rather have my title be "The guy who makes $150,000 a year" than be called an engineer.

[n8dawg]

i see it like this if your current job wants to call you such let it be. but, if you dont have any qulification or nothing to back up your "engineer" name dont start go looking for another job saying that you are and engeneer

[eenge99]

I've never considered myself an engineer, a specialist maybe. If one has been certified by a recognized authority and has had been OTJ for 3 or more years then maybe they could call themselves an engineer. I used to pump gas but never called myself a "petroleum transport technician".