Windrivers Today

[JeanneD]

Just my thoughts...
I wasn't visiting windrivers too much for awhile this year because I was busy, altho many times I lurk but don't login. I just have to say that I think some things have changed, some better but some worse... first, before "the gang" all jumps on me, let me say I have loved windrivers for quite awhile (longer than quite a few of you), I have used and recommended it many times, and I have highest respect for Scott and for Darren, who was here when I came, he has great knowledge and a couple of the newer mods have helped me and I thank them. The problem I see is that it has become very "clique-y" if thats a word and I am just about to call it quits here..now before you guys jump down my throat and tell me "if you don't like it leave" let me just point out a couple things.. I see complaints about the attitudes of some members (which some shouldn't be here, but that is up to the Mods) and how people are "sick of their complaints", but sometimes when someone says something not meant to be bad everyone wants to crucify them, case in point the topic about the misspelling of lewd... true, not many care, but I notice those things too, I just don't say, and while I spell pretty well I am a lousy typist, making up for it with typos. That guy that posted tho said he couldn't contact Darren any other way and even had a smilie, I think maybe he just thought since it was posted rules that maybe windrivers would like it corrected, he was probably just trying to help, but a the gang had to jump, wanted him banned and stuff, for what? If I had a website I would want things spelled correctly, otherwise it doesn't look professional, he wasn't criticizing Darren or Scott. Its getting where you say something (and I DON'T mean the truly derogatory ones )that doesn't agree with the majority or you aren't considered one of the elite, you are ridiculed. I believe in the forums as a place to give and get help and be friendly, but it is more like a private club now. You seem to be nice, intelligent, well-meaning people as far as I can tell and it's fun for those of you who are part of the "club", but for the majority who are not, it is not fun. That's fine if thats what you want, but it doesn't make others feel welcome, not like it used to be...it's like school, you have to "fit in". My one experience in the chat room was not too great either, for that reason too...Maybe more people outside the elite are starting to sound off a lot more with complaints because they are starting to feel that way, left out or ridiculed. This is not a personal slam against anyone here, it's just the way it seems here now to me.
So, I guess that's it....

[CobraTekMax]

Well, since I'm probably one of the "members with an attitude" that you're referring too, I'll go ahead and bite on this one.

First of all, I still stand by my statement that the thread about the spelling of "lewd" didn't need to be posted, at least not here in the Lounge. If it had to be posted anywhere, it should've been posted in Comments and Suggestions. I wanted to go back and edit my post to clarify that, but the thread had already been closed. And even if Darren did have PMs and e-mail blocked, then there are quite a few other moderators that this could've been pointed out to. I still don't think it needed to be posted in the forum with the most traffic, where pretty much anything goes.

Second, as for the "clique" thing, I don't see it. At least not to the extent you do. It stands to reason that, as the more you post on here, the better everyone gets to know you, and the more accepted you will be. That's just a fact of life. Some people fit in better than others, and some don't. I can honestly say there's only been one member here I've really had a problem with in my time here. Otherwise, I consider most everyone here to be decent people that I'd hang out with if I met them. Yes, there are a couple that I would call "friends", but as for forming a clique and bashing others just for the hell of it, I don't see it.

The problem is, some new members come in here with a chip on their shoulder, and they need an attitude adjustment. The mods and the regulars on here give them just that, and they either come to their senses and learn how to behave, or the mods deal with them. It's true, some of us jump the gun a little and hit a little too hard, but you have to understand that to a lot of us, Windrivers is our HOME on the web. When we get an outsider who we think is trying to cause trouble, it's second-nature to defend our home and our friends.

Jeanne, I'm sorry you feel this way, especially if I'm partly to blame. I've been coming to Windrivers since 98, and I've been lurking on the forums since then, only registering when I felt the need to late last year. I admit, the forums have changed a lot, even since August 2K, when I registered. Change is the only constant. I still feel that EVERYTHING BUT THE TECH LOUNGE is a great place to come if you need help, and it always will be. But if you have to do what is right for you.

[opiate]

Still.... Something’s need changed. I agree with both of you're points but, I'm getting the same feeling as the topic poster. The whole clique thing? Yes, there is one. Is it okay.................who knows? After reading the topic ATT. MR. WINDRIVERS I really am ashamed. I would hate for new members to stubble upon that one. What a mess! The Mod's should have closed that topic ASAP or even deleted it.

I do understand what the topic poster is saying and I'm not going to judge it.... The Mod's should be more professional or at least have a better way of handling things like this.

[ShadowKing]

OK I'll bite too.

I don't spend enough time on the web or here to have this be my life, and all I really want to do is help people with their computer troubles. I haven't really participated in much of the politics (and YES, they are there). I didn't even post to the word association thread, and I don't define my self worth be the number of stars by my name (now don't anyone get offended here, I've got more to say).

I do agree with you JeanneD in some ways. I do believe that the misspelling thing was taken completely wrong and too far, however there have been quite a few people (or one posing as...) who have been immaturely trying to lash out at Darren. So I can understand the defensiveness.

The community here is pretty tight, and many have made some close friends. Because they are so close, there are lots of inside jokes and "all your base are belong to us" stuff. (which I still don't get...) From an outsider's point of view, any communtiy of close friends seems "clique-y". However, this is not the case for everyone, nor is it the norm.

The community here is very open to new people and has lots of room for friends. The MODs are fair and the users are generally (with a few exceptions) friendly and open. As with any group, the problems happen when an immature member tries to upset others just to get attention. Especially in the case of Internet Commmunities where one's identity can be hidden, some feel that they can express things that would be inappropriate in a real-life situation.

I try to roll with the punches and understand that the ones who are being rude are not representative of the community as a whole. Whenever I have a problem in life I always try to solve it at the lowest possible level. If one of my co-workers is offending me, I will Always go to that person and deal with them first, if I then cannot resolve it, I move up the chain of command. That is a fundamental concept of conflict resolution that many of our less mature members lack.

As a whole this community is welcoming and open, you just have to avoid the few bad monkeys in every bunch. <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0">

[MacGyver]

Instead of packing your bags and leaving (man, where have we heard this before) why don't you stay and fight for a better place. The lusers don't run this site, and as long as I am around here, I will fight to make sure they don't. If you have a problem with somebody, send a PRIVATE message to the mods and don't bring it out into the forums. I put up with enough BS at work everyday, I shouldn't have to deal with that here, too!

[crussford]

I haven't been here all that long, but I have noticed a few things myself.
1. The people here are great.
2. It is the best tech support in the world.
3. The forums are run quie professionally, however nobody here is getting paid. They are here to help. The lounge is a place to let off steam and get to know one another. As far as being a gang, well any group of people that hangout, laugh and play together looks like a gang from the outside. Sometimes we get out of hand but those things will happen time to time. I wont ask you to stay or leave its your choice but when i came to the lounge i was welcomed and i enjoy it very much. It takes the edge off my day. If you are willing to give it a try you may enjoy it to if not then maybe the other forums fit your needs better. No insult or putdown just a thought i rarley go anywhere that i feel uncomfortable. Remember this is not a job. Best Luck. <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0">

[Mayet]

I'm happy <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0">
I try not to antagonise anyone and I try to help where i can.... Ask for help where I need it....and have fun communicating with like minded souls.......It's great
i'm in the chat every day and there is no problem really..nothings perfect but windrivers is THE NEXT BEST THING <IMG SRC="smilies/rolleyes.gif" border="0">

[Mr_Miyagi]

i was not going to add to this post but what the heck. i been around for a while now, i know you guys and gals can handle the "observations" with the usual calmness !!!!

one point JeanneD brought up was the cliqueness of the group. while i agree with most of ALL the posts here i thought it might be useful to present a couple of examples:

1) why do people (in the forums) get +v and others dont. DW explained the purpose of this when he gave me one the first time sometime back. In my opinion they serve very little purpose except to separate the haves from the have nots ; the people who are IN and the people who arent. Put it another way, if the chat went into "private" mode; i would just switch off!

I have been given a couple but i dont really get them all the time. others are given them automatically every time they're on the chat room. its not a problem for me personally but i can see its a problem for some because it creates the separation factor.

maybe chat mods should not give them out to anyone?

2) whats the difference between a chat mod and a forum mod?

3) i am not mentioning names here because to be fair he PM'ed an apology for being snappy and not PM'ing his concerns, and i am only mentioning it now as an example

I have suffered from the snappiness of a "person in power". the example is this:

we had a rather annoying person in the chat room and to get his attention i USED CAPITALS (i.e. shouted). I was immediately jumped on by several people but this "person in power" said he would "kick" me off if i did not stop....

it all got very heated, caused by the original annoying member who was kicked several times but kept returning.
i could have taken offence but because i "chill" (and had an apology) its water under the bridge.

4) up until recently the rules were not clearly defined. I was not sure of them until some mod said to me, thats against the rules!

5) abuse of power... while this place is voluntarily moderated and is, 99%, done very well, sometimes the power is used, IMHO, a little excessively. this could be because we're all from different parts of the world and we have differing views on this; my advice is to think first, consider the words you are about to say or action about to do; (if it was you, would you like it); then if you're entirely happy it would not be taken wrongly (allowing for cultural and geographical differences), say or do it.

sorry this has become an epic post! but, its all IMHO <IMG SRC="smilies/wink.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0">

[Platypus]

UGH, typed a long & thoughtful post here, hit some wrong keys & it's GONE! <IMG SRC="smilies/mad.gif" border="0">

Wanted to say I think there's something in what JeanneD (member 368 hey?) says, people do seem to get dumped on more than when I started on the forums.

I hope The Clown Guy understands circumstances (Darren getting heavy attacks, people standing up for him), and isn't put off. I hope JeanneD hangs in there.

WinDrivers is a good place, it's rare that anyone forgets what we're here for, to help.

That's it for Platypus sticking his duck-bill in. <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0">

[JeanneD]

mr myagi
<<1) why do people in the forums get +v and others dont. DW explained the purpose of this when he gave me one the first time sometime back. In my opinion they serve very little purpose except to separate the haves from the have nots ; the people who are IN and the people who arent. Put it another way, if the chat went into "private" mode; i would just switch off!

I have been given a couple but i dont really get them all the time. others are given them automatically every time they're on the chat room. its not a problem for me personally but i can see its a problem for some because it creates the separation factor.
>>


That is exactly the stuff I mean, when I tried it, there were (approx - I didn't count) like 12+\- mods or +V and 3 regular people, including me. Immediately you feel like you don't belong. And everyone freaked because I unintentionally changed my text color while checking things out, the end of the world as we know it.
Also, I appreciate the replies and the fact that no one blew a gasket so far.
FYI - the original post was not written because I personally had trouble with anyone, or even over a specific event..it's just that I often read thru many posts in a row, and I can see some trends. Someone said new members causing trouble should be straightened out, and I agree, but by like 10 people, and so rudely (at least to start with)? The forum mod (or regular member even) should start by letting them know CALMLY that there is a problem, THEN if it continues, further action. And sometimes that is what happens, but lately its like 10 people jump in, ruder and ruder, without even giving the new member a chance. Notice Cobra, you called the new member "an outsider". Like I said I have respect for all of you who hang out here, and even if it is your "home" don't you treat people with a little more tolerance and respect than sometimes shown here? (I sure hope so).I am not saying it's every one, and I really enjoyed some of the stuff like the "as the windrivers reloads" topic, very creative)Some of you always try to be professional, but...the other stuff is becoming predominate. So much respect you all have for Darren, why don't you follow his lead, he isn't so cutting and derogatory about every little slight or misdemeanor, he makes a statement of facts or rules. There is some bad stuff going on, but it seems the mods are dealing with it, I just think some members have gotten over-sensitive and over-defensive in general (how that is in this field I don't know, when dealing with users\customers is so tough and takes a lot of tongue-biting).
Also, maybe the guy with the "lewd" thing just didn't know where to post the comment so posted in the one where even one of you says "anything goes" ? I doubt it seriously damaged Darren's reputation because someone pointed out a misspelling in public. He doesn't seem that thin-skinned. And he could have just thanked him or he could have deleted or moved the post, but he didn't. And as far as contacting another mod by mail or something doesn't it say this: Please do not ask the Moderators for help via personal email or private message.
But again, that was just an example I used, not the real root of the problem as I see it.
I will probably still hang out here because I learn a lot, and I could have had a gazillion posts by now if I wanted, I just figure I get them as I get them... I just don't have that Mine is Bigger than Yours syndrome. It should be a secondary benefit not the main objective. However I do want to say again that there are some great techs here, and this is no reflection on their talents. Some of the higher-ranking members who moved up so quickly are a little too full of themselves tho. And as far as doing it for free (Moderating) that is true and honorable, but they do it because they like it and they know there are restrictions and requirements and dealing with the public involved. Some of the hardest jobs are the ones you don't get paid for, but you get satisfaction, and from most, appreciation.

[John Foster]

This is a tricky one. I think that Jeanne makes some very good points, but doesn't fully understand the 'who' most of us are talking about. I virtually never post in any other forum, mainly because - as many have stated before - the question has normally been answered, so there is simply no point in posting a reply. The Tech Lounge is different, it's where we gather to chat s**t. But some people overstep the mark, and turn topics into a slanging match.

The very nature of this forum makes it seem cliquey, and that is just a fact of life.

Sometimes people take it too seriously, which is a shame, life brings trouble enough without bringing it here.

[CobraTekMax]

Originally posted by Doctor Foster:
<STRONG>The very nature of this forum makes it seem cliquey, and that is just a fact of life.

Sometimes people take it too seriously, which is a shame, life brings trouble enough without bringing it here.</STRONG>

Very true, Doc. I agree 100%.

[JeanneD]

I do understand who and I do understand why, and I understand about making closer friendships with some than others.
I just don't think it needs to be so over-poweringly evident who's in and who's not, or
that some of the responses need to be quite so swift and angry and inappropriate. I am not new at this or a beginner. And I understand that the tech lounge is a place to blow-off steam, but to me that means against our jobs and problems, not against each other. As in all walks of life some people don't feel good unless the can put someone lower than themselves. The problem is if you react to a member that is out of line by being abusive and over-defensive and swearing and threatening and without even giving a chance for change or explanantion, how are you any better than they are. And it's the people in the clique that are taking it too seriously.

[em-clown]

Originally posted by JeanneD:
<STRONG>I do understand who and I do understand why, and I understand about making closer friendships with some than others.
I just don't think it needs to be so over-poweringly evident who's in and who's not, or
that some of the responses need to be quite so swift and angry and inappropriate. I am not new at this or a beginner. And I understand that the tech lounge is a place to blow-off steam, but to me that means against our jobs and problems, not against each other. As in all walks of life some people don't feel good unless the can put someone lower than themselves. The problem is if you react to a member that is out of line by being abusive and over-defensive and swearing and threatening and without even giving a chance for change or explanantion, how are you any better than they are. And it's the people in the clique that are taking it too seriously.</STRONG>

AMEN!

It was a little disappointing for me when I made a post about Darren's spelling and I got such a negative reaction; I did not intend it as an insult to Darren,I thought it was just something I'd point out.

This "clique" can be good or bad. When that Wanker guy came on here and made a post that was offensive to Darren, the "clique" really was a help, because everybody came to Darren's defense. If there was no clique or anything, people would have a bunch of loose opinions and it might have hurt Darren's reputation a little.

But it can be bad too...Jungle Monkey being the latest example. I can't seem to find that post I saw last night but the members of the "clique" just tore the poor guy apart, you hacked our servers, you are not welcome here anymore we are deleting all your posts when you need help, you are banned from the chat room, etc. If some people don't like someone they don't give them a chance when they want to make peace and instead ostracize (is that the right spelling?) the member. That's when the clique can be bad.

What I think we need is to make WinDrivers what it apparently used to be, a giant group of friends. Anyone who would like to "join" and not make fights is welcome, no matter what their track record is, can join. We can work the few kinks out of this board and have a big group of friends, no enemies.

I would personally welcome anyone who is on the black list here if they would like to join us and be our friend.

My 2 cents (American)

[John Foster]

Originally posted by em-clown:
<STRONG>


But it can be bad too...Jungle Monkey being the latest example. I can't seem to find that post I saw last night but the members of the "clique" just tore the poor guy apart, you hacked our servers, you are not welcome here anymore we are deleting all your posts when you need help, you are banned from the chat room, etc. If some people don't like someone they don't give them a chance when they want to make peace and instead ostracize (is that the right spelling?) the member. That's when the clique can be bad.

</STRONG>

How many chances does a person have to get before he/she is expelled from the forums? The mods gave him numerous opportunities to clean up his act, but he never learned. We should all back the mods at such times.