SBS Hardware

[Icharus]

I'm looking to build a new server to run Small Business Server 2000. I'm interested in a dual CPU system (Tyan K7X PRO and two Athlon 2400 MP's). We are a small distributor w/about 20 employees. I'm going to need to run SQL, Exchange and ISA along with our new inventory management systems, so I want something that will handle it with ease.

Does anyone have any experience or suggestions on this setup?

[silencio]

With 20 people you can probably throw it on a PIII 500 and it'll run fine. Just use RAID 1 for your boot drives, RAID 5 for your data drives (if you plan to have a lot of data to warrant not using your boot drives), a solid, tested, backup system, and a whole lot of RAM. I don't know what the max is on that MOBO but, considering the cost of RAM now, I'd max it out.

The key here to your machine is 20 people.

Also, this advise is my advice since you appear to want to build the box as opposed to buying one. IMO, the best way to do it is buy a box. If it was me I'd buy an HP Proliant ML series.

[Icharus]

I'm curious why you would choose to buy a server rather than build one. I have bought Dell servers before and have been generally happy with them. Just like everything else though, you generally can get a better system for less cash by building it yourself.

[silencio]

You can build a better machine but, does it suit your business needs to have a "fast" machine. I tossed this idea around for a few minutes the other day in fact and came up with these items. I break the list into enterprise vs bench tech thinking. I know the list isn't complete by any means.. feel free to add to it.

Enterprise thinking:
Identical hardware throughout the life cycle of the product to facilitate seemless image, driver and application rollouts.
Hardware you can replace in 5 minutes because of well designed cases, drive mounts, or integrated hardware.
Constantly evolving driver, application, bios, firmware updates.
Onsite warranty replacement and a cache of replacement hardware.
Built in enterprise management with SNMP, DMI, & WBEM for compatiblity with Openview, TNG, Insight Manager, and SMS.
Proven backup, restore, and complex server solutions (clusters, libraries, fiber channel storage, etc)
The cost of downtime and My time.

Bench thinking:
The fastest hardware at half the cost of OEM.
What else?

[Icharus]

The only two points that you made that are relevant in any situation are the “Onsite warranty replacement” and “The cost of downtime and My time”. The other points you make are valid for any well build machine, OEM or home-brew.

When I took over the administration of this office, the machines we had ranged from Pentium 200’s w/32MB to the top of the line Pentium 600 w/128MB (this was one year ago), and no two of them were alike. Talk about a management nightmare, but at least they were all running Windows 98. I have worked to replace or upgrade all of these machines to bring them to a relatively level playing field. I have standardized on Windows XP and AMD Athlon XP’s wherever possible. We’ve got software/hardware compatibility issues that I’ve had to work out to come to this level of standardization. Some of the machines I’ve had to replace from the ground up, but everything works very well with the software systems that we use and are scalable to the systems that we will be using. Sure, I could have bought all new computers from Dell or whoever, but would that have been cost effective, or would the systems be better supported or more compatible? I don’t think so. I know intimately the configurations of each of the machines on my network (because I built them). Isn’t that one of the jobs of the good administrator?

Why not drop the name-calling and instead think of this problem in terms of Enterprise thinking verses Small Business thinking. Your point (and I totally agree with you) was that the key is “20 users”, a small business, not a “bench-tech” business (whatever that’s supposed to mean). If we look at it in these terms, then it becomes apparent that most of the Enterprise thinking points are of little value to the small business thinker. I am their 24-hour tech support and the machines I build are not junk (that’s one of the reasons I’ve asked this question on this forum). Why should the small business not have the fastest hardware at a better cost than an OEM? The added costs of the other items on your list are irrelevant in an office where at most there will be 3 servers running.

I don’t mean to sound bitter, but I genuinely had a question about the hardware requirements of running the full Small Business Server suite on a single server in a small network. I don’t have much experience with Exchange, SQL or ISA.

I did not want to get into a debate about the big “Enterprise” guy verses the little “Bench-Tech” guy.

Thanks for your time.

[silencio]

Originally posted by Icharus
The only two points that you made that are relevant in any situation are the “Onsite warranty replacement” and “The cost of downtime and My time”. The other points you make are valid for any well build machine, OEM or home-brew.

Can you clarify this? I"m really not sure what you mean exactly. Are you saying that only two of my points but all the rest are relevent for every situation? I'm having a logic breakdown here

When I took over the administration of this office, the machines we had ranged from Pentium 200’s w/32MB to the top of the line Pentium 600 w/128MB (this was one year ago), and no two of them were alike. Talk about a management nightmare, but at least they were all running Windows 98. I have worked to replace or upgrade all of these machines to bring them to a relatively level playing field. I have standardized on Windows XP and AMD Athlon XP’s wherever possible. We’ve got software/hardware compatibility issues that I’ve had to work out to come to this level of standardization. Some of the machines I’ve had to replace from the ground up, but everything works very well with the software systems that we use and are scalable to the systems that we will be using. Sure, I could have bought all new computers from Dell or whoever, but would that have been cost effective, or would the systems be better supported or more compatible? I don’t think so. I know intimately the configurations of each of the machines on my network (because I built them). Isn’t that one of the jobs of the good administrator?

Congratulations. But, if the previous administrator had bought a standard platform from an OEM you wouldn't have had the problem to fix. How many man hours did you spend bringing your boxes up to a semi-stantard platform? What did it cost? As the administrator you should be able to put a solid number on this.

Why not drop the name-calling and instead think of this problem in terms of Enterprise thinking verses Small Business thinking. Your point (and I totally agree with you) was that the key is “20 users”, a small business, not a “bench-tech” business (whatever that’s supposed to mean). If we look at it in these terms, then it becomes apparent that most of the Enterprise thinking points are of little value to the small business thinker. I am their 24-hour tech support and the machines I build are not junk (that’s one of the reasons I’ve asked this question on this forum). Why should the small business not have the fastest hardware at a better cost than an OEM? The added costs of the other items on your list are irrelevant in an office where at most there will be 3 servers running.

Don't get defensive, it's not name calling. I say bench-tech because that's the job title I had when I thought the way you do. You, me, and a lot of people here can build great machines cheaper than OEMs. When I was a bench tech I always wondered why in gods name we spent so much on deskpros. It's fuuny too because the answer is actually your next statement.

I don’t mean to sound bitter, but I genuinely had a question about the hardware requirements of running the full Small Business Server suite on a single server in a small network. I don’t have much experience with Exchange, SQL or ISA.

When the time comes and you start learning Exchange, SQL and ISA, you won't want to build boxes. There are more important things to learn and do.

I did not want to get into a debate about the big “Enterprise” guy verses the little “Bench-Tech” guy.

Thanks for your time.

You asked why I would buy a box and I told you. Please, don't get mad man. I'm trying to point out the benefits of looking beyond the hardware. Do you plan on having 200 users for the rest of your life? Do you want more responsibilty, money, and hardware/software to lay your hands on and learn from in your next job? Then grow with it. Think big. Look toward your next technology refresh as an advantage to minimize hands on time with your users desktop hardware. In three years you won't care if your boxes were the fastest or the cheapest. You'll only care that your users and your boss never bug you. You'll smile when you tell your boss that you fixed the server on Sunday at 3am, from your house, because it called your pager, you fixed it, you wound up with zero production downtime, and you're taking the rest of the day off.

[Icharus]

You know silencio,

I would like to take the day off when my work is finished and I’ve done something really slick that everyone could appreciate. That would be a really cool job to work at.

You are definitely right though, those first few lines I wrote sounded MUCH better in my head than they did in print. What I meant to say was that OEM systems and WELL-BUILT home-brew systems will share all of your Enterprise points, except for the “Onsite warranty replacement” (in general) and “The cost of downtime and MY time” where the OEM system comes out ahead. The home-brew systems can have a cost/performance advantage.

The problem with our discussion is that I really do agree with you on almost all of these points. It’s the economies of scale (Corporate Enterprise vs. Small Business) that I take issue with here. I’ve also not been able to get much of an answer to my original question from anyone on this forum. Are people not familiar with SBS, or don’t they like it?

At my current job, we are going thru a major upgrade to the systems, and I very much intend to use every bit of this project time to learn and get my hands dirty and into everything. At this point in my career though, some of that learning involves server hardware and systems for small businesses. I don’t anticipate staying at this small business for much beyond this project however because I intend to make the new systems stable and well documented and remotely accessible to the extent that my full time position here becomes redundant. I need this project however, to show completion on my resume, and I’m not yet ready to quit and throw my fate to the winds in this p***-poor job market.

If or when this job (or any other) requires my working with 300 servers (or even 30 servers), I would agree whole-heartedly with your advice to outsource the workstation and server hardware and be done with it. I have definitely built my share of boxes in the past as I’ve been a bench-tech too. When we’re talking about just 1 server though I think the issue is open to debate. Even if I were to purchase an OEM system, I’d still have questions about the most appropriate hardware to get because, as I’ve said, I’ve never run the complete BackOffice suite on a single server before.

I’m sorry if I’ve come across as sounding mad, I have been a bit. But it’s mostly because of the condescending attitude I’m getting, presumably because I work for a small company and therefore must not know anything. In my neck of the woods the tech jobs were never “plentiful”. We have a lot of military retirees here that will work for peanuts. Sometimes you just have to hold-out for awhile with what you’ve got and make the best of it till something better comes along. At least I’m not flipping burgers (no offense!).

[NooNoo]

Icharus, I think your interests would be best served if you started a new topic and rephrased your question slightly, perhaps stating the hardware you have already seen and add to that what disk configuration, ram and backup devices you have in mind. The management software may also be relevant in that does it run from sbs?

In the mean time I will lock this topic, while it is an interesting debate on the "enterprise mentality" you are quite right, it is not getting your question answered.