Cannot access "Windows Update" etc

[TripleRLtd]

YES!!!
Three cheers to archO.
Notes::::

perfectly valid fix - download ie 6 separately and the update separately and install them. It had the effect of repairing the problem. What was the problem is the more interesting question...I would bet on registry corruption and dll versions/corruption

Exactly: a confused system with varying dll's from different version of IE, etc.
Go into System Information/Tools/Version Conflict Manager I'll bet there are many additional older versions now installed: nothing that can't be fixed,
But now, the most important to you has been repaired: IE.
So, good for you Snoopy.

Even though he put the W98 disk back in, and tried to reinstall over top of his existing, that shouldn't have screwed things up to the point its at now. If older files are being copied to the PC, then a prompt comes up asking to replace the newer file with an older one. If done correctly...

Sunshine, 98 does not prompt you to replace newer with older during a reinstall.
That was win95.
If done CORRECTLY is the important thing here::
http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;[LN];250928
Nice to see a problem solved!!!

[arch0nmyc0n]

A buddy of mine at the time of my first message on this thread asked my why I would make myself look stupid on a forum when they don't know who it is behind the "problem"; and to just leave it the way it was. Other than the obvious "clearing" up my name in my own mind, I feel that taking the brunt of the attack would smack my "ego" around enough to make sure I check for that more often. Now I have a plan of attack for the next time it happens, and I just feel better about the whole thing having "come clean" as it were.

As for reinstalling overtop, in my experience it causes more problems than it's worth. I've seen sound cards not work after trying it, registry access errors, weird video card driver problems (all of which cannot be corrected by simply reinstalling the drivers), etc. I spent quite a bit of my time trying to fix the problem and gave up and reinstall fresh new windows. (I never charged anyone for my time I used to figure out stuff, while many techs around here insisted I do so. My customers pay for my knowledge, not my education. Of course, if I just slightly modify something I normally do, well then... heh) ANYWHO... now this activex and update problem comes into play and just re-enforces the fact it's probably just faster and easier to backup the customer's data files and format and reload. Less time, less cost, less aggrivation. But my boss does it every time there's a problem. Like you know if you delete device driver files in win98 and you get thosr text messages "systemini or registry refers to this" type thing? he installs overtop on those quite a bit. So no I'm not against overtop installs, it's just there's certain times and circumstances for such a thing to be successful... (and now one of them is not having IE6 and updates installed :P )

[TripleRLtd]

As for reinstalling overtop, in my experience it causes more problems than it's worth. I've seen sound cards not work after trying it, registry access errors, weird video card driver problems (all of which cannot be corrected by simply reinstalling the drivers), etc. ...now this activex and update problem comes into play and just re-enforces the fact it's probably just faster and easier to backup the customer's data files and format and reload. Less time, less cost, less aggrivation. But my boss does it every time there's a problem. Like you know if you delete device driver files in win98 and you get thosr text messages "systemini or registry refers to this" type thing? he installs overtop on those quite a bit. So no I'm not against overtop installs, it's just there's certain times and circumstances for such a thing to be successful... (and now one of them is not having IE6 and updates installed

1>I have not seen these problems with hardware device cuasing reg access errors, but I suppose it is possible, and why driver update don't fix your fictional problems is beyond me: perhaps other problems to begin with.
2>Faster and easier? Sure, in certain cases. It especially helps at times when it is a REALLY messed up system. But, what about reinstalling all the apps, all peripherals and configuring them (fax programs/remote access progys, etc) configuting ISP's, reapplying all updates, etc etc: QUITE time consuming; whereas a reinstall, done properly avoids all that.
3>Most error messages on startup refering to "system ini or registry refers to" errors can and should be taken care of before the reinstall process, as many of them are actually software not hardware, and are in the startup folder or Registry "run=" section.

[arch0nmyc0n]

1>I have not seen these problems with hardware device cuasing reg access errors, but I suppose it is possible, and why driver update don't fix your fictional problems is beyond me: perhaps other problems to begin with.
2>Faster and easier? Sure, in certain cases. It especially helps at times when it is a REALLY messed up system. But, what about reinstalling all the apps, all peripherals and configuring them (fax programs/remote access progys, etc) configuting ISP's, reapplying all updates, etc etc: QUITE time consuming; whereas a reinstall, done properly avoids all that.
3>Most error messages on startup refering to "system ini or registry refers to" errors can and should be taken care of before the reinstall process, as many of them are actually software not hardware, and are in the startup folder or Registry "run=" section.

1> I'm sure there was something else causing problems also, that's why I say overtop installs are for specific circumstances. Only when I feel the system is in a good state to accept a overtop install. Another problem I've noticed is that diamond video cards get detected twice on reinstall and cause the computer not to boot into normal mode. Easy enough to fix but another problem to worry about.

2>Firstly I talk to customers first and inform them about what I would like to do (format and install) and tell them that I can install all their programs for them if they like but I'd have to charge the time. 99% of the time they opt for me just backing up their files. And as for reinstalling, I don't know what you use but I've made an installer for most windows OS with the respective preinstallation kits that don't require many updates (already downloaded and installed while in the setup program) and I have a number of driver CDs with all relative drivers ready to be installed ready to go. I'm also dealing with average not particularly computer intelligent customers... (I'm, working in a small town 1/2 hour outside my town, so half of them are farmers and don't have time to learn how to use computers indepth) so they don't have any complicated programs they need me to set up (like remote access poop). And if they have like specialized software I install it for them considering the first half hour free because it's a program THEY NEED to make money (and half hour is usually what it takes, depending on whether or not I'm on hold with the retarded software company looking for a copyright bypass, which surprisingly, most have, unlike Mcaffee and their stupid online crap). All other programs they either pay me to install or they do it themselves, and 99% of them are happy with that after having explained all the options (including overtop installs). Plus they just love the fact their computers run much faster afterwards... not that they use the computer to it's full extent anyways...

3> that was my boss... he used to be a chicken farmer.... nuff said? but the ones I'm refering to do not load in the run section. I was refering to the .vxd errors and .386 errors etc... you know the DOS based text messages that stop windows loading until you press a key type poop... they are somewhere else... I just run a registry cleaner like Tune-up Util 2003 to clean up those and many other problems. Like you gotta love those people (like my boss) who just delete the folders and never uninstall... that tune-up program cleans all that poop up good...

[TripleRLtd]

Well that is all well and good that most of your farmer users don't "know" computers and are happy with format/reinstalls.
To be honest with you, after reading all your "issues" with reinstalling and how format/reinstall is so much easier, I have to quote what NooNoo said before:
"It is too bad that most of us don't have time to do 'lab work'"
....and ask you why you didn't do that with Snoopy's PC. Especially considering it is only seemingly used to access the Internet.
Lab work, I am guessing here, means actually figuring out the problem(s) and solving them.
NOT formating and reinstalling.
As I have said before: ANYONE can do that!!!!
One does not need a professional paid tech to do that.
Better yet, at least for future reference, is figuring out what the actual problem or problems were, correcting them, and giving the customer back a working and WHOLE pc.
Laziness, I feel, has taken away many potentially good techs.
Imaginie, if you will, a car is brought in to the local shop because it is running really poorly. (It is in need of a tune-up)
The mechanic, instead of localizing the problem (solving it) and fixing it, says "I think you need a new engine...your car will really run good now."
What did he/she learn?
What did he/she accomplish?
The actual process of troubleshjooting can and does help you with everything else in computers.
The answer is not a new pc or a format/reinstall.
That is ONLY for severe cases, and then you should really install to a new directory, therefore at least saving the data.
When you format and start fresh, what have you learned???
Anything at all?
Did you solve the problem?
Really?

[arch0nmyc0n]

I don't know what yer problem is buddy... but his computer came in with the problem it wouldn't load into windows... dumaru stopped windows from loaded the entire way somehow... I removed the virus and it booted just fine... did a few basic system tests... that was all I was expected to do... not test the entire damn system... considering that the dumaru isn't that deadly I figured everything was alright and could safely leave it at that...

You don't take yer car in for an oil change and expect them to change yer brakes, muffler or transmission do you? And cars don't run on software, well... nothing WE can mess around with... so it's a moot point...

and as for "anyone doing a reinstall" if anyone could do it they'd be doing it themselves wouldn't they? and think of it this way... the customer doesn't want to pay a lot for repairs so I have to keep the time to as quick as possible without sacrificing quality... while on the other hand I have a boss that looks at how many hours I've been working and how many billable hours I've logged... if I spent 2 or 3 extra hours on every machine looking for answers to everything and waiting for people to post answers on forums like this I'd run into a conflict rather quickly and like I said before, people are paying for my knowledge, NOT my education so I don't CHARGE for extra time I do take attempting things I don't do... and if I mess up I ADMIT TO IT and fix the problem for free...

So I don't know who pissed in your cornflakes this morning... you can act all high and mighty as much as you want... I have to consider costs to both customer and business in my dealings... and I admit I don't know what to do in some situations, that's why I come here... and people like Noonoo make it an enjoyable, helpful learning experince.... but people like you venting perfectionist dogma is just not plausible in something I like to call the "real world"... people make mistakes and I made one with his system (and admitted it) and he's rectified it and I plan to offer him some reduced costs next time he's in (like a free hour or maybe %20 off hardware or something, I have to discuss it with the bossman)...

And as for reinstalls in my opinion they cause more problems than they're worth... if you don't like that fine... yer entitled to your opinion but you don't need to attack my integrity to prove your point... it's exceedingly childish (of which I can be childish too I know) and if your all confident in your abilities as a technician, try coming up to Sarnia here, you'll learn quickly what I'm talking about... I do appologize if I somehow made you angry initially but lets just leave it at that and try to be more civilized in the future and avoid jumping to conclusions... and leave the insults to the children... Agreed?

[TripleRLtd]

I do appologize if I somehow made you angry initially but lets just leave it at that and try to be more civilized in the future and avoid jumping to conclusions... and leave the insults to the children... Agreed?

Agreed, but it seems I have pissed you off, not the other way around.
Feeling a little self conscious now, are we???
I was not insulting you, but the GENERAL state of the tech world as we know it.
In fact, I am impressed by your integrity.
But, sad to say, I guess you are one of those: format and forget it: the easy way out.
Whatever.
That is the bane of the tech world.
But, I will give you this: you have a boss who

that looks at how many hours I've been working and how many billable hours I've logged... if I spent 2 or 3 extra hours on every machine looking for answers to everything and waiting for people to post answers on forums like this I'd run into a conflict rather quickly and like I said before, people are paying for my knowledge, NOT my education so I don't CHARGE for extra time I do take attempting things I don't do... and if I mess up I ADMIT TO IT and fix the problem for free...

...that CAN be a problem. and in MY real world I am the boss, so if it takes a lot of time to fix it, I, as you, do not charge for my education.
Which is why I am so different around here: I charge by the job, not by the hour.
It is also why I am so popular.
But, as far as I am concerned, the education in itself is worth it to me for next time.
As far as visiting you: I am not a farmer so I will jave turn you down.
As far as piss in my Wheaties: that was funny.

[garthg]

I have to say I am very impressed - owning the problem and setting the record straight, a rare thing.

Most of the flack you took was based on assumptions, so many wannabee cowboy techs pass through here.

Snoopy8 found a perfectly valid fix - download ie 6 separately and the update separately and install them. It had the effect of repairing the problem. What was the problem is the more interesting question...I would bet on registry corruption and dll versions/corruption, but I am not about to toast a machine to find out. It is a shame that most of us don't have time to do "lab work".

One question I do have for you, why are you so anti installing over the top precisely?

I have seen so many people do that and they have other programs on the system that will cause problems if you reinstall over itself. Remeber some programs require special .dll files and when you reinstall it removes them. And also some dll files are build from updates and other installs. That is one of the ways to get a dll mismatch and cause problems. And remeber if you have any anti-virus software on the system you will need to remove it before reinstalling. If you dont some programs will not reinstall due to errors. And you wont be albe to remove the damaged install.

[garthg]

Agreed, but it seems I have pissed you off, not the other way around.
Feeling a little self conscious now, are we???
I was not insulting you, but the GENERAL state of the tech world as we know it.
In fact, I am impressed by your integrity.
But, sad to say, I guess you are one of those: format and forget it: the easy way out.
Whatever.
That is the bane of the tech world.
But, I will give you this: you have a boss who ...that CAN be a problem. and in MY real world I am the boss, so if it takes a lot of time to fix it, I, as you, do not charge for my education.
Which is why I am so different around here: I charge by the job, not by the hour.
It is also why I am so popular.
But, as far as I am concerned, the education in itself is worth it to me for next time.
As far as visiting you: I am not a farmer so I will jave turn you down.
As far as piss in my Wheaties: that was funny.[img]

http://forums.windrivers.com/cgi-bin...ies/thumbs.gif[/img]

Not all companies charge by the job. Infact most companies charge by the hour. In our area most good companies charge 65 to 105 per hour depending on onsight labor or network labor. If you spend more than 2 to 3 hours on a job and you cannot pass that amout over to the customer then in the long run it is not worth it. To the customer and to yours self. That is time that you could have spent making ends meat instead of spinning your wheels. You must be able to justifiy the job. and the time. And if you really look at it from the long run the system would run better being fix correctly in the first place other than patching it for a problem that will cause something else later to fail.

[arch0nmyc0n]

Fair enough. My mistake, I mistook your satirical idiom as an attack on myself. I was charged by the obvious assault by others in previous posts. And thank you for the compliment... I think :P

I do agree that the general state of techs in my area is not up to any point of "snuff". Don't think that I don't attempt to locate and fix unknown problems such as this ActiveX failure. I don't just "format and forget" as you so masterfully put it. I do try. That is why I'm on this site; to learn and to help people more efficiently. This specific case would have resulted in his system being in my shop for at LEAST a few hours (and it was almost the end of the day) so I told him about this website and that it could help solve his problem that I was not aware of in the first place. I had encountered the problem before and specifically told him that I did not know how to fix the problem and that if I were to recieve the computer back from him I would be asking the same question on this forum. He is an intelligent person and with your help I was confident his problem would be solved faster than I could fix it. I just wasn't expecting the bashing from everyone worldwide. I've been ridiculed by my present and former employers for spending too much time (free time I might add) on trying to figure out problems without formats. So this "bane" you speak of is reluctant on my side, but a widely used business practise from what I can tell (having never actually OWNED a business I wouldn't know). I agree the knowledge of the fix is worth it, but unfortunately it's not my call.

And yes, charging by the job would be really nice in most cases and I would prefer doing it that way. But unfortunately there isn't a store I know of in Ontario that does it that way specifically. There are those with base charges for certain jobs, but soon as the time goes over they charge by the hour.

And as for visiting me, I wasn't expecting you to because you'd have a heart attack if you saw the condition of most of the techs in this area. Some of them can even install a NIC properly.

And yes the piss in the cornflakes is always a good mixer.

I do have a question for you tho, lets say someone comes into your store and wants to upgrade from a 20 gig HD to a 40 gig (removing the 20 gig because they say there is bad sectors on it). Minus the hardware, what would you charge for such an endeavor?

PS. Self concious or not, I just don't like being attacked by people who don't know the entire story. It's stuff like that, that gets our species into a lot of trouble.

[arch0nmyc0n]

Again thanks garthg for the understanding and help defending my point and I agree with what you've said as a whole. Oh... and just so everyone knows... we charge $45 on AND off site... and that's the lowest you'll see in this area... nobody I've ever seen has gone lower than that... so it's not like I charged the guy $150 to remove his virus...

[TripleRLtd]

charging by the job would be really nice in most cases and I would prefer doing it that way. But unfortunately there isn't a store I know of in Ontario that does it that way specifically.

I am really different that way: charging by the job.
Noone else in my area, or any area I know of does it that way.
I used to charge by the hour, until computers could be bought for $500.
The price of parts and new pc's have come down soooo much that I feel charging $65/hr (which is what I used to charge) will only lose you business.
Mind you, this was a business decision by me, for my OWN business.
Also, I feel it is only right.
I used to have fights with my last employer, six years ago, over hours charged ( and I was the lead tech in his shop) because I would use time to learn WHY rather than just let it go and format.
It was then that I realized that I didn't want to work for someone else anymore.
Someone for whom the bottom line was dollars, and not customer satisfaction.
Sometimes we need to go out of our way to help, and, if you hadn't noticed by now, it is also why I help (at NO charge) on this forum, which takes up a considerable amount of time!!!!
But, I am different, and I know it, and I am proud of it.
I do it to help.
Not for self gratification (as some do), since NOONE knows here who I really am.
Anywho, glad this has all been sorted out.
And, I would hire you in a minute, simply because you said this:

I've been ridiculed by my present and former employers for spending too much time (free time I might add) on trying to figure out problems without formats.

[arch0nmyc0n]

Always good to know I got a job opening in Florida. ;P

[Sunshine]

I consider myself properly chided for my post earlier.
I was indeed generalizing, as I've been the person to fix many a computer inproperly "fixed" in the past. I extend my apologies to anyone I may have offended, or ticked off even in the slightest. It was not my intention, rather the opposite is true.

Let's all kiss and make up...k?

[garthg]

Fair enough. My mistake, I mistook your satirical idiom as an attack on myself. I was charged by the obvious assault by others in previous posts. And thank you for the compliment... I think :P

I do agree that the general state of techs in my area is not up to any point of "snuff". Don't think that I don't attempt to locate and fix unknown problems such as this ActiveX failure. I don't just "format and forget" as you so masterfully put it. I do try. That is why I'm on this site; to learn and to help people more efficiently. This specific case would have resulted in his system being in my shop for at LEAST a few hours (and it was almost the end of the day) so I told him about this website and that it could help solve his problem that I was not aware of in the first place. I had encountered the problem before and specifically told him that I did not know how to fix the problem and that if I were to recieve the computer back from him I would be asking the same question on this forum. He is an intelligent person and with your help I was confident his problem would be solved faster than I could fix it. I just wasn't expecting the bashing from everyone worldwide. I've been ridiculed by my present and former employers for spending too much time (free time I might add) on trying to figure out problems without formats. So this "bane" you speak of is reluctant on my side, but a widely used business practise from what I can tell (having never actually OWNED a business I wouldn't know). I agree the knowledge of the fix is worth it, but unfortunately it's not my call.

And yes, charging by the job would be really nice in most cases and I would prefer doing it that way. But unfortunately there isn't a store I know of in Ontario that does it that way specifically. There are those with base charges for certain jobs, but soon as the time goes over they charge by the hour.

And as for visiting me, I wasn't expecting you to because you'd have a heart attack if you saw the condition of most of the techs in this area. Some of them can even install a NIC properly.

And yes the piss in the cornflakes is always a good mixer.

I do have a question for you tho, lets say someone comes into your store and wants to upgrade from a 20 gig HD to a 40 gig (removing the 20 gig because they say there is bad sectors on it). Minus the hardware, what would you charge for such an endeavor?

PS. Self concious or not, I just don't like being attacked by people who don't know the entire story. It's stuff like that, that gets our species into a lot of trouble.

We would charge 1 hour unless it took more than that. Inhouse labor is $75 per hour. Most of the utils we use would work on transfering the system over. But if it has bad sectors on it that would cause a problem. It would also depend on what OS it is. We use Power Quest drive image and drive copy.