opinions please

I was catching up on some news and a thought occured to me. I consider myself somewhat educated. I also feel I have a fair grasp of history and American politics. However, I can not come up a reason as to why the U.S. is such a staunch supporter of Israel. It seems the U.S. does not even publicly, strongly disagree with Israel's actions where the situtation merits it. What exactly does Israel do for the U.S.? Why should the average joe care about what goes on there? Why are American politicians so hot to flaunt the cause of Israel? I don't mean to stir up a fight with these questions. I am simply looking for some enlightenment on this subject. thanks

There are a few reasons:

A large group of voters in the USA are of Jewish background and they consider the country to be their holy land. Also, they vote.

Second, it is nice to have an ally right next to the world’s most valuable resource - Oil. If the poop hits the fan it's nice to have at least 1 power in the region that does not hate us.

Politicians are not flaunting Israel - the president is. All presidents would love to go down in the history books as the person who brought peace to the Middle East. Also, it is our interest to keep the region stable to keep oil flowing and gas prices down. No oil or high oil prices means bad economy. So, yes we should all care, especially if you work or drive or breathe.

Finally, you ask why we should support them. I would ask why not? They are subjected to terrorist attacks on a continual basis, have been invaded a couple times by its neighbors and I for one feel they show massive restraint in the face of all of this violence against them. We do not strongly condemn them for everything they may do that is bad/wrong because whatever they do has been done to them 10 times over.

If you really want a decent opinion of what is going on the Middle East ask Gabriel – He lives there and his opinions seem fairly objective.

Thank you, ilovetheusers, first of all for an honest and intelligent reply! I don't quite see how they have anything but an adverse effect on our oil supply. We get criticised, by mideast nations, for being so devout to Israel. I agree with you on the point about the voter base. It also seems to come down to MONEY. Maybe thats why our politicians are so devoted. The people that contribute large amounts to national parties and PACS may by large be jewish. If that is true, I am more disappointed that attitudes towards other countries is not decided by whats best for the country but by what is best for the politicians pocket books. I am not idealistic enough to think this doesn't happen. I can however still be saddend that it does happen.

Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East. And they aren't trying to kill us. They are a good ally to have in that area.

Intelligence. They are our #1 source for information, and that's not likely to change anytime soon. Without our protection they would end up bowing to Saddam, without their intelligence we would be....hmmmm, more ignorant perhaps?

US support for Israel is a direct offshoot of the Cold War. Going back to WWII, Israel was granted statehood because they had England by the short-hairs. The Jewish expatriates in England and the US helped financed much of the Allied war effort with the reluctance promise that they could claim Palestine as their homeland after the war. England was decimated by the 3rd Riech. Churchill decided that Palestine was not worth defending since it did not contain any oil or other valuable resource. They allowed the UN to create and Israeli state. Immediately, the entire Arab world declared war on Israel and tried to drive them into the sea.

Israel kicked butt in the 1948 war and took over the West Bank. Israel took even more territory in the 1967 Six Day War when they took the Golan Heights and Sinai Peninsula. This threw the balance of power in the middle east in favor of Israel. During this time the Soviet Union had been actively courting alliances with many middle eastern nations (Iraq, Egypt, Libya, Syria, etc). They even funded the building of the massive Aswan Dam in Egypt despite strong objections by the US. Fearful that the Soviet Union might get a stronghold in the middle east, the US began dumping millions or dollars of military aid and equipment into Israel.

When Israel lost the Golan Heights and Sinai Peninsula in the 1973 Yom Kippur war, they looked extremely vulnerable for the first time --- a prime target for Soviet expansion. The US stepped in again and helped Israel by training their troops, sharing intelligence, etc. By the middle 70's radical pro-Muslim and pro-Arab groups began to show hatred for the US financial support by sponsoring terrorist acts like the 1972 Olympics in Munich and the taking of American hostages in Iran in 1979-80. It became clear that Arab resentment of Isreal had grown beyond control and the US was now locked into permanent ties with Israel. If they were to back out at that point, Israel would be crushed and the Soviets would have the upper hand in the middle east. The expansion of Communism into Southeast Asia following the Vietnam War put even more pressure on the US to maintain the balance of power in the middle east.

This trend continued during the US-Soviet arms race during the 1980's during that time, the US was secretly placing nuclear weapons and technology into the hands of the Israelis. Now in the area of international politics, when a country acquires nuclear capabilities, it is like becoming a "made guy" in the mafia. Once you have nukes, you are a real player. By that time the Soviet Union and Eastern Block were imploding and Arab countries were forced to look for new friends. Iran began getting missles from China. Iraq used US money and technology during the Iran-Iraq war to develop its nuclear and biological weapon programs. Continuing US support for Israel seemed to be the only logical way to controlling the politcal chaos in the middle east created by the collapse of the Soviet Union.

Desert Storm added fuel to the fire when Saddam began launching Soviet-made SCUDs at Israel. Iraq's economy and military were effectively destroyed and the largest military in the middle east was reduced to a whimper. Clinton attempted to introduce a little balance by allowing Israel and Arafat to come together for peace talks. Although these talks were generally ineffective, they demonstrated a slight shift in US policy toward Israel in that we were no longer the staunchly pro-Israel ally that we were 10 years before. Bush has basically continued with the Clinton approach.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by KINGofBLEH:
<strong>US support for Israel is a direct offshoot of the Cold War. Going back to WWII, Israel was granted statehood because they had England by the short-hairs. The Jewish expatriates in England and the US helped financed much of the Allied war effort with the reluctance promise that they could claim Palestine as their homeland after the war. England was decimated by the 3rd Riech. Churchill decided that Palestine was not worth defending since it did not contain any oil or other valuable resource. They allowed the UN to create and Israeli state. Immediately, the entire Arab world declared war on Israel and tried to drive them into the sea.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">I don’t think that Palestine had been a state for some time – and Israel actually fought a war against the British to get their land liberated (land that they were given and had bought). Apart from that this is an awesome recapping of Israel’s history. I forgot about all of the past with nuclear arms, the cold war and whatnot.

I also agree with geeksRus – the fact that this is the only democratic state in the Mid East is a big factor – we tend to support those around the world that have similar viewpoints, though they usually have to have something in our interest.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Sandman72
<strong>Thank you, ilovetheusers, first of all for an honest and intelligent reply! I don't quite see how they have anything but an adverse effect on our oil supply. We get criticised, by mideast nations, for being so devout to Israel. I agree with you on the point about the voter base. It also seems to come down to MONEY. Maybe thats why our politicians are so devoted. The people that contribute large amounts to national parties and PACS may by large be jewish. If that is true, I am more disappointed that attitudes towards other countries is not decided by whats best for the country but by what is best for the politicians pocket books. I am not idealistic enough to think this doesn't happen. I can however still be saddend that it does happen.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">I just listen to talk radio and avoid televised media in order to get an accurate portrayal of the matter.

We do get criticized by the rest of the folks in the Middle East for our support but it is because of an institutionalized racism against the Jewish people from the governments/religious leaders of those countries. All of this hatred against them is asinine but spouts from fanatical religion that is used by governments to push an anti Jewish agenda against the largest power base in the region.

Remember that politicians care about few things – money and votes being the biggest concerns. Giving to one group or another gets you votes. Don’t think for once that most of the things that politicians do are heart felt or from good intentions. This is the way all of the world works, always has been – humans suck (sorry to be so blunt).

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by imaeditedbysowulo:
<strong>Intelligence. They are our #1 source for information, and that's not likely to change anytime soon. Without our protection they would end up bowing to Saddam, without their intelligence we would be....hmmmm, more ignorant perhaps?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">I forgot about this. We don't have an effective way of gathering inteligence in the area and do need to rely on them (from what I understand - not that I know or anything). Since the region is somewhat unstable and provides most of the worlds oil and out economy is dependant upon a world economy, we need to keep close tabs upon those countries.

Hello All,
I was invited to this discussion by a friend of mine who I have frequent conversations with regarding this subject.

Basically what it boils down to is that "Americans" will never see the Middle East as I see it. My parents immigrated to America from Egypt in the late 60's and I was born here. I have traveled to the Middle East several times.

Why do they hate America? Well, when thay see bombs being dropped from Israeli aircraft with a stamp labeled U.S.A. on it, what do you expect????

When it comes to taking sides, the picture is clear as far as CNN (which is run by Jews) and the rest of the media (also run by Jews) are concerned, Israel is simply a victim to Middle Eastern violence. There was a comment by another participant in this forum stating that what the Israelis are doing has been done to them 10 times over. The reason for that statement is that the media will never show the Palestinian point of view unless it benefits the Israelis. OK, twice a month, a suicide bomber suits up and decides to take out 5, 10, 15 or 20 people and the pictures of the destroyed busses and coffee shops are aired across every media type for that day. When was the last time you saw pictures of the buildings (not busses) that were destroyed filled with hundreds (not 10's) of Palestinians who are poor to begin with. Tanks vs. Rocks....Guns vs. Sticks....Army vs. Civilians... C'mon guys!!!!! For every Israeli that dies, 10 Palestinians die. Not to mention the thousands that are now homeless and would probably rather be dead.

As far as why America supports Israel.......$$$$$$. That's it. The guy who mentioned votes could not be more right, the Jews have a system of sticking together, and doing things as one and they have perfected this system. Politicians realize this....once the decision is made to vote for one particular politician, you can count on the entire Jewish community to make that same vote.

Wars????? Israel has never fought alone...6 day war? OK?! Take the French air force, have them bomb all of the military targets in the proposed areas and then have the Isreali ground troops invade and act like they did something. Are we really that gullible to think that a bunch of ground troops just walked into 4 or 5 well equipped countries and just kicked *** . Whatever!

My views are not meant to offend anyone however, it is somewhat frustrating when you continue to hear totally biased opinions taken from the sh*t that the media is delivering. I wish all of you could take a trip to Palestine for a day to see the truth for yourselves. Isreal has violated every law ever created regarding war. Geneva Convention? Why is it not enforced in this case. Ambulances being turned away, citizens being denied medical attention, civilian occupied areas being blown to shreds. Yeah you can say "the suicide bombers are killing civilians also" but the actions of those people are not condoned nor encouraged by the government, they are members of an unorganized group doing their own thing.

Well, I have a lot more to say but I would like to keep your attention with hopes of intelligent, civilized replies. For the record, I am not Anti-America, I am not a flag-burner and I am not a suicide bomber, I love this country but my opinions in this matter are for very good reason and Fair is Fair.

My question on the topic would have to be towards the palestenians. Is it not true that they have never been a true nationality? Is it not true that while all the middle eastern countries are suppossedly backing them now, that they have been kicked out of every other surrounding middle eastern country, rather brutally as well? If the Isrealies are so bad, why have the Palestenians not accepted any of the peace accords handed to them?

Of course, I don't see why so many people are fighting over a desert anyway.

El Presidente, I am not sure where you retreived your information from. When you say they were kicked out of other countries, I am not following you. Do you think they (as Palestinians) packed their bags and traveled from country to country asking for residency? nope! And for the record, they ARE a recognized nationality throughout the world.

As far as peace plans, what do you know about details? Israel also declined several peace plans negotiated by Palestine. Each plan obviousely benefits the side creating it.

Your comment on fighting over desert says a lot, ill bet you are clueless as to why they are even fighting, I also wonder if you even know where Palestine is??????????

Actually please tell me where Palestine is/was exactly. Before the two world wars, the whole area was known as the Ottoman empire, in fact for the last several thousand years the whole area has been under control of one empire or another. Yes there have been clans and tribes and states, but always under control of a central form of government.

Yes, I do know they are fighting over more than a desert. It is smack dab in the middle of the birth place of three of the most prominent religions on earth. I do know that the Muslims are not to fond of the jews, and taking from your first post, you are not either.

I do know that the palestenians were kicked out of Syria and Jordan, even after they were given a chance to stay and live with those already over there, but instead chose to be a-holes.

I do recognize that this problem is similar in several ways to the problems in the Balkan nations. Being always run by an empire or another outside force. After WW1 and 2, nations were formed and imperialism was seen for what it had done. The nations were all thrown together, then suddenly these people had to decide how to live on their own rule with others. It was something they had never fully done. To this day we are still living with the repurcusions of the past.

I stated that peace accords were given to the Palestenians by Isreal. It was more than any one had ever offered. They turned it down and continue with suicide bombings. For that, I have no sympathy with or for them. Here in America we are suppossed to be at WAR WITH TERRORISM. Suicide bombings in buses or malls is terrorism, we should be at war with these people if we are to follow what Dubya said.

Excellent rundown by KINGofBLEH!

There is no question in my mind that the "traditional" media never shows all sides of an issue with an unbiased perspective. This also applies to the current trend of being less and less vocal about Isreal's very real and daily war on terrorism.

Having said that, it is my opinion that each side in this conflict doesn't have the full story either. It is impossible for them to be objective about this - no effense meant.

My own stance on this is simply that if Israel no longer has a democratic "superpower" ally, they're dead. Period. It may not be the goal of all muslims in the area, but there are enough extremists out there who want nothing less than the total destruction of the country of Israel and the annihilation of its people. I'm not convinced that the efforts of these "genocide-mongers" would be effectively thwarted by their neighbours. Just look at the excellent job Arafat is doing trying to control/stop the current wave of terrorist attacks upon Isreal.

Israel is vastly outnumbered as it is and is skating on the thin ice of having the US in its camp and some nukes to threaten their ennemies with.

There is a question of money/oil invloved, as there is one of protecting other democratic countries. I'm not debating that the oil aspect is very important here. I just don't want to see propaganda become the media norm, just because Israel is trying to defend its people.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by egypshn:
<strong>Why do they hate America? Well, when thay see bombs being dropped from Israeli aircraft with a stamp labeled U.S.A. on it, what do you expect????

When it comes to taking sides, the picture is clear as far as CNN (which is run by Jews) and the rest of the media (also run by Jews) are concerned, Israel is simply a victim to Middle Eastern violence. When was the last time you saw pictures of the buildings (not busses) that were destroyed filled with hundreds (not 10's) of Palestinians who are poor to begin with. Tanks vs. Rocks....Guns vs. Sticks....Army vs. Civilians... C'mon guys!!!!! For every Israeli that dies, 10 Palestinians die. Not to mention the thousands that are now homeless and would probably rather be dead.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">I have to agree with Egypshn on this matter. Unfortunately for us the only perspective we can normally get is from CNN, or other major media outlets. This perspective is heavily skewed towards the Israeli side of things.

I think it would be a severe eye-opener to look at the death tolls of Palestinians compared to Israelis. It may be surprising for many.

I find it hard to beleive an American, of all people, would find a way to criticize the Palestinians who are fighting for their own homeland. Isn't this similar to what happened to America when it fought for independance against Britain? The number of Palentinians that have been displaced from their homes is staggering. Wouldn't you do anything necessary to keep your people from being killed and being deported? That's the fundamental principle that the USA was built on, freedom.

I'm not saying if the situation were reversed, that the Palestinians, or the Israelis would be any better, but to blame one party is lidicrous. Both factions are to blame, and the entire backing of Israel is %100 political, and not a spec more.

In summary, I think we have to blame the media for the way the general public perceives this long conflict.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Kingof Bleh: My own stance on this is simply that if Israel no longer has a democratic "superpower" ally, they're dead. Period. It may not be the goal of all muslims in the area, but there are enough extremists out there who want nothing less than the total destruction of the country of Israel and the annihilation of its people. I'm not convinced that the efforts of these "genocide-mongers" would be effectively thwarted by their neighbours. Just look at the excellent job Arafat is doing trying to control/stop the current wave of terrorist attacks upon Isreal.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">C'mon, how do you expect Arafat to stop suicide bombers from bombing another country when Bush can't even stop U.S. citizens from bombing the U.S. You think if their was pressure from the government to stop bombings in the U.S., McVeigh wouldn't have done it. These suicide bombers are involved in a group completely seperated from the government and frankly don't give a sh*t what the government says or wants. Israel is using the suicide bombers as a scapegoat for destroying Palestine and are fully aware that Arafat has nothing to do with it.

Let's say that Israel would be dead if the U.S. didn't intervene. So what, technically Israel has nothing to do with the oil and as far as intelligence is concerned, their not doing a very good job if they can't even protect their own country from bombs. Now, if Kuwait or Saudi Arabia had a problem , then the U.S. would have something to worry about because THAT'S where the oil is. Instead of protecting them, we attack them. Bush is talking about taking over Saddam Hussein because he is voilating rules that stated the U.S. has the authority to inspect the country for weaponry, when Sharon violates laws of the Geneva Convention...it's ok because he's a Jew....When Hussein voilates the laws of NATO....we need to take him over.

The double standard is black and white, I am just so surprised more people don't see it.