A Question for Webby & the rest of you 'philosphers' ..

So I was doing my morning trawl for tech stuff & I actually found Webby asking an intelligent question ! :eek2: :devil: :thumbs2: (well two at once, well done Mr Webhead ! :D :thumbs: , one techo babble thingy that I shan't bother anyone with here, but one of a more philosophical nature, even if he did it by accident ! :p )

He said this whilst explaining something ..

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I did. His response was that "the computer should conform to my needs not my needs conform to the computer". Can you believe that?

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So yeah I can ... that's entirely the point from their perspective & you've gotta know this if you do frontline support - no wonder you get pooh from them webby ..

So putting it 'WD style' .. Which is the tool ? & which the 'user' ?

Discuss...

(he says sounding far too much like he's setting you all homework ! :D)

While our society has become dependent on machines, you are only the tool if you bent to meet the requirements of the machine instead of making the machine suit you needs. Tweakers and those of us who know how to get are way are not slaves to the grinding wheel of technology, but rather are the silent ones driving it.

A goodly amount of our users are tools.

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Originally Posted by meatwad

A goodly amount of our users are tools.

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lol https://forums.windrivers.com/images.../2006/04/1.gif Thats why there are Ibooks.

I would agree with meatwad but in all seriousness the computer should be a tool but with user's growing dependency on computers it can no longer be considered a tool but the users brain. Without the computer many people in the workplace become absolutely useless. When the network goes down people consider it a break. Computers have become the equivalent of electricity, and it cant even be limited to the computer. A computer is seen as useless if it doesn't have internet access, and not just any internet access, it must be broadband because dialup is seen as worse than having no internet.

I have seen people that can't find someone's phone number because their internet access has gone down. "Have you tried the phone book?" "The what?"

Years ago I had a customer that did investing for banks, this guy was in control of huge amounts of money. He had a TV in every room always tuned to a show doing stock analysists even if that menat having a second TV tuned to a regular entertainment show. He finally decides to buy a computer and get internet access and within a month he was so dependent on his computer's internet access that if he lost access he turned into the equivalent of a crack addict. "Get me back online, I'll do anything to get back online!!" It was ugly.

You don't have to look any further than "The Sims" to see how screwed up our society has gotten since it has accepted the computer into their home. It's a game where you control a little person on your screen as they, wake up, get cleaned up, go to work, come home, cook dinner, pay the bills, watch tv, think about buying a computer so your sim can play the sims, whoops forgot to go to the bathroom, look at job listings, get ready for bed, set the alarm clock, and go to sleep, rinse and repeat.

The computer is a tool that performs tasks, I use it to perform the tasks that I want. If it cannot perform the task then I must add software or hardware to enable it to do a task, or find another solution. People are tools cause they don't understand that simple concept and expect everything to work perfectly and for not only me, but the machine to read their mind.

Would you expect a hammer to conform to your needs, or do you conform your thinking to the ability of the hammer? It is an inanimate object designed for specific tasks, if you want it to perform another task, it is you that must decide how to do it, the device does not change.

the problem I see is that to effectively use a tool to solve problems, you have to first have an understanding of how the tool works....and you have to understand your problem as well the deeper your understanding of the tools and it's functions, the greater your ability to solve a problem with the tool.......

......yet the majority of people who use computers have little (being generous) to no (more likely) understanding of how this 'tool' really works...... (I'm speaking in a broad sense that includes hardware and software applications)

so they learn repetitive routines from people who do have some understanding of how the tool works. they do these repetitive task which require no thought or analysis....and when for some reason they repetitive task fails to produce the desired result they are completely and totally lost.

a classic example is here at work we have a small dept that still uses lotus 1-2-3 because years ago their productivity macros for the spreadsheets they use were written in lotus and the guy is long gone, and no one in their dept knows anything about excel to rewrite the simple macros so they can get away from the windows 3.1 version of 1-2-3

I'm rambling now, but anyway .......

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Originally Posted by thirdfey

You don't have to look any further than "The Sims" to see how screwed up our society has gotten since it has accepted the computer into their home. It's a game where you control a little person on your screen as they, wake up, get cleaned up, go to work, come home, cook dinner, pay the bills, watch tv, think about buying a computer so your sim can play the sims, whoops forgot to go to the bathroom, look at job listings, get ready for bed, set the alarm clock, and go to sleep, rinse and repeat.

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I don't think that's computer dependancy. I think its the little god complex in everybody.

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Originally Posted by Cleetus

The computer is a tool that performs tasks, I use it to perform the tasks that I want. If it cannot perform the task then I must add software or hardware to enable it to do a task, or find another solution. People are tools cause they don't understand that simple concept and expect everything to work perfectly and for not only me, but the machine to read their mind.

Would you expect a hammer to conform to your needs, or do you conform your thinking to the ability of the hammer? It is an inanimate object designed for specific tasks, if you want it to perform another task, it is you that must decide how to do it, the device does not change.

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OMG, I agree with Cleetus!!!

Part of the problem is the perception that computers can do anything. Few people enjoying having to learn something new to prevent them being fired for not doing their job. So in comes the trainer (if you are lucky) with a whole new bag of concepts to work from - concepts that the user has no previous experience in, no transferrable skills and no context within which to work.

Suddenly the user finds him/herself being treated like a child, told where to click and has no clue what the lesson means. This builds resentment since now user paranoia chip kicks in and tells him/herself that s/he must be stupid or worse.

During my teaching hours I was struggling to teach a bunch of 17 year olds about HCI and about user involvement in systems analysis. The produced questionnaires to ask users, they were incredibly technical. The students can't get a handle on what I was saying because their entire lives they have been interested in computers and how they work.

So I finally found an analogy and put up a document on the projection screen a complex set of instructions that I, my mother, my sister, my grandmother, in fact women for the last 100 hundred years could understand without batting an eyelid.

My students were lost. They had no clue what the instructions did, and why I was expecting them to understand it. They finally started saying, I don't understand. I started nicely saying - why not? This is simple, whats the problem?

Oh the document? It was a knitting pattern for a pair of gloves. :D

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Originally Posted by FatalException0E

I don't think that's computer dependancy. I think its the little god complex in everybody.

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Yes, but it shows just the absurdity of people. You are controlling a virtual version of a person just like themself when they should be going out and doing something, socializing with real people so they have a better chance of getting laid :thumbs:

NO worries NooNoo, I was actually 3 hours away from having a Philosophy minor, but I decided that History and Political Science would do enough on their own to keep me from landing a real job.

Actually Cleetus many employers value a philosophy degree because it maens you are much better equipped to play the politics game.

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Originally Posted by Cleetus

The computer is a tool that performs tasks, I use it to perform the tasks that I want. If it cannot perform the task then I must add software or hardware to enable it to do a task, or find another solution. People are tools cause they don't understand that simple concept and expect everything to work perfectly and for not only me, but the machine to read their mind.

Would you expect a hammer to conform to your needs, or do you conform your thinking to the ability of the hammer? It is an inanimate object designed for specific tasks, if you want it to perform another task, it is you that must decide how to do it, the device does not change.

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Hi Cleetus,

Im new here,

I agree with what you say, but I would ask that you give a thought to this ......bending the thought out a little - suppose someone came up to you today and said "hey you are not going to believe this, there are a number of cars - about 300 [ various models] - stuck in a siding over there - going nowhere" because suddenly for no reason, the cars just do not want to go anywhere. The owners have not changed anything - to their cars specification [ just put in some new plugs, or a new radio], to their knowledge they have not added anything [ just put in the normal gas and minded their own business] Problem is, their cars are going nowwhere.

Majority of people do not know how to strip a car down and fix it [me included] but they do know how to drive it [which is all they need].

It seems to have become accepted that computers are vollatile - why??

OK technology is always being pushed to the limits in the IT side - and rightly so, but would you buy a new automobile if you heard that they and other models were having the above problems - many of them stuck in sidings - for no reason - other than 'say' the new carberetta is not compatible with the existing engine - and you are told you may have to replace the engine.

Wouldn't you expect - in any other industry, that full compatabillity would have to be tested before release - and /or any none compatabillity be noted??.

I am going to stick my neck out here and suggest that the majority of average people become very frustrated when they buy a computer, mainly because they cannot believe how unstable and sensitive this equipment is - with all the hype in the press / movies etc. - They expect this to be like other high spec technology items - Plasma Tv's, High spec auto's etc. etc. - proven and stable - not to run for 6 / 12 months then decide out of the blue "for whatever reason" - to become angry and none responsive - won't start even.

regards
Colin

Anyway Cleetus, thats off my chest.

ColX -

your comparison is kinda "apples and oranges" but consider these car analogies in defense of the computer.

1- you probably took driver's education in class in school, along with your parents or whomever showing you how to drive. and you have to take a licensure test showing that you do know how to operate a motor vehicle.

is there a computer equivalent to this? Hell no any ID10T hops on a computer and expects it to "conform to his needs" instead of reading a basic for dummies book to get a general concept of what they are working with.

2- Speaking of manuals, ever read your Car's owners manual? I've thumbed thru mine, hell I went outta my way to get one for my car from ebay. I have a basic understanding of how it operates and where everything is in my engine etc.

does anyone do that with a computer? hell no. I read a basic for dummies book when I got my first computer, and that's what seperates people like me from the ID10Ts. That and rolling up my sleeves and working on the thing and not being afraid of it. And if I break it I figure out how to fix it.

3- speaking of fixing it you say...

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Majority of people do not know how to strip a car down and fix it [me included] but they do know how to drive it [which is all they need].

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It's not all they need

I know how to maintain my car by putting the right gas in it and getting the oil and filter changed, and not leaving the headlights on overnight etc. But does anyone take a couple minutes to read this kinda stuff about a computer? No

I do know to take my car to a mechanic when it breaks down, I get the oil and other fluids checked and changed by the quicklube place even though I could do that myself. And I have a basic understanding of how the thing works. And if it does not work I pay attention to what's going on and tell the mechanic the symptoms so he knows what to fix and assumes I know what he's going to fix and charge me.

examples, "it wouldn't start this morning, but the headlights still work, jump started it and it's OK, last time I changed the battery was 5 years ago"

"it stalls when I come to a stop, but when I stop in neutral it doesn't stall"

I don't just go there and say "Make it go Zoom, Zoom, again greasy Man"

4- There is allotta inherited knowledge concerning cars because the internal combustion engine is like a hundred years old and hasn't changed too much, the external combustion engine before it makes the basic technology even older. You don't enjoy this benefit with alotta computer related stuff, but for both there is the vast information available on the internet, but does anyone bother? No

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I work in a hospital, and the doctors there that I do respect happen to be the ones there who are a bit computer savy. Why does that matter to me? Because in them I see the thirst for knowledge, and the quest to tear something apart and work on it whether it be a human body or a computer.

Same with the mechanical maintenence people, we are the same breed of people who will tear something apart and work on it. The maintenece people can floor me in auto repair, and alotta them know their way around a computer.

And none of us complain that the Auto, the Human Body, or Computer should "Conform to My Needs". We just see another tool to master.

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I am going to stick my neck out here and suggest that the majority of average people become very frustrated when they buy a computer, mainly because they cannot believe how unstable and sensitive this equipment is - with all the hype in the press / movies etc. - They expect this to be like other high spec technology items - Plasma Tv's, High spec auto's etc. etc. - proven and stable - not to run for 6 / 12 months then decide out of the blue "for whatever reason" - to become angry and none responsive - won't start even.

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Hmm...

Taking things on a stage here - I don't generally blame the users. Computers in general ARE very stable and reliable, if used responsibly - just like automobiles. The problem being that all too often they are not used as the designers intended! People have the right to expect their new computer to be constructed and configured to be reliable under all operational conditions except (obviously) extreme misuse. (heavy porn / warez site surfing for example)

I more tend to blame the manufacturers & vendors. If Car makers & dealers treated their customers like computer makers & dealers all hell would break loose.

What major supplier or manufacturer installs anti-virus on new machines? I don't know too much about the rest of the world but over here it appears to be just one - Dell and that is only a 60 day trial copy of Norton!!! A regular customer of mine just this week purchased an HP media PC (for his kids) at the local branch of PC World. He's far more computer savvy than many people but when he asked the salesman about anti-virus he was told that with XP it's unnecessary and would only slow his machine down - I kid you not!!!

And three - four months on, connected to broadband the comp grinds to a halt, paralysed by viruses & spyware. The vendors response is usually either "run the recovery disc" (if one is supplied) or return it to us and we'll format & reinstall (the PC World way). Too bad about your data!! Oh and if we have to send out an engineer it will cost you £90 call out plus £75 an hour as software is not covered by your warranty.

I see several machines every week in just this scenario and it annoys - even though I do make money cleaning out the machine & supplying / installing AV.

Admittedly there are a few good suppliers who do supply machines with efficient anti-virus protection, but these tend to be either independents or low volume manufacturers.

Just today I spent a couple of hours cleaning up a Sony Viao laptop, just five months old, bought from a major chain - no AV and so badly infected you would not believe - stopped counting the trojans after the first 50!! Amazing it booted at all.

Here we have a mantra "Format & Reinstall is the first refuge of the incompetent". (though admittedly in extreme cases it is far quicker than laboriously cleaning everything out!!) That said we very rarely follow this course.

And there the isp's to consider as well. I'd like to meet whoever wrote the script that the BT helpline operators use. I've had numerous cases recently where the customer has got infected because they turned off or uninstalled their av because the helpline told them to!!! I checked this out for myself posing as one of my regulars and was asked by the op "have you got Norton installed?" No I repled, Macafee... "Uninstall it then because that's what is slowing down your connection" I was then told!!

The mind boggles :confused:

Rant over :)

John