Bush going overboard?

Well folks, it looks as if we may be facing another World War. I think Bush needs to cut down on his political actions against other countries until we finish the Taliban and al-Qaeda. He is making things personal and letting his personal emotions dictate the American fait. He's pissing off EU which have been a close brother to us. Now he wants to pick a fight with Saddam Hussein. It will be a very bloody war if we go to Iraq. Plus, we've pissed off China again because they are on our nuke target list. I don't know how the rest of America feels but I feel kind of scared. I guaranty that Canada will be flooded with Americans if nukes start flying.

Should we be worried America?

I also got wind that there is a small militant mother group in Colorado that is looking to go to war with Canada. Has anybody else heard of this "Blame Canada" movement?

90% of Canada's population lives within 200 miles of the US border, so it's not like Canadians wouldn't be affected.

yep. if nukes start flying against the US, we will be the first to know (and to go).
(Norad anyone?) :(

[quote]Originally posted by MacGyver:
<strong>90% of Canada's population lives within 200 miles of the US border, so it's not like Canadians wouldn't be affected.</strong><hr></blockquote>

We build a Windrivers fallout shelter.

I think we need to clean up the mess that has been out there for too long. Will that lead to a World War, sure it could. I don't think anyone is capable of doing that, except China, India, Russia and the US. North Korea has Nukes, but I don't think they can even reach American soil (except perhaps Hawaii), so whom would they target?

Terrorism is an infection supported by smaller, less endowed countries. They have the money to attack the free world; they just don't have any real means other than terrorists.

I say flush them out, and cut their heads off. Terrorist supporters will be less and less over the next few years. Maybe then we can get on a plane without fear.

Ive said it before, and I'll say it again. Put simply, Bush is a friggin retard. I would trust him to pump my gas, let alone run my country.

my 0.2c

maybe he is the anti christ :eek:

[quote]Originally posted by EvilCabbage:
<strong>Ive said it before, and I'll say it again. Put simply, Bush is a friggin retard. I would trust him to pump my gas, let alone run my country.

my 0.2c</strong><hr></blockquote>

He isn’t a retard. He is thinking more about his political statue then what he is actually doing for our contry. I think.

...your from Australia, how the hell would you know anything, you don't live in the most wealthy, most powerful, most free country in the world? I guarantee you would be singing a different song if you lived in the USA. No beef intended, it's just that you can’t justify making comments like that.

I completely agree with Ya_know...

But Bush also needs to realize what a war will do.

Sure, we've been in them, but none have really happened on this continent for about 150 years.
The EU knows first hand what a war will do, most of Europe was decimated not once, but twice over the past 100 years, and each war is a lot worse than the last.

Bush needs to work with the EU, NATO, even the Warsaw Pact countries to figure out this issue, and deal with it as a team. We all learned that back in the 40s that teamwork is the only way to resolve an international issue without making it ten times worse.

As for the point of the only countries that can fight in a all-out nuclear attack, Its not just those handful of countries. Isreal has nukes, so deas the UK, Spain, Argentina, Germany, France, Italy, Pakistan, , a lot of the former USSR countries (Georgia, Ukraine, ect...),and there is a very good chance that Iraq, Iran, Syria, Egypt, Lybia, and a few others do have nukes (whats to say that Cuba still doesn't have them after the missl crisis?)..

Sure, North Korea may not have the reach, but whats to stop a sub from going right up to San Fransisco and blowing it to hell? How about Tokyo? China? South Korea? Australia (very strong ties with the US right now...)? The Phillipines?

Same with Iraq. Isreal, Turkey, parts of the EU, Egypt

Sure, not much would hit the US directly with a nuke to Tokyo, Athens, or Melbourne, but look at the long term effects, global tensions skyrocket, world economy crumbles (esp with a hit to Tokyo or in the EU). Its gone beyond killing now.

Even Bin Laden said, Sept 11 wasn't just about killing and destroying, he showed how fragile the world economy is. That one day, even though we were in a recession, pushed it back even further. Sept 10th, there was a good outlook of it being over and on a way to a very strong recovery Dec/Jan. After Setp 11th, over 50,000 people had no place to work instantly. Then, airliners laid off tens of thousands. Guess what? People who don't work don't pay as much taxes.Less taxes = less revinue for the government. Less revinue = less spending on what is needed in a time like this, military and science. All that was done without any weapons of mass destruction, just about 2 1/2 dozen men (I use that term loosly) with airline tickets, some crude weapons and training.

Well said Opiate. I dont see Americans talking **** about Tony Blair or Geoff Galop or whoever, because the fact is, we don't know that much about them, or the political system in their respective countries. Unless you know what EXACTLY someones intents are, you cannot, CANNOT, judge them as a person.

Bush is NOT a 'friggn retard'.

The threats of a nuclear attack, as long as no terrorists or extremist groups come into power with one, is very small.

The WHOLE reason we want to attack Iraq is to PREVENT A nuclear war. Saddam will have a functional ICBM NUKE capable of blowing up israel, or a US Target from anywhere from 5 to 18 months. Saddam is a madman, and he has proven his irrational behavior before, and will do it again. The day he gets a nuke, something will happen from his part. Say good bye to Israel.

We need to take him out FAST take him out HARD and take him out NOW. If not, the fate of the world is in his hands. Bush knows this. The UN knows this. And Most of your countries governments know this. And when it comes down to it, they will be here to help us out, regardless of what they say now.

[quote]Originally posted by Draggar:
<strong>I completely agree with Ya_know...

But Bush also needs to realize what a war will do.

Sure, we've been in them, but none have really happened on this continent for about 150 years.
The EU knows first hand what a war will do, most of Europe was decimated not once, but twice over the past 100 years, and each war is a lot worse than the last.

Bush needs to work with the EU, NATO, even the Warsaw Pact countries to figure out this issue, and deal with it as a team. We all learned that back in the 40s that teamwork is the only way to resolve an international issue without making it ten times worse.

As for the point of the only countries that can fight in a all-out nuclear attack, Its not just those handful of countries. Isreal has nukes, so deas the UK, Spain, Argentina, Germany, France, Italy, Pakistan, , a lot of the former USSR countries (Georgia, Ukraine, ect...),and there is a very good chance that Iraq, Iran, Syria, Egypt, Lybia, and a few others do have nukes (whats to say that Cuba still doesn't have them after the missl crisis?)..

Sure, North Korea may not have the reach, but whats to stop a sub from going right up to San Fransisco and blowing it to hell? How about Tokyo? China? South Korea? Australia (very strong ties with the US right now...)? The Phillipines?

Same with Iraq. Isreal, Turkey, parts of the EU, Egypt

Sure, not much would hit the US directly with a nuke to Tokyo, Athens, or Melbourne, but look at the long term effects, global tensions skyrocket, world economy crumbles (esp with a hit to Tokyo or in the EU). Its gone beyond killing now.

Even Bin Laden said, Sept 11 wasn't just about killing and destroying, he showed how fragile the world economy is. That one day, even though we were in a recession, pushed it back even further. Sept 10th, there was a good outlook of it being over and on a way to a very strong recovery Dec/Jan. After Setp 11th, over 50,000 people had no place to work instantly. Then, airliners laid off tens of thousands. Guess what? People who don't work don't pay as much taxes.Less taxes = less revinue for the government. Less revinue = less spending on what is needed in a time like this, military and science. All that was done without any weapons of mass destruction, just about 2 1/2 dozen men (I use that term loosly) with airline tickets, some crude weapons and training.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Just to set the record straight. The Federal Reserve Board Chairman, Alan Greenspan has said that we are no longer in a recession. This was about 1 week ago. YEAH!

Hopfully the un-employment gap will shrink and we can continue as hard working Americans. I think the Brits airline market got hit almost as hard as the US did, given' the size comparison.

OK, let me clarify then.

I have not seen one single intelligent public statement, from Bush, that didnt make him look like a puppet. A weak figurehead, will all the backbone of a squid.

Perhaps the media is just painting a bad picture of him for us.

You also have to remember that facing Iraq wont necessarily be a 'bloody war'. more than 10 years ago we went in there, with minimal casualties. The technology now is SO much better its not funny. It would almost be a repeat of afghanistan. Constant air barrages, until all their defenses are down, then more. Then FINALLY, tank, infantry, and anti-tank units will engage. Casualties will be at a minimum.

[quote]Originally posted by EvilCabbage:
<strong>OK, let me clarify then.

I have not seen one single intelligent public statement, from Bush, that didnt make him look like a puppet. A weak figurehead, will all the backbone of a squid.

Perhaps the media is just painting a bad picture of him for us.</strong><hr></blockquote>


They must be. Bush does not look like a puppet. He doesn't look like a weak figurehead, and he definately doesn't have the 'backbone of a squid'. He sticks to his standards, he speaks strongly and reassuritavely, he doesn't back down.

[quote]Originally posted by gxavier:
<strong>


They must be. Bush does not look like a puppet. He doesn't look like a weak figurehead, and he definately doesn't have the 'backbone of a squid'. He sticks to his standards, he speaks strongly and reassuritavely, he doesn't back down.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Heh you Americans, 98% of you dont even know there are other countries outside the US. How many of you could even name the British Prime Minister without looking it up?

The whole world knows about Bush, but yer average US citizen is quite happy listening to just the one source of propaganda.

Sure yeah sabre rattling is good for votes - and the louder he blabs like that the harder the guys that have to do the real work of foreign policy have to work.

Presidents in the past have wiped out years of progress with other countries with stupid vote catching remarks. Bush won't be the last by any manner of means.

America wake up - you are not the most powerful country in the world - didn't 9-11 teach you anything? That you as a target is as vunerable as anyone else.

OK enough with the arm chair politics.

[quote]Originally posted by gxavier:
<strong>


They must be. Bush does not look like a puppet. He doesn't look like a weak figurehead, and he definately doesn't have the 'backbone of a squid'. He sticks to his standards, he speaks strongly and reassuritavely, he doesn't back down.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Ok... Cast your mind back to the election campaign, didnt seem to sharp then, did he? Then the voting.. thanks a lot for that florida.. at least then half the country didnt like him. Good sign? Methinks not.

9/11, as disasterous and ghastly as it was, was the best thing to happen to that dopey git.

He seemed plenty sharp. Just because one stumbles once or twice in his speech doesn't mean they are the dumbest **** on the planet.

-

We never said we weren't a target. I dont know who has said that. But it wasn't an American. We have always been vulnerable to terrorist attacks. No one is safe. The towers were attacked once before, if you remember. Blew the entire mall/basement up. Took years to fix it all up.

And Noonoo, you just showed that the UK has problems with misconceptions about America. For one, your silly remark about Americans not knowing who the British Prime Minister is without looking it up is crazy. Tony Blair is probably the second most known man in world politics. Americans ARENT dumb. We aren't just a bunch of trailer trash, simpsons watching, wife beating, insest screwing, fat beer drinking men with guns. And sadly, thats what most of the world thinks the majority is.

But Noonoo, I can't blame you guys for starting the misconceptions. Its media that goes to "the heart of the street", asking questions to the dumbest person they can find, ala Jay Leno, that gives America the bad wrap. So maybe we bring it on ourselves.

But yes. In my opition, we are the most powerful nation on the planet, with the strongest, most technological military, the most secure failsafed government, and some of the best people.

But what do I know. Im just an American.

Ok, I am an American, I have studied politics at length, and I do not trust Bush at all. There it has been said.
This constant foibling around finding more targets and enemies to fight, claiming victories when some watered down bill finally passes the house and gets stopped in the senate. Why is he loved so much? What has he really done?
Yes, we are at war, but a claim to stomp out all terrorism and to give a man like Bush a blank check to do as his advisors sees fit is a bad, bad thing. We should take out those responsible, but it is not our position or our right to take on all terrorism. Here in america we have terrorism, is he going to nuke the PETA for stopping boy scout fishing, is he going to nuke the religious right for bombing abortion clinics. Lets bomb the Irish while we are at it as well. Bush is said to be a great man, and for what, it is already been decided that his staff does all the work, he barely makes it through speeches, and all he has done is what any person would do given the situation. Heck his staff was handpicked for him from the greats that his dad worked with, and that the Republican party told him to pick.
I am sorry, but I cannot give my full support to this man, and the more that he does the less confidence I have in him. That being said, I fully appreciate and support everyone in the armed services that are putting their lives on the line to keep us safe. I support the fireman, the policeman and damnit the police dogs. These are the ones who have my vote, they are the ones showing true strength. Not some beady eyed rich spoiled son of a good, honest man.

Amen Cletus.

Cleetus. Where, oh WHERE, do you get the idea that Bush, Jr. is a "rich beady eyed son"? Have you ever met him? Have you ever worked with him? No. You haven't. And for those reasons, you cannot make those accusations based on what you see or hear on your local newstation.

[quote]Originally posted by gxavier:
<strong>But what do I know. Im just an American.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Could be part of the problem...

If the American system is so damn good, why are there metal detectors in schools? Why is the social security system just as broken as everywhere elses? Why is the justice system so damn corrupted?

Maybe if people werent so damn quick to pat themselves on the back...

If you think Bush, Jr. Is a retard, look at JFK. John F. Kennedy (D) is considered one of the greatest presidents ever, even by Republicans. He was also considered not very smart in highschool, college, and his early political career. He wasn't a good speaker, he stumbled quite a bit, and people thought he was just a pawn.

I honestly don't get where you people get off, and get the facts to support the statements that "Bush is dumb". Hes no more dumb than you are.

[quote]Originally posted by EvilCabbage:
<strong>

Could be part of the problem...

If the American system is so damn good, why are there metal detectors in schools? Why is the social security system just as broken as everywhere elses? Why is the justice system so damn corrupted?

Maybe if people werent so damn quick to pat themselves on the back...</strong><hr></blockquote>

Um. If the American system is so bad, then why have hundreds of governments thrown away their old, and started their new, westernized governments, based on our Constitution and Bill of Rights?

Since when is our Justice system "corrupted"?

There aren't metal detectors in schools. Well I take that back, Ive only seen one metal detector in a school before, and that was Columbine, right after school got back in. But they took them out about 3 months after. And thats not an American System issue. How could it be? I suppose its Bush's fault for doing that? Oh wait...that was a Democrat leadership. So I guess that can't be true. Our "American System" had NOTHING to do with any school shootings. They could have happened ANYWHERE else.

You cant honestly be telling me, that he has achieved such status, off his own back. If those arabs hadnt been studying kamikaze 101, he wouldnt be half the 'glorious leader' he apparently is now.

I didnt say his speeches where bad (they're written by in-house plebs either way), I said he does not appear to be a strong man, in any respect, intellect or otherwise. Now, if you have someone in power, that may not be the brightest buld on the tree, but has a great supporting crew, thats fine. But when your supporting crew is telling you to push a few buttons, kill a few more arabs, its time to emigrate.

I dont deny that the real leadership lies in the President's Cabinet...but that makes America strong. You have to remember that the President himself makes up the biggest influence in his own Cabinet.

We are only killing "a few more arabs" to protect us, you, and your kids. If you would rather prefer to allow Saddam Hussein finish creating his nuclear arsenal, fine. I hope you enjoy raising your children in a post-apocalyptic world.

There are metal detectors in our schools. Bush does have beady little eyes, his father is rich, he was handed many different companies that he ran into the ground, didn't do much with the Rangers, led the nastiest political campaign I have ever seen to beat out Grandma Richards for the Governer of Texas.
We do know some about other cultures but not enough. For instance, many many Americans who hear of Nelson Mandela think he is another Martin Luther King Jr. when in fact he publicly endorsed mass violence against the whites, and his wife ordered the death of thousands. Most do not know these things nor do they care about the facts.

Please do not get me wrong though. I am an American, I defend her honor, but I do not shy away from the problems we have either. Yes we are at war for maybe our way of life, but when I see that way being taken away by our own government(see the post on policeware) then I take my responsibility as an American to shout out my distaste for what the government is doing wrong.

As we here on Windrivers are from all over and share the universal language of technology and hatred for the common (l)user, so does all of mankind need to grow to learn how we all can interact with each other. Americans can not force this to happen as the international police, the UN is too corupt to do this themselves, and the rest of the world needs to learn to appreciate us for who we are. Americans are formed from those leaving all the other cultures, we are the ugly junk yard mutts, but somehow we come out on top, and you can't really blame us for being proud.

This maybe a bit off topic......I'm not here to defend or disparage Bush. I'm looking at the consequences of acting now vs doing nothing.
Well, eventually we will have to deal with Saddam. Do we do it now..with his chemical/biological/nuclear capacity in its infancy or do we wait for him to unleash weapons of mass distruction on his neighbors or our Allies. How long do think Israel would last if the Islamic nations that sponser terrorism had access to these weapons. And don't think about living in your happy "we are the world-all we need is love" bubble because Iran/Iraq/Syria and many others have repeatedly demonstrated their willingness to use weapons of mass destruction upon domestic and foreign "threats". in addition most reasonable intelligence agencies believe Israel has has nuclear capability since a few years before/after the 6 Day War. SO..lets say the worst case. A nuclear "device" goes off or is spotted heading toward Israel, well, most of the Arabic nations around her will also cease to exist. Then with the world in a tizzy Pakistan and India decide to finish their looong dispute over Kashmir. It starts as a "conventional" exchange but then they call in their nuclear weapons. While this is going on what will the rest of the world do, now that most of the middle east is now a glassy crater, well, they'll move in to try to salvage/claim the vital oil deposits, and what do you think will happen then? Of course this may be my paranioa talking, but it seems feasible. Or imagine this scenario, a single or several low-mid yeild 50-150KT devices are detonated in our cities...the total would easily include several dozen civilian mega-deaths. Now imagine the Israel scenario then but the US as Israel...In my mind it makes more sense to me to kill the beast while it is still young, than have it grow and spread. Any doctor will tell you it is best to excise a cancer early. Only moral cowardice would allow madmen to pursue these weapons which the few nations with have have/had them recognize the potential evil they could wreak and thus have resolved to NOT use them unless NO OTHER RECOURSE REMAINS. Of course I'm ranting and maybe this makes sense...

REMEMBER THIS: ALL that is neccesary for the triumph of EVIL is that good men DO NOTHING

[quote]Originally posted by NooNoo:
<strong>

Heh you Americans, 98% of you dont even know there are other countries outside the US. How many of you could even name the British Prime Minister without looking it up?
</strong><hr></blockquote>

Tony Blair.

Didn't have to look it up. :p :p :D

OK enough stirring it. As usual those that are vehemently opposed or for jump into the fray.

At the end of the day you are arguing about who is the best ball team - only playing the game will actually give a result - talking about it gets you nowhere.

EC I think you are right about one thing, Bush definitely is doing a Maggie, but then what political leader in his/her right mind wouldn't?

Since when did anyone equate politics with altruism?

[quote]Originally posted by gxavier:
<strong>And Noonoo, you just showed that the UK has problems with misconceptions about America. For one, your silly remark about Americans not knowing who the British Prime Minister is without looking it up is crazy. Tony Blair is probably the second most known man in world politics. Americans ARENT dumb. We aren't just a bunch of trailer trash, simpsons watching, wife beating, insest screwing, fat beer drinking men with guns. And sadly, thats what most of the world thinks the majority is.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Unfortunatly, that is how a lot of the world looked at us about 7 months ago. Passive, and afraid to get hurt.

Our "American Made" products aren't as good as they were up until the 70's and 80's. A lot of them look at us as being lazy, I want a day off for this, a day off for that. Thats how a lot of them look at our workforce.

In Somalia, we tried to keep some peace there, we lost some solders, so we pulled out. Iraq, we didn't finish the job. Libya shot and killed some of our serivcemen in defence during Kadaffi's "line of death". The US didn't react violently durning the Bay of Pigs. We pulled out of Vietnam. We've constantly tried to find a peaceful solution with Isreal vs. Palestine.

Thats why the rest of the world (esp organizations like Iraq, Al-Qaida, the Taliban, etc..) look at us like cowards. We didn't go to get Timothy McVeigh with guns flying. None of them realized what we were fully capable of.

I look at Bin Laden now as we did back in the early 40's with Hirohito. Neither of them realized what was really going to happen. They thought there would be a different outcome, but, we were able to show how we are willing to defend ourselves to the end.

I'd admit. I feel damn lucky to be living here. Rarley do we see terrorist attacks, and I'm sure something like Spet 11th will happen once in my life time ( I hope). I also feel that I do not live where this is everyday. Places like Isreal, Northern Ireland have terrorist bombings several times a week (N Ireland has seemed to cool down a lot!). SOme countries are still in civil war, like Columbia, and others still have fightng going on, like in the former USSR, the Phillipines, and in Central America.

I didn't see any reports of Bush naming China as a threat, but saying they're added to a nuke target is rather uncalled for. Sure, any country with nukes is a nuke target to the others. Russia, China, North Korea definatly. If you really put it all the way down, I'm sure France and the UK are somewhere on that list (most likly at the bottom). Its public knowledge, but its something we'd rather not talk about.

Yes, world tensions are very high, but as long as the intelligent and mature powers keep everything in line, there should't be any global thermal nuclear war. There are issues that need to be addressed. Bush calling Bin Laden "irrelevant" now is really not the wise thing to say, unless it a smokescreen. 1) He has his name. 2) He still has money. 3) He still has some of his network 4) He still has his leadership skills. Hussein may or may not have nukes now, but he definatly has chemical, and probably wouldn't hesitate to use them.

I'll stop babbling now...

[quote]Originally posted by NooNoo:
<strong>At the end of the day you are arguing about who is the best ball team - only playing the game will actually give a result - talking about it gets you nowhere.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Red Sox, definatly.

;)

[quote]Originally posted by gxavier:
<strong>


They must be. Bush does not look like a puppet. He doesn't look like a weak figurehead, and he definately doesn't have the 'backbone of a squid'. He sticks to his standards, he speaks strongly and reassuritavely, he doesn't back down.</strong><hr></blockquote>

That is definitely 1 reason why I like him as a president. He seems to speak the truth even if it's not good. He has that "Never fear, Bush is here!" attitude and prevails at the task. He is stern, blunt and seems to be honest at his every effort. Listening to his speeches makes me feel good about my American brothers and sisters (of all nationalities), we will all be united and win against any situation or for the matter any other country. And God Bless our Alies!

But like I said before, his bluntness and political statue seem to sometimes cause more problems.

[quote]Originally posted by opiate:
<strong>

That is definitely 1 reason why I like him as a president. He seems to speak the truth even if it's not good. He has that "Never fear, Bush is here!" attitude and prevails at the task. He is stern, blunt and seems to be honest at his every effort. Listening to his speeches makes me feel good about my American brothers and sisters (of all nationalities), we will all be united and win against any situation or for the matter any other country. And God Bless our Alies!

But like I said before, his bluntness and political statue seem to sometimes cause more problems.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Watch him closly during his speaches, you cantell when he's lying, he gets a little choked up..

[quote]Originally posted by Draggar:
<strong>

Watch him closly during his speaches, you cantell when he's lying, he gets a little choked up..</strong><hr></blockquote>

If you were the President of the most powerful country in the world, then wouldn't you get choked up sometimes? I know I would.

[quote]Originally posted by opiate:
<strong>

If you were the President of the most powerful country in the world, then wouldn't you get choked up sometimes? I know I would.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Yeah, but only when he lies.

Look at Clinton. You think all his "I'm so sorry I had that inappropiate relationship with Miss Lewinsky" were really honest and from the heart? I think not...

The non-Americans need to realize that we are trying to bring peace through out the world. And if that means starting wars to flush out the threats on the US and other countries, then I don't see a problem.

[quote]Originally posted by Draggar:
<strong>

Yeah, but only when he lies.

Look at Clinton. You think all his "I'm so sorry I had that inappropiate relationship with Miss Lewinsky" were really honest and from the heart? I think not...</strong><hr></blockquote>

That was Clintons personal life and not him as a Presedent. Besides what the heck is your point?

Edited by Bracius