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[quote]Originally posted by Sowulo:
<strong>
When I was a kid (50's and 60's) we all played 'Cops and Robbers'; 'Cowboys and Indians'; and 'Army'. All of our games were about violence, we dug pits for booby traps in the woods and set out blackberry cane snares, etc. Things haven't changed, things aren't worse, we've just changed our views about what's acceptible and pay a lot more attention to the things we deem socially unacceptable.....We would all do well to just quit worrying so much and especially quit pointing fingers and playing the blame game on parents and teachers. When you were little, was it possible for your parents to know everything you did? Of course not! We never did anything bad but we sure made the effort to keep things from our parents.....</strong><hr></blockquote>
Ditto.
I had a rotten childhood and played every violent game, saw every violent movie and I am quite fine (well mostly). I have not killed, raped or maimed anyone. People do the things they do because they are stupid, insane, double y chromes, or the biggest one - they actually made the decision to do something wrong and violent themselves outside influences be damned. I've seen plenty of neanderthals do lots of stupid things and in the end everything they did was up to them and they made a choice to do something wrong/violent.
Video games are just another way for lousy politicians to get a few extra votes in the elections. People just eat up anything that they can point a finger at, truth be damned. Its the same thing with drugs. The drug didn't make anyone rob, or harm anyone, the person made the decision to do that. Politicians just harp on the end result and scapegoat a substance and people as always eat up anything that they can blame, wag a finger at and let them say - see - it was the fault of that thing not you, that thing made you do it. It’s the devil made me do it syndrome. Nobody ever wants to recognize the fact that we are responsible for our own actions in the end and the thing that we see and hear are only minor influences upon the real decisions we make in our lives. It's just another way to shirk responsibility, nothing more.
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[quote]Originally posted by ilovetheusers:
<strong> The drug didn't make anyone rob, or harm anyone, the person made the decision to do that.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I almost fully agree with that statement. I do think that there are times when the person is so strung out that they'll do anything to get their next fix. Yes, they made the decision, but they were acting under duress. The only reason they don't get any sympathy from me, is that they put themselves in a situation where they would lose controll of their bodies. That's why I stay away from drugs. I'm too afraid of losing control of my self.
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[quote]Originally posted by ilovetheusers:
<strong>
Ditto.
I had a rotten childhood and played every violent game, saw every violent movie and I am quite fine (well mostly). I have not killed, raped or maimed anyone. People do the things they do because they are stupid, insane, double y chromes, or the biggest one - they actually made the decision to do something wrong and violent themselves outside influences be damned. I've seen plenty of neanderthals do lots of stupid things and in the end everything they did was up to them and they made a choice to do something wrong/violent.
Video games are just another way for lousy politicians to get a few extra votes in the elections. People just eat up anything that they can point a finger at, truth be damned. Its the same thing with drugs. The drug didn't make anyone rob, or harm anyone, the person made the decision to do that. Politicians just harp on the end result and scapegoat a substance and people as always eat up anything that they can blame, wag a finger at and let them say - see - it was the fault of that thing not you, that thing made you do it. It’s the devil made me do it syndrome. Nobody ever wants to recognize the fact that we are responsible for our own actions in the end and the thing that we see and hear are only minor influences upon the real decisions we make in our lives. It's just another way to shirk responsibility, nothing more.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Amen bro! And speaking as one who used to do emergency crisis interventions with families who had teens involved with chemicals, violent behaviors, gangs, self-abuse, satanic occult......Yes, parents have some influence but not nearly as much as all the 'holier-than-thou' responses we've had on this topic. Blaming the parenting is just another effort to point fingers and every bit as repugnant to anyone who has worked with kids involved in these activities I've mentioned. There's a good chance that most of you who are so sure the parenting is to blame have never even raised kids all the way to adulthood. The only positive value I learned from my parents is a strong work ethic....everything else I had to figure out for myself.
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[quote]Originally posted by cc_penguin:
<strong>Seems there is a bill to be passed in Georia to make it a misdemeanor to sell violent games to a minor. What are your thoughts, good or bad??
Oh, almost forgot <a href="http://www.legis.state.ga.us/Legis/2001_02/versions/hb1378_LC_19_5388_a_2.htm" target="_blank">the link </a>...</strong><hr></blockquote>
well I let my nine and eleven year old kids play UT and Q3,and it does not make them go out and do a Columbine,
I think it's up to the parents to give their kids guidance and talk to them about this stuff(which I do),
I think that if a kid goes out and does violent acts in real life,a video game is not to blame,there is gonna be more deeply rooted problems existing before the game was played.
and then you have to look at the parents.
I do believe I am responsible for my kids.
there is my .02. :)
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[quote]Originally posted by Sowulo:
<strong>
Amen bro! And speaking as one who used to do emergency crisis interventions with families who had teens involved with chemicals, violent behaviors, gangs, self-abuse, satanic occult......Yes, parents have some influence but not nearly as much as all the 'holier-than-thou' responses we've had on this topic. Blaming the parenting is just another effort to point fingers and every bit as repugnant to anyone who has worked with kids involved in these activities I've mentioned. There's a good chance that most of you who are so sure the parenting is to blame have never even raised kids all the way to adulthood. The only positive value I learned from my parents is a strong work ethic....everything else I had to figure out for myself.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Gonna have to start me a Sowulo ditohead club or somethin'.
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[quote]Originally posted by ilovetheusers:
<strong>
Gonna have to start me a Sowulo ditohead club or somethin'.</strong><hr></blockquote>
;) ;)
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[quote]Originally posted by Sowulo:
<strong>
Amen bro! And speaking as one who used to do emergency crisis interventions with families who had teens involved with chemicals, violent behaviors, gangs, self-abuse, satanic occult......Yes, parents have some influence but not nearly as much as all the 'holier-than-thou' responses we've had on this topic. Blaming the parenting is just another effort to point fingers and every bit as repugnant to anyone who has worked with kids involved in these activities I've mentioned. There's a good chance that most of you who are so sure the parenting is to blame have never even raised kids all the way to adulthood. The only positive value I learned from my parents is a strong work ethic....everything else I had to figure out for myself.</strong><hr></blockquote>
damn!@ I am really sorry to hear that so many of you had rotten childhoods,but I did'nt and alot of people did'nt,I had a great childhood,and I thank my parents for alot of life stuff they taught me.and I still tell my dad that often,that I think he did a good job.
I do not think I am holier than thou,I do feel I can speak of parenting,my kids are good kids,I am sorry to hear that you did'nt get anything good from your parents but work ethic,but some of us got more out of growing up with good parents than you did.not all are like you,damn !and yes,I do believe that the parents share the responsibility for how their children turn out,I disagree with you.and I am not pointing fingers without knowing what I am talking about.your way is not the only way.I am offended by your remarks,just because YOU have issues,does not mean we all do!some of us ARE good parents and I will happily take a large responsibility for my kids and how they grow up.children are largely a product of their environment,at the same time,I as an adult have learned alot about life by myself and others beides my parents too.I have alot of both my parents in me,and I take the good and the bad of that and put it to good use.
you sir,are NOT right about everything,like you think you are.you are just another person online,you're a forum moderator,not a god.
and yes I agree,it should be up to the parents as to what their kids do.if the kids are minors then yes.some of us parents pay attention to our kids.
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I just want to clarify my earlier post.
I am not 100% blaming parents in regards to their kid's violent behavior. It has a number of factors, including but not limited to, parenting, enviroment, peers, etc.
All I'm saying is that back on topic I believe it should be up to the parents whether or not to allow their kids to buy /rent violent video games; not a law.
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[quote]Originally posted by SlyVenom:
<strong>Originally posted by Evil Cabbage
http://www.penny-arcade.com/images/2001/20011203l.gif</strong><hr></blockquote>
Here are some old Topics that covered this...
<a href="http://forums.windrivers.com/cgi-bin/forum3/noncgi/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=36&t=001003" target="_blank">http://forums.windrivers.com/cgi-bin/forum3/noncgi/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=36&t=001003</a>
<a href="http://forums.windrivers.com/cgi-bin/forum3/noncgi/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=36&t=002347" target="_blank">http://forums.windrivers.com/cgi-bin/forum3/noncgi/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=36&t=002347</a>
<a href="http://forums.windrivers.com/cgi-bin/forum3/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=36&t=002372&p=" target="_blank">http://forums.windrivers.com/cgi-bin/forum3/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=36&t=002372&p=</a>
<a href="http://forums.windrivers.com/cgi-bin/forum3/noncgi/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=36&t=003064" target="_blank">http://forums.windrivers.com/cgi-bin/forum3/noncgi/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=36&t=003064</a>
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I say give the kids their games. But the parents should play the games with their kids instead of letting their kids sit in their rooms all night in the dark by themselves being influenced by life-like shooting experiences.
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I agree, stupid parents breed stupid kids...You're the damn parents SO PARENT!!
But no no...the cause of violence is the industry not policing the stores selling the games...so lets have the govt do it for us!! If you don't like violent games, here's a radical idea! don't buy em!, don't let your kids buy em!, get involved in your kids interests more! ***if you don't know if your kid(s) collects guns or tortures animals or is having trouble coping in school you're not paying attention, you are obviously living in a fantasy world hoping the schools and teachers will raise your children*** , the damn tv and game console are NOT baby-sitters!, write letters to company exec's!, boycott the companies making the games!..just don't get the ham fisted, reactionary govt involved...sheesh. Are we so stupid we can't even take responsibility for anything anymore, must we be spoon fed reality and easy fix solutions now?
and if your kids have severe problems talk to them! get them counseling if needed, problems dont magically suddenly appear any more so, than they'll disappear!
man i really should get more than 3 hours of sleep before posting..
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[quote]Originally posted by crazyman:
<strong>
damn!@ I am really sorry to hear that so many of you had rotten childhoods,but I did'nt and alot of people did'nt,I had a great childhood,and I thank my parents for alot of life stuff they taught me.and I still tell my dad that often,that I think he did a good job.
I do not think I am holier than thou,I do feel I can speak of parenting,my kids are good kids,I am sorry to hear that you did'nt get anything good from your parents but work ethic,but some of us got more out of growing up with good parents than you did.not all are like you,damn !and yes,I do believe that the parents share the responsibility for how their children turn out,I disagree with you.and I am not pointing fingers without knowing what I am talking about.your way is not the only way.I am offended by your remarks,just because YOU have issues,does not mean we all do!some of us ARE good parents and I will happily take a large responsibility for my kids and how they grow up.children are largely a product of their environment,at the same time,I as an adult have learned alot about life by myself and others beides my parents too.I have alot of both my parents in me,and I take the good and the bad of that and put it to good use.
you sir,are NOT right about everything,like you think you are.you are just another person online,you're a forum moderator,not a god.
and yes I agree,it should be up to the parents as to what their kids do.if the kids are minors then yes.some of us parents pay attention to our kids.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I'm sorry you were offended. Truly. If you reread my comment, the real focus is that I have experience as a counselor dealing with families with some severely messed up kids. I've dealt with kids that have attempted murder, raped younger sisters, sold rat poison as crack, etc., etc. In most cases these families had other kids who were well behaved, doing well in school, etc. My point in mentioning my own upbringing and acknowledging ILovetheUsers' is that the vast, vast majority of kids grow up without any serious social/emotional disfunctions regardless of how wonderful or horrible their parenting was. What makes one kid get into serious trouble when another doesn't (especially from the same family)? No one really knows. Professionals don't know but they do know that peer pressure is immense and kids do things within the context of a peer-group that they would never do otherwise....
I happened to see this discussed by young teens, their parents, and some clinical psychologists today on Oprah (hadn't seen that show in years). The parents were pretty shocked to see film of their kids in action at school....As parents, as much as we'd like to believe we have control, the fact is we just don't. We can love our kids, spend time with them, be supportive, all that good stuff and hopefully they'll turn out great but there are never any guarantees. We all do the best we can.
Hopefully, good parenting will improve the odds but it just doesn't help to point fingers at parenting when something goes wrong. The facts just don't support the hypothesis.
According to the Bible Adam and Eve had two sons, Cain and Abel. Do we assume that because Cain killed Abel that Adam and Eve had really poor parenting skills? Or, acknowledge that Cain, like everyone else who has ever lived had his own mind and exercised his own God-given freewill and should be held responsible for his own actions. Did God hold Adam and Eve (notwithstanding that they are the ones who introduced sin by eating of the tree of knowledge) responsible for Cain's actions or did he just punish Cain?
According to the judicial system of the two states I have lived in (and helped write some of those laws in Washington in the early 90's), Parents are only held responsible for the actions of their kids to the degree that they knew or reasonably suspected the criminal actions of their children and did not make a reasonable effort to stop them. These parents can and are held responsible but these cases are very rare.
Again, most of the time we just don't know and pointing fingers doesn't solve anything: doing so just let's the rest of us feel superior.
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Coooool.. i got quoted, twice. I rule.
Im hung like a horse too ladies.... that is, hairy with floppy ears.. but back on track.
The problem here, is that the censors are trying to do the job of crap parents. I crawled all over the Australian censorship mob when they decided to ban GTA3, and after the protest of many, many people, its back on our shelves.
If a child plays a wrestling video game, then goes and breaks his arm, they should break his other arm, and beat the snot out of the parents for raising such a friggin moron.
Cabbage out.
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I agree with both parties here. Yes, I do feel that parents hold the largest majority of responsiblity when raising a child. They are the PARENTS, they are around all the time, and can shape that child in any given way. I also agree that a child that has the greatest parents can go bad.
The problem is enacting silly laws to ban games, censor movies, blah, blah, blah, to "save the children", scapegoats are being made for solid family life. Notice, I did not use the catch-all "family values", whatever that really means.
I watched the parents around a tennis tournament that my girlfriend managed this last weekend. Watching these parents, I got a good idea why we keep getting all these laws. Complete refusal to admit that their kid might be a)a bad athlete, b) a horrible sport, c)be wrong. I spent three years as a t-ball umpire, and I saw more than I needed to there as well.
In the end, we need to just let kids be kids. Let them ride a bike without full battle armor. Let them play war, get dirty, run amock. But also, don't forget to teach them discipline and a respect for those around them(notice once again I will not use "family values".
Of course I could be completly wrong and off in my opinions, I don't plan on ever having children.
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[quote]Originally posted by cleetus:
<strong>
In the end, we need to just let kids be kids. Let them ride a bike without full battle armor. Let them play war, get dirty, run amock. But also, don't forget to teach them discipline and a respect for those around them(notice once again I will not use "family values".
Of course I could be completly wrong and off in my opinions, I don't plan on ever having children.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I second that!
Nothing proves this than the "Hockey Dad Trial".
Last year, in NJ we had at least 3 brawls break out at YOUTH (grammar school) soccer games, because the parent's were upset at a call.
How do you think a child that young (some as young as 5), having your parents telling you to behave and respect people, while they're starting a brawl because the ref called a foul on you, and it was something you knew you did wrong?
Of course, parents nowadays are even afraid to touch their children. With DYFUS, a child can call and they'll come beating down the door on the "bad parents".
My sister-in-law called them when she was 8 because her paren't wouldn't let her go to a movie on a school night. They came, and it was a nightmare for her parents.
Some kids know this, and they take advantage of it. (Don't get me wrong, DYFUS can be a great organization if they pay attention to where they're really needed!).
Parents became soft because they didn't want to spank their kids like thier parents did to them, this letting the kid get away with murder.
Teach the kids respect, honor, and humility.
