Terrorist driving Nick Berg's car?

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That comment would be laughable if you weren't so damn serious....

So, you're saying that just about every American is a killer? Then that would put the majority of us on the same level as every common criminal.

How do you propose to "address" this?

There are plenty of people in uniform that still have morals...

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Yours is the response that prevents us from doing anything about our problems. I never said there weren't plenty of people in uniform who don't have morals. If you read my posts I said a large majority (which is more than plenty) are good decent people.
But you have taken some legitimate criticism and deflected it by twisting it to include almost everyone.
Simplistic sayings like yours are not helping.
Any reasonable person who lives in this country knows we have a problem with robbery, rape and murder. In fact many politicians are elected on law and order platforms to try and control the problem. Any responsible military officer should realize that not all his troops are good, decent etc. Safeguards needed to be in place and they weren't. When the Red Cross revealed the situation it was denied.
And the fact is that the people in the photographs were Americans.
And the photographs may end up being the single most influential reason we have lost the Iraqis good will.

and btw do we know if terrorists were driving Mr. Bergs car?

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Originally Posted by techs

and btw do we know if terrorists were driving Mr. Bergs car?

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Not that I'm aware of. They only had his internet account logon and password which Berg gave them.

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Originally Posted by silencio

Not that I'm aware of. They only had his internet account logon and password which Berg gave them.

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Jayna was on the Smerconish (sic?) show with the FBI director at the time of the bombing that was in charge of the sace. They had a very civil talk on the air and his overall opinion was that she was drawing conclusions that did not pan out in the real world investigations that the FBI did. The FBI found no link between McVeigh and Iraqi intelligence or terrorists elsewhere.



The Nick Berg thing. Well. It's specious at best and This guy, the terrorists and oklahoma lend a lot of creedence to her story now. Iraq intelligence, terrorists and this kid all in the same spot before the bombing then he's in Iraq after the war without any protection at all... It's very coincidental, interesting (dunno what word to use) but it still proves nothing.

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Originally Posted by ilovetheusers

Jayna was on the Smerconish (sic?) show with the FBI director at the time of the bombing that was in charge of the sace. They had a very civil talk on the air and his overall opinion was that she was drawing conclusions that did not pan out in the real world investigations that the FBI did. The FBI found no link between McVeigh and Iraqi intelligence or terrorists elsewhere.

The Nick Berg thing. Well. It's specious at best and This guy, the terrorists and oklahoma lend a lot of creedence to her story now. Iraq intelligence, terrorists and this kid all in the same spot before the bombing then he's in Iraq after the war without any protection at all... It's very coincidental, interesting (dunno what word to use) but it still proves nothing.

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The FBI acknowledges this as well as his father "Moussout had his internet account logon and password which Berg gave them." His father states that they were riding on a bus when Moussout asked him to use his laptop... Sheet, I don't even give my wife my passwords. :D

As for Oklahoma, there's a lot of interesting information (or disinformation) all over the web about that too including:

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Two key witnesses in the Oklahoma City bombing case will not appear to testify at the Denver trial of Timothy McVeigh, one of the two accused of being responsible for the bombing, because they are dead. One death has been labeled a suicide. The other victim was killed in an air crash. Both deaths took place under questionable circumstances.
The supposed suicide is Oklahoma City Police Officer Terrance Yeakey. Dr. Howard D. Chumley was killed when his airplane crashed on a flight from Amarillo, Texas to Guthrie, Oklahoma. Yeakey is one of those cited for extraordinary bravery right after the bombing of the Alfred E. Murrah Federal Office Building in Oklahoma City in his case for rescuing four people from the devastated structure before he fell through a floor and injured his back. Official reports claim Yeakey slashed his wrists, one twice and the other three times, placed two slits in a vein at the bend of the elbow of one arm and four at the bend of the elbow of the other, and then stabbed himself with the knife in both sides of the throat, near the jugular vein. Then he walked one-and-a-half miles where he shot himself in the side of the head. The bullet entered the upper temple on the right side and exited below the upper jaw bone on the left side, meaning the gun would have been pointed in a downward angle -- a most unlikely way for a person bent on suicide to hold a gun. -+- Hard To Believe -+-

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But who the hell really knows what's true on the web.

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Originally Posted by techs

One last thing.
I am getting pretty pissed off at the President, Sec. of Defense etc who keep saying the actions in the prisons in Iraq "Are not the American people" we are good, kind and decent.

They WERE the actions of American people.
In America we rob, rape and kill in numbers that are staggeringly high for a developed country.
We have serious problems in this country which need to be addressed. Assuming that they don't exist when an American puts on a uniform is nonsense.

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Here's a rarity, I actually agree with you. Most people are perverted in some way, but reserved by societal boundaries. When given the opportunity to express themselves in a manor unobstructed by inhibition, or even worse, repetitively placed in situations where this behavior is not only accepted but also encouraged, all the inner demons work their way to the surface, and the freaky takes over.

She was a freak with the other soldiers…well there’s a surprise [/sarcasm]. Women in combat, or in this prison situation simply don’t belong. I think this is an ample example of how this is a problem, and will continue to be if we don’t make changes in our position in this matter. War is hell, and women can only tangle things up beyond the confusion and fear. You get a bunch of young men and young women away from home, even the most disciplined bunch will alter emotionally when relating to one another over time in combat. Far from home, death and danger at your next step, rational becomes an occupational hazard, and emotions are high. You can’t cloud the minds of troops then expect them to perform exemplarily and with honor around ever turn. You must keep discipline high, moral must be up, and the killing spirit cultivated just enough to get these missions accomplished, but without civilian and noncombatant casualties.

This is one of the same debates used with respect to homosexuals in the military, why did it work to keep that element out, but we still put women in combat??? That is uncivilized!!!

<rant>

I just want to say that I saw the David Berg video and it was cruel, evil, sadistic and very informative of the kind of people we are dealing with. I don't even know why I looked for it except to satisfy some morbid curiosity of mine, but I'm glad I saw it.

Anyway, the sickos didn't even have the decency to use an axe. The told him he was going to be beheaded and he was struggling profusely. Then they started chanting together in Arabic and they cut his head off with knife....first from the back and then from the front. Like a turkey drumstick on Thanksgiving.

IMHO they don't deserve any pity or patience. I think we should treat them like they treated Berg.....They should be treated like the pigs they are....:D

And furthermore, if the cowardly news media had enough guts to show the video,there would be such a worldwide backlash against Al Quada that they would be wiped out tomorrow!!!!

</rant>

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Originally Posted by techs

One last thing.
I am getting pretty pissed off at the President, Sec. of Defense etc who keep saying the actions in the prisons in Iraq "Are not the American people" we are good, kind and decent.

They WERE the actions of American people.
In America we rob, rape and kill in numbers that are staggeringly high for a developed country.
We have serious problems in this country which need to be addressed. Assuming that they don't exist when an American puts on a uniform is nonsense.

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I agree with you.

From the my point of view sitting over here all I see is lies and coersion. That is what this war seems to be based on. America says its saving Iraq from "saddam" and his regime and then they go there and show the same barbaric lack of control. Surely the soldiers knew that it was wrong or is this kinda of thing "normal" to the soldiers. America has set itself as the rescuer, the hero making everything right, after this I see America as being no better than the people they are invading after the things I have seen. Conspiracy theories, well now where there is smoke there is fire. 10 years ago people were starting to be taken serious when questioning the odd things that happened sometimes.
Now you have given these people a label "conspiricist" which basically means "loon". So now someone who has these ideas is labelled a nutter and laughed off. Bah...Im not going to get started but honestly, America is starting to look pretty bad in international eyes.


I saw the Nick Berg vid. It didnt look like him at all. I have to many questions about the whole deal.

Oh and to the persons who attacked techs post.. That is to be expected. Of course after all the "patriotic" things coming out of the woodwork since sep 11 I would expect you to stand up and defend your country but please do not forget why you were armed by your constitution. Your country is one thing, your governemnt is something completely different. Anyway i havent spoken much on this issue and that is all i am saying today because i am sure there's someone, who instead of seeing another perspective will attack my post and my views.

an analogy to me as an aussie on that matter is

Nice German boys thought Hitler was just the bee's knees
Nice German Boys thought everything Germany was doing was fair and just.
Nice German boys killed maimed and injured millions following their master.

I ask you Americans really.....are the blinkers off ???????????

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Originally Posted by Mayet

I agree with you.

From the my point of view sitting over here all I see is lies and coersion. That is what this war seems to be based on. America says its saving Iraq from "saddam" and his regime and then they go there and show the same barbaric lack of control. Surely the soldiers knew that it was wrong or is this kinda of thing "normal" to the soldiers. America has set itself as the rescuer, the hero making everything right, after this I see America as being no better than the people they are invading after the things I have seen. Conspiracy theories, well now where there is smoke there is fire. 10 years ago people were starting to be taken serious when questioning the odd things that happened sometimes.
Now you have given these people a label "conspiricist" which basically means "loon". So now someone who has these ideas is labelled a nutter and laughed off. Bah...Im not going to get started but honestly, America is starting to look pretty bad in international eyes.

Oh and to the persons who attacked techs post.. That is to be expected

an analogy to me as an aussie on that matter is

Nice German boys thought Hitler was just the bee's knees
Nice German Boys thought everything Germany was doing was fair and just.
Nice German boys killed maimed and injured millions following their master.

I ask you Americans really.....are the blinkers off ???????????

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Are you comparing the USA with pre WW2 Germany and Bush with Hitler???

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Originally Posted by Mayet

...I ask you Americans really.....are the blinkers off ???????????

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yes.

(assuming by "blinkers" you mean blinders.)

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Oh and to the persons who attacked techs post.. That is to be expected. Of course after all the "patriotic" things coming out of the woodwork since sep 11 I would expect you to stand up and defend your country but please do not forget why you were armed by your constitution.

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Thank you Mayet.
In America we have a long history of using "patriotism" as a weapon against those who disagree with our leaders.
Patriotism has been a cry used to taint those who question our governments actions. Being in Australia you probably have not seen hour after hour of "news" broadcasts ridiculing those who disagree with the war on Iraq and our conduct of it. You have also not been barraged with a 200 million dollar campaign by Bush to paint those who oppose the war as "weak on terrorism", "anti-American" and "allies of terrorists".
Fortunately most Americans are coming around. Last I looked only about 40 percent of Americans still support the war. Some of those who lived thru VietNam are leading the way to prevent history from repeating itself.
When people criticize and demean me by their posts I remember that most people only believe what they last heard and rely on others to think for them. Those who try to take an objective view have always been in minority. We fight the good fight. Sometimes we win and sometimes we lose. But if the true patriotic Americans refuse to give in to the tyranny of government in the end we will keep our country.

Hey, I haven't called you a dick yet. :D

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Originally Posted by Mayet

I agree with you.

From the my point of view sitting over here all I see is lies and coersion. That is what this war seems to be based on. America says its saving Iraq from "saddam" and his regime and then they go there and show the same barbaric lack of control. Surely the soldiers knew that it was wrong or is this kinda of thing "normal" to the soldiers. America has set itself as the rescuer, the hero making everything right, after this I see America as being no better than the people they are invading after the things I have seen. Conspiracy theories, well now where there is smoke there is fire. 10 years ago people were starting to be taken serious when questioning the odd things that happened sometimes.
Now you have given these people a label "conspiricist" which basically means "loon". So now someone who has these ideas is labelled a nutter and laughed off. Bah...Im not going to get started but honestly, America is starting to look pretty bad in international eyes.


I saw the Nick Berg vid. It didnt look like him at all. I have to many questions about the whole deal.

Oh and to the persons who attacked techs post.. That is to be expected. Of course after all the "patriotic" things coming out of the woodwork since sep 11 I would expect you to stand up and defend your country but please do not forget why you were armed by your constitution. Your country is one thing, your governemnt is something completely different. Anyway i havent spoken much on this issue and that is all i am saying today because i am sure there's someone, who instead of seeing another perspective will attack my post and my views.

an analogy to me as an aussie on that matter is

Nice German boys thought Hitler was just the bee's knees
Nice German Boys thought everything Germany was doing was fair and just.
Nice German boys killed maimed and injured millions following their master.

I ask you Americans really.....are the blinkers off ???????????

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Wow! How about you remove your own blinkers before becoming the kettle that calls the pot black. You seem to want to lump ALL Americans into one horrid group due to the actions of a few "loons". America is no better in your eyes than the ones they invaded because of what you saw? You saw how many power tripping out of control individuals? Less than a dozen? And now you equate them with all of America and all Americans??? Geesh, get some perspective.
The conspiracy stuff, I have know idea what you're talikng about. Berg? It didn't even look like him? So, it was all made up? Then you have the nerve and lack of knowledge and foresight to compare us to WWII Germany and the Nazi's?

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Originally Posted by Mayet

Anyway i havent spoken much on this issue and that is all i am saying today because i am sure there's someone, who instead of seeing another perspective will attack my post and my views.

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There IS someone, but this someone fails to see a logical perspective. let alone another perspective. In fact: I don't see any perpective. I though you were intelligent....https://forums.windrivers.com/images.../2005/03/1.gif

Perspective? Our soldiers pile up naked prisioners and photo them. Put some on a leash. Fool others into believing they will be raped unless they talk. The photos get out. Keep in mind terrorists have no protection under the Geneva Convention. "They" behead an American civillian, and we are the bad guys?

When Bush said this was going to be a long struggle, he meant it. We have to change their way of thinking. It will take generations. Just as it did in Germany and Japan. It worked out for the better then, it will again.

Damn Mobile! You go boy! Once a Ranger, always a Ranger, huh?
One correction: NOT all of our soldiers were bad! And, as you infer, intimidation in war (something many do not think about) is effective and gets results. Geesh, those punks probably had hard on's. https://forums.windrivers.com/images.../2005/03/1.gif And, for the first time in their lives.https://forums.windrivers.com/images.../2006/04/1.gif No wonder they all want to move to America.
But yeah, you're right. WE are the bad guys????? Come on now. Read some real stories about torture. That wasn't torture!! Not in the true and uncivilized sense of the word: it could have been worse!!
And, like you say, there is much work to be done and many years of it! Those ARE the "hard" facts. But hey: someone has to do it, and so many don't want to do it.https://forums.windrivers.com/images.../2005/03/1.gif

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Originally Posted by MobilePCPhysician

Keep in mind terrorists have no protection under the Geneva Convention.

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A good point.

Statement by the Press Secretary on the Geneva Convention. Dated May 7, 2003...a little over a year ago.

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To qualify as POWs under Article 4, al Qaeda and Taliban detainees would have to have satisfied four conditions: They would have to be part of a military hierarchy; they would have to have worn uniforms or other distinctive signs visible at a distance; they would have to have carried arms openly; and they would have to have conducted their military operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war.

Al Qaeda is an international terrorist group and cannot be considered a state party to the Geneva Convention. Its members, therefore, are not covered by the Geneva Convention, and are not entitled to POW status under the treaty.

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Later on, he says:

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The military operates under a code of conduct that upholds these values, based on the dignity of every individual.

The American people can take great pride in the way our military is treating these dangerous detainees. The Convention remains as important today as it was the day it was signed, and the United States is proud of its 50-year history in compliance with the Convention.

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Oooops...guess they stepped on their cr*nk with that one. :grin:

Of course, Nick Berg was a civilian...not in uniform, not part of a military, etc. So I guess he didn't fall under the Geneva Convention either.