Please recommend a good book on networking

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Originally Posted by NooNoo

Switches are dirt cheap, managed switches (switches with software in them to do something clever on your network) are more expensive.

OK imagine a water pipe, say half inch wide coming into your house. Now imagine every room is a bathroom, if everyone turns on the taps at the same time, what's going to happen? Much the same happens with the internet - you have a finite bandwidth that can be shared amongst all the computers. Like the taps, if only one tap is going you get the full flow to that tap, if you have two taps, the flow is halved. Now with the internet bandwidth, it tends to be first come first served - the computer downloading a large file will continue to hog all the bandwidth leaving any computer logging on to grab the odd bits left over. This can be "balanced" but in a domestic situation, yelling at the bandwidth hog user is more productive and a hellova lot less expensive!

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Awesome:thumbs: Thanks for the explanation, you also answered another question I had before I could ask it (bandwidth management). I asked that question because I thought that there would be an impact on performance by adding a switch to the router. As far as bandwidth management goes, I suppose that's why download managers with bandwidth limiters are a plus.

By the way which brand of routers do you typically recommend, from what I've seen the linksys routers seem to be decent and a little more techie orientated, someone recommended one linksys router to me because it had upgradeable open source firmware. I've noticed that the netgear routers seem a little simpler and beginner computer user orientated. I'm definitely concerned with performance, I'd like to make sure I can get the full speed out of my cable modem :devil: (the same speeds I get by having my computer connected directly to the modem), there will without a doubt be online gaming, video watching, music streaming, and downloading going on within my network:thumbs:

EDIT: I also should note that I'll be seeing if I can run Cat6e, so I can have a 1000mbps network. Why aren't there very many 10/100/1000Mbps routers?

Because 1000mbs is serious server on big pipe stuff. Domestic routers are designed to be cheap and replaceable. Eventually it will all be 1000mbs when Cat6e is cheaper than Cat5

What speed is your internet? How many large files do you move a day? Your internet is likely to be less than 10mbs and by large I mean gigabyte sized files.... cost benefit - what point in having gigabit network pipe if it's never going to be used? A bit like running 6" water pipe every where in your house when half inch is good enough.

As for routers

Netgear, Linksys, Dlink and Belkin offer the same thing, a router with a switch built in and wireless if you want it. They all have upgradeable firmware and if you ask a dozen techs, you will get a dozen answers, with the smart alec telling you to go Cisco.

If I am honest, I like Netgear, but I have installed all of them (and yah, including Cisco routers interfaced via serial port and command line configured).

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Originally Posted by NooNoo

Because 1000mbs is serious server on big pipe stuff. Domestic routers are designed to be cheap and replaceable. Eventually it will all be 1000mbs when Cat6e is cheaper than Cat5

What speed is your internet? How many large files do you move a day? Your internet is likely to be less than 10mbs and by large I mean gigabyte sized files.... cost benefit - what point in having gigabit network pipe if it's never going to be used? A bit like running 6" water pipe every where in your house when half inch is good enough.

As for routers

Netgear, Linksys, Dlink and Belkin offer the same thing, a router with a switch built in and wireless if you want it. They all have upgradeable firmware and if you ask a dozen techs, you will get a dozen answers, with the smart alec telling you to go Cisco.

If I am honest, I like Netgear, but I have installed all of them (and yah, including Cisco routers interfaced via serial port and command line configured).

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My internet speed is 16Mbps down and 2Mbps up, I don't upload large files everyday but when I do I'm usually doing backups worth no more than 15GBs of files, more common occurrences will usually be a small file here or a 2GB file there. I was concerned with the overall network congestion considering that for example, say someone is gaming, another person is web browsing while listening to music or gaming, and the third person is web browsing, and I have devices on the network that are access files of a networked hard drive, or streaming videos across it, would the slower network be able to hold up?

I'm concerned with the performance of the router, because oddly enough I noticed that I can saturate my 16Mbps connection with the modem connected directly to the computer, but with the modem connected to the router I get a slower max/stable speed.

The reason I had considered Cat6 cabling is because I figured I could get it at an affordable price from monoprice.com (I figured that all of the networking cable was about the same in terms of quality) but if 5e is the better choice I won't hesitate to make it.

I don't get the joke about the smart alec tech suggesting cisco, is it because linksys is a division of cisco?

Yes, linksys reference and of course Cisco is a very big name in professional routers.

If you have an older router, it probably runs at 10Mbs simply because 10mbs was the standard speed. Newer routers handle much higher speeds... but you should check that your new router can handle higher than 10mbs.

All the internet questions are academic, because they can only share 16mbs at the most... so that leaves you 84mbs (less protocol overheads) for your hard drive access... yup, the network holds up fine.

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Originally Posted by NooNoo

Yes, linksys reference and of course Cisco is a very big name in professional routers.

If you have an older router, it probably runs at 10Mbs simply because 10mbs was the standard speed. Newer routers handle much higher speeds... but you should check that your new router can handle higher than 10mbs.

All the internet questions are academic, because they can only share 16mbs at the most... so that leaves you 84mbs (less protocol overheads) for your hard drive access... yup, the network holds up fine.

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When you say 10Mbps you mean the WAN port correct?

I don't mean to be a pest, but I am actually learning about this stuff.
I don't understand the conversion, and how having about 84Mbps left will hold up under the aforementioned network. Maybe it's because I don't understand the underlying network, when they say 100Mbps network, does that mean 100Mbps going through that one router or do I get 100Mbps max going from computer A to B, and 100Mbps max going from C to D, or do I get 100Mbps max with computer A talking to B and C talking to D?

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Originally Posted by Loopy

I'm concerned with the performance of the router, because oddly enough I noticed that I can saturate my 16Mbps connection with the modem connected directly to the computer, but with the modem connected to the router I get a slower max/stable speed.

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How are you measuring that? That is a lot of internet bandwidth for one computer to saturate considering your d/l exceeds the capability or qos of many servers and would several simultaneous connections.

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Originally Posted by Loopy

(I figured that all of the networking cable was about the same in terms of quality)

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This partially true, at least in the sense that cable is manufactured to meet or exceed a specific industry specification. My suggestion would be to rely on one reputable source for all of your purchases. This way you can insure the cable and all of the other terminating components have similar specifications for impedance, etc. You are already at a disadvantage because you do not have the proper test equipment (which is not cheap) to test your install when your finished. But some of the most common problems that adversely affect performance such as crosstalk and insertion loss can be avoided by simply using matched components.

The reason why your latency increases when you use a router (seems like its slower than directly connected to a computer) is NAT, firewalls, wireless encryption, etc. Just about anything related to network security comes at the price of network latency and performance. Which can be a big deal to your average hardcore gamer.

You must also take into consideration that routers have hardware(ie. cpu). Some routers will perform better than others simply because of better hardware. I know several hardcore gamers who purchase static ip addresses from their isp so they do not have to rely on NAT. I also know some hardcore gamers who made their own router with a bare bones linux box using ip masquerade.

Anything I have posted here to enhance your research is probably irrelevant to the average user but you seem like you are trying to achieve an above average result.

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Originally Posted by Wizard of Wiring

How are you measuring that? That is a lot of internet bandwidth for one computer to saturate considering your d/l exceeds the capability or qos of many servers and would several simultaneous connections.



This partially true, at least in the sense that cable is manufactured to meet or exceed a specific industry specification. My suggestion would be to rely on one reputable source for all of your purchases. This way you can insure the cable and all of the other terminating components have similar specifications for impedance, etc. You are already at a disadvantage because you do not have the proper test equipment (which is not cheap) to test your install when your finished. But some of the most common problems that adversely affect performance such as crosstalk and insertion loss can be avoided by simply using matched components.

The reason why your latency increases when you use a router (seems like its slower than directly connected to a computer) is NAT, firewalls, wireless encryption, etc. Just about anything related to network security comes at the price of network latency and performance. Which can be a big deal to your average hardcore gamer.

You must also take into consideration that routers have hardware(ie. cpu). Some routers will perform better than others simply because of better hardware. I know several hardcore gamers who purchase static ip addresses from their isp so they do not have to rely on NAT. I also know some hardcore gamers who made their own router with a bare bones linux box using ip masquerade.

Anything I have posted here to enhance your research is probably irrelevant to the average user but you seem like you are trying to achieve an above average result.

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I tested using a download manager, I downloaded multiple large files using 2-4 connections for about 3 files, I downloaded from known fast servers, I'm pretty sure my results are reliable.

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Originally Posted by Loopy

Maybe it's because I don't understand the underlying network, when they say 100Mbps network, does that mean 100Mbps going through that one router or do I get 100Mbps max going from computer A to B, and 100Mbps max going from C to D, or do I get 100Mbps max with computer A talking to B and C talking to D?

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At its core it all comes down to frequency. Your question can not fully be answered without taking into consideration the type of router or hub being used. Your typical hub (I say hub because a router has a WAN port and LAN port, whereas most soho routers are a router+hub ie. 4 LAN ports) forwards all traffic across all network segments which would mean 100mbps across then entire network (or whatever is plugged into all of the ports). However a lot of networking equipment nowadays has "switched" ports. A switch is able to perform intelligent segment forwarding utilizing MAC addresses which essentially gives you 100mbps from A to the switch, 100mbps from B to the switch, etc.

Here is some simplified math to ponder over:
100BASE-T
100 = maximum theoretical trasfer, BASE = refers to the fact that each signal has its own frequency and full use of the cable (unlike cable and satellite which have several modulated frequencies on one cable), T = twisted pair cable, all of this is defined in some IEEE x standard

100mhz = 100 million bits/sec
Typical packet size = 1500 bytes (ie. Max MTU setting in router)
1 character = 8 bits = 1 byte (1500 * 8 = 12,000 bits)
Max length of 100Base-TX = 100 meters
12,000 bits / 100,000.000 bits/sec = 100 meters in .00012 seconds (this is where network latency comes into play with NAT or routers adding .x time to analyze and forward a packet etc.)

Since it all comes down to frequency on copper, bear in mind that the performance of frequency on copper can be affected by several things (ie temperature, composition of materials, kinks in the wire, electromagnetic interference, etc.)

To keep things in perspective I was also going to mention that if I ping Google it takes 25ms

From above, .00012 seconds = .12ms

Either way
25-.12 = 24.88ms (.12/25 = .48%)
or
.025 - .00012 = .02488 (.00012/.025 = .48%)

In essence 99.52% of my internet latency is not in my control!

Hehe, I keep pressing submit before finishing my thought. Stupid me. Anyway compare the ms from a ping with a direct connection and then connected to your router and you will get an idea of how much impact your router has by following the math example I just outlined.

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Originally Posted by Loopy

When you say 10Mbps you mean the WAN port correct?

I don't mean to be a pest, but I am actually learning about this stuff.
I don't understand the conversion, and how having about 84Mbps left will hold up under the aforementioned network. Maybe it's because I don't understand the underlying network, when they say 100Mbps network, does that mean 100Mbps going through that one router or do I get 100Mbps max going from computer A to B, and 100Mbps max going from C to D, or do I get 100Mbps max with computer A talking to B and C talking to D?

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OK to add to the math that Wizard put you through, you need to know this as well.

megabits per second is not the same as MegaBytes per second. A byte is 8 bits so you divide your megabits by 8 to arrive at MegaBytes (note the caps).

So to your first question 10mbs is usually the full capacity of an older router's wan port. So what make/model is the router, let's get some real figures from the specs.

Now to your second question.... Think of a physical footbridge. Now think of a physical footbridge between each of your computers and the router. Your footbridges are capable of holding the WEIGHT of a 100 people at any one time, BUT at any one time you people are carrying bags, some people are skinny, some people are fat. This means you don't get a nice even distribution of people crossing the footbridges. Add to that, occasionally two people will collide and if they do that, they have to start all over again.

Now whether those footbridges all together can carry the weight of 100 people, or whether each footbridge carries the weight of 100 people is depends on what is in your router. If if the ports are switched, then each bridge is capable of the weight of 100 people, if the ports are a hub, then the weight of 100 people is shared across all the bridges.

Post your router make and model... let's do the real math!

With that in mind download and watch this movie

direct link to download

It will give you a good idea about what is happening at the speed of light in your cables!

I'm going to watch the movie now, but my router is a Netgear WGR614v6

I saw the movie, it was very very cool, I'll never look at the internet the same way. Noo Noo, what happens if the springboard on the firewall breaks? lol.

This router has McAfee built in... it may explain the apparent slowness. Now you have seen the movie, you understand that every packet is examined and the more things that have to examine it, the slower the router is going to be.

Having said that according to your routers manual it will self configure when connected to a modem. If the modem port and/or the cable is only rated at 10mbs then the router will only receive at best 10mbs.

So the big question is, when you directly connect the modem to your pc, do you use the same cable as the one that plugs into the router, or do you use a usb interface or what?

If you just unplug the cable from the router and put it in your computer, then the speed drop is about the router processing each packet through McAfee and NAT (take a look at Appendix B of your router manual - it has a pretty good overview of networking and these terms.)

If you use a USB cable or different ethernet cable, then replace the cable between the router and the modem, it may only be 10mbs capable.