Engineer - losing credibility?

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Nicholas 'Raijen' Furniss:
I've seen the term "Systems engineer" and "Software Engineer" used as well. Although i preform a similar function to "System Engineers" I wouldn't go so far as to call myself one. To me an engineer implies either

A) Far more experience than I have :)
B) A degree from a university/College.

I fit neither category, and thus wouldn't go so far as to call myself an engineer.

My 2c

---

That's not entirely true. I have one friend who is now an electrical engineer, but his degree is in physics. He has no educational background in engineering, yet designs circuits for Tripp Lite.

I have another friend who is an electrical engineer who has no college education, save perhaps for a class or two at the local junior/community college (and probably not EE-related).

Both worked their way up through the ranks starting as glorified repairmen, but neither can be said to be anything other than engineers in what they do now. It's not just about the degree. :)

Oh, and I totally agree that the word "engineer" is overused these days. Not only with respect to janitors, etc., but even in the case of Software Engineers, I think the term is abused. I know that programmers work very hard and are often very smart, but you don't see suspension bridges exploding every few months, do you? Computer science is way to young to be tossing around words like "engineer" just yet.

It seems like everything is being referred to as engineering nowadays. I've even heard of a janitor as being called a custodial engineer. Is this good or bad? I don't think it's either one. A lot of it has to do with the fact that the title "engineer" implies a lot of knowledge in a particular area. It's more to help someone feel better about there job not to belittle the people that have a real degree as an engineer.
As for whether or not certificates make you a better tech. No they don't. It only tells me you've taken a basic test in the subject and passed. If you have a few years of hands-on experience in the field, I would hire you over a paper tech anyday. A cert doesn't get you a job. Experience does. It's unfortunate that a lot of people won't even look at someone without a cert as I've already read in this forum. Some people don't have the resources to get the certs.

I'll just stick to guru then.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Hippie:
As for whether or not certificates make you a better tech. No they don't. It only tells me you've taken a basic test in the subject and passed. If you have a few years of hands-on experience in the field, I would hire you over a paper tech anyday. A cert doesn't get you a job. Experience does. It's unfortunate that a lot of people won't even look at someone without a cert as I've already read in this forum. Some people don't have the resources to get the certs.

---

I had to go through 4 years of internship hands-on experience before i could apply for certification to be called an engineer. I didn't know that you could be certified w/o experience.

it really depends on the certification you go for. microsoft network certifications around my area go for virtually nothing. myself, i think that 'engineer' implies the creation of something. an electrical engineer creates electronics. an electrician works on/repairs electronics. the same goes for mechanical engineer/mechanic(non-auto related obviously). however, as far as the title of engineer goes, i think that at least a college degree should be required to be titled an engineer. so someone majored in electronics engineering that repairs circuit boards would be considered an electrical engineer even though he does not create or engineer electrical equipment.

It seems that a common thought here is how the employer views the term, i.e. college or university based use of the term. I know that when I go looking for an engineer, I look for the correct alphabet soup behind his name, that indicates education. I also look for references in the industry, and most likley they are of equal or more important value. Strong personal recommendation carries even more weight, when coming from someone that has had cause to use the services of said engineer. Course I don't look for engineers that often for the purpose of employing them, more likely to THANK them for the POS that I just technicioned my way thru. I know, bad grammer.

It seems like a lot of people are thinking that a four year bachelors degree is better than four years as a tech. I was up for a job at our local Public Power company to do what I do now (repair computers/printers). I got beat out by someone who had 6 months of computer experience and a bachelors degree. It didn't seem to matter that he was a political science major. He had the degree, I didn't. End of story. Besides the fact that a four year degree in computer science is going to be way behind the times when you finally get the degree (by at least a year behind.) Colleges can't teach current technology and OS's because they have to prepare the curriculum before they teach it. Never mind the fact you have to take classes that don't even pertain to the subject matter. I had to take four semesters of English, two semesters of Sociology, an Art class, and others in the two years I spent at college. Number of semesters for my major: 4. All the while I'm paying to learn that there is an African tribe where the women and men have their roles reversed. I ran out of money and never looked back. After my two years studying to be a computer engineer, I had learned zip. A four year degree amounts to nothing as far as computers are concerned, unless your talking programming. There are obviously some things that colleges can teach you. Computers is not one of them. That is a hands on job.

I would like to apologize for the wording of my last post. I didn't mean to come across as a bitter, angry, sour grapes kind of tech. I like my current job. It's just the whole idea of having to get a certificate to say that you're good at what you do just seems....ahrrgh!!!

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Hippie:
It seems like a lot of people are thinking that a four year bachelors degree is better than four years as a tech. I was up for a job at our local Public Power company to do what I do now (repair computers/printers). I got beat out by someone who had 6 months of computer experience and a bachelors degree. It didn't seem to matter that he was a political science major. He had the degree, I didn't. End of story. -------
Never mind the fact you have to take classes that don't even pertain to the subject matter. I had to take four semesters of English, two semesters of Sociology, an Art class, and others in the two years I spent at college. Number of semesters for my major: 4. -----All the while I'm paying to learn that there is an African tribe where the women and men have their roles reversed. After my two years studying to be a computer engineer, I had learned zip.

---

I agree. I had somme college and was planning on getting a degree. But why take courses like English Comp, Social Sciences, and Algebra (not to mention Speech 101, Alternative Lifestyles 200 and Underwater Basket Weaving)to learn about computers or whatever? I had all that crap in high school. Instead I went the MCSE route. It was 9 months and actually pertained to the job. This was not a boot camp either. My reasoning was that an MCSE was as good in most employers eyes as a 4 Year degree. Plus I still get to be called an Enginerd...I mean Engineer.

:)

Legislating language is wrong; period.

In who's hands to they plan on putting the responsibility of determining if someone is an "engineer"?

Math is really simple, the more rights you give away the fewer you have.

Where I work they call us 'Field Service Engineers' but I think its a thing that my employer does to charge higher rates. I have certs from Dell, C*mpaq, HP etc...but I also have an Associates..no one else where I work has a degree....so I really used that in my salary negotiation. Does it make me a better tech? No not really...to me its kinda like that A+ thing...I dont have one of those...but I dont see the point in that...perhaps if you are a novice...but I learned about computers from the military, and then got cert from the manufacturers..so what is the point in getting an A+?!?!

Sorry kinda got off topic. :eek:

It just so happens I'm making a transition in jobs. Reading most of your posts here made me do some soul searching as to what my actual roll is in the scheme of things. I think that, as a couple have pointed out, we tend to think too deeply about trivial points. From there a tendancy to polarize the subject, then mass hysteria sets in. As Pop-Eye always said, "I am what I am, and that's what I am!"

:p

My income doubled the year after I finished my masters. The interesting thing is, the degree is in Human Studies--the study of our relationships with self, other, the environment, and the transcendent--nothing whatsoever to do with being a self-employed on site computer tech (on the surface anyway). But everything connects to everything. I believe the reason my income went up was precisely because of my degree work (yes, even my studies of shamanism around the world, and the extensive journals of poetry I wrote for an independent study). Specifically, I believe my income went up because my communication skills improved with my education. I am sold on the relevance of a good liberal arts education. A well-rounded, person with good communication skills will always be able to find a way to fit her/his skills to the marketplace....

Quote:

---

Originally posted by SuperMatty:
I would never call someone who can 'fix a pc' a computer engineer. It's completely different, and a complete disgrace to the engineering community when someone refers to a technician as a computer engineer.[/B]

---

To the contrary, it may also be an insult as a technician to be refered to as an engineer.

Maybe today was a bad day to bring this up. A computer was brought to us for repair today, after a so called "engineer", employed by a large hospital, couldn't diagnose a bad frigin power switch. A tech had it fixed in 15 minutes. The "engineer had it for 2 months.

Earlier this month we were callled in to diagnose problems with a new network. A "Network Engineer" had set it all up, but couldn't figure out why a couple of computers weren't connecting, all that was wrong was a couple of jacks were punched down incorrectly.

I have no problem with someone being called an engineer. But what I want is someone who can actually solve the problem, no matter their title.

We are a small computer and consulting firm. If I were currently hiring, of the 6 people at the top of my list, only 2 have any cert's at all. We, and hopefully our customers, are interested in people who can fix the problems, in the most efficient possible way. Although I always encourage education, title is not a good measurement of knowledge, and knowledge is gained by experience.

I find it funny when a organization has to use legislation to protect the quality of their reputation. I think the self regulating guilds like Doctors, Lawyers and Engineers has gotten out of hand. It is not like anyone is going to confuse a Electrical Engineer with a Sanataion Engineer, Why the heavy duty legislation to back it up? Who deterimins what is enough education or skills to be a Engineer? Who determins when a Engineer has done something wrong and needs to be punished? Who determins what jobs require a Engineer to do them? The Engineer guild thats who. A organization formed ages ago that has one huge monopoly. If you strip off all the politics what is a Engineer? If you answer someone who designs something then you could call me one. I am a CNE in Canada (love those laws) and Certified Novell Engineer in the rest of the world. I design Novell Networks from scratch. I take the Novell operating system (simular to the basic building materials a Engineer uses), I know its strengths and weaknesses, and I design a large network out of it. If the Network design should fail I am financially responsible for it. I don't have a large union backing me to deterim if I made a big mistake or a not responsible big mistake. I do not have a large Union to provide me with insurance to cover my butt if I am found liable.

anyway I ramble on, we need Engineers, just do we need Engineers to have a monopoly? :confused:

Winged 1

let me clarify a bit, i am not for the legislation, i just was citing my personal opinion. i just disagree with those people who call themselves sanitation engineers et al.
but regarding college courses, many colleges are going to a co-op program where students actually work in their field for almost half their college time. that counts for a lot more than they could ever teach you in a classroom. I know that if I had to choose between a guy with a degree but no experience and a guy with experience but no degree id go for experience.

as for engineer v. technician, we're really talking semantics again. not that i really care, its just that a job title really doesnt change the quality of a person's work.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Winged One:
I find it funny when a organization has to use legislation to protect the quality of their reputation. I think the self regulating guilds like Doctors, Lawyers and Engineers has gotten out of hand. It is not like anyone is going to confuse a Electrical Engineer with a Sanataion Engineer, Why the heavy duty legislation to back it up? Who deterimins what is enough education or skills to be a Engineer? Who determins when a Engineer has done something wrong and needs to be punished? Who determins what jobs require a Engineer to do them? The Engineer guild thats who. A organization formed ages ago that has one huge monopoly. If you strip off all the politics what is a Engineer? If you answer someone who designs something then you could call me one. I am a CNE in Canada (love those laws) and Certified Novell Engineer in the rest of the world. I design Novell Networks from scratch. I take the Novell operating system (simular to the basic building materials a Engineer uses), I know its strengths and weaknesses, and I design a large network out of it. If the Network design should fail I am financially responsible for it. I don't have a large union backing me to deterim if I made a big mistake or a not responsible big mistake. I do not have a large Union to provide me with insurance to cover my butt if I am found liable.

anyway I ramble on, we need Engineers, just do we need Engineers to have a monopoly? :confused:

Winged 1

---

Hmmm. Sounds like engineers has lost the credibility not because the word itself is abused, but the fact that they are monopolistic, politicians in a comfy union, and are a bunch people that you laugh at. I didn't consider myself being funny. So, I guess that makes me a comedian since I am an engineer, and I guess doctors and lawyers are comedians too. Okay then. Now the next time somebody gets hurt in an accident, be sure to yell "Somebody get a comedian, quickly!" "Oh, they have hired a comedian to sue us. We better settle this out of court right away."

I agree...janitor, now a toilet engineer? Come on...what is up with this. Wonder how it makes the REAL engineers of the world feel...would PI$$ me off...

Quote:

---

Originally posted by NakedMessiah:
Hmmm. Sounds like engineers has lost the credibility not because the word itself is abused, but the fact that they are monopolistic, politicians in a comfy union, and are a bunch people that you laugh at. I didn't consider myself being funny. So, I guess that makes me a comedian since I am an engineer, and I guess doctors and lawyers are comedians too. Okay then. Now the next time somebody gets hurt in an accident, be sure to yell "Somebody get a comedian, quickly!" "Oh, they have hired a comedian to sue us. We better settle this out of court right away."

---

:D

Since I brew beer at home, does that make me a Master Brewer? Depends on how many I had and shared with friends. :eek:

Quote:

---

Originally posted by smiddy98:
:D

Since I brew beer at home, does that make me a Master Brewer? Depends on how many I had and shared with friends. :eek:

---

Hey, whatever makes you happy while you are at home is fine with me.