Bush going overboard?

Bracius, suggest you read my post at the top of page 3... you will find that I was just stirring it.

I have no real opinion either way in politics or countries or anything like that, because at the end of the day you still have to live.

Yes I could get upset about all the grievous things that have happened to me an my country. I just don't. Implying I was throwing salt in the wound was unjust, especially as we have family friends who worked in wtc.

All I am saying is there are more than one opinion and much of it is shaped by the media - as others were quick to point out that my comments where shaped by the media.

If ya wanna get into a he said /she said match - go to Jerusalem or Indonesia or the Balkans or other strife torn region and see how bad it can really get and just how hopeless it seems to any rational person. Would throwing the collective American weight around help there? Would taking out the faction leaders help? No. You just breed martyrs. For all the US help in Israel has there been any real improvement in the death rates? The Israelis themselves voted in the hardest line leader they had in years. The response from Palestine? More violence.

Violence begets violence. Talking it up just charges the patriotic souls who think they are making a difference by killing someone else.

Its very sad, I have no answers, but history has shown that stomping on people doesn't work or is extremely costly to maintain as the USSR found out.

Edited by Bracius

[quote]Originally posted by ßracius:
<strong>

Noo Noo, cogitate on what you said in both post and you might understand why you would and still are pissing people off.</strong><hr></blockquote>

my intention is not to piss people off, but to highlight that there is other points of view mostly generated by YOUR media. If you are getting pissed at my words, then maybe you need to look the problem a little more deeply.

Or are you saying you get pissed off because I suggest that sabre rattling is not the way to go here?

Perhaps you could cogitate yourself on solutions or at least accept there is more than one point of view and culture in this world.

I for one am not arrogant enough to think that one person or faction is correct. My way or the highway is not one of my maxims. I may not understand why people live as they do, but I certainly don't believe its wrong just because they don't live as I do, with my beliefs and my way of doing things.

Edited by Bracius

[quote]Originally posted by ßracius:
<strong>

How is insulting Americans and then turning around and saying that you were only trying to stur things up not intentionally pissing people off?!?!?

"Or are you saying you get pissed off because I suggest that sabre rattling is not the way to go here?" Nope, didn't bother me. I can understand politics just fine.</strong><hr></blockquote>

mmm never done debating? Taking an opposing view just to see where it goes? If you get pissed at someone presenting a different point of view to yours then you should perhaps try a debating society and work out how to accept others points of view without having to agree with them or making you angry.

I admitted to stirring it because I could see this was rapidly gonna get personal, Cleetus and one or two others are about the only one here with the background to argue many of these points intelligently.

[quote]Originally posted by ßracius:
<strong>

You weren't debating intelligently. You're insulting blindly and trying to cover.

Noo Noo, you are trying to reverse role me. You came up with the slandering and when I call you on it you try and call a xenophobe.
I was not getting pissed because of your different view. You didn't have a view. You were getting belligerent towards Americans.</strong><hr></blockquote>


In your opinion
Mine is different.
Lets leave it at that shall we?

Would you 2 knock it off? Can't we just have a political discussion with out things getting personal? Obviously not...

[quote]Originally posted by NooNoo:
<strong>


In your opinion
Mine is different.
Lets leave it at that shall we?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Please do, thats how wars start. :)

I think its always good to see how we're looked at form the outside. Even if its bad.

Ok, I'm an American, and I think Bush is a friggin retard.

George W. Bush is the William Shatner of politics.

The man is not a leader. He bought his way into the White House. He's ridden the coat-tails of his father. I, for one, and scared that he is the President right now.

I find it funny how blind people can be and how they just absorb all of the politic propoganda that is force fed to them.

[quote]Originally posted by opiate:
<strong>Would you 2 knock it off? Can't we just have a political discussion with out things getting personal? Obviously not...</strong><hr></blockquote>

I am sorry Opiate, it was a valid topic and I put up some valid points that are being seen around the world. I really didn't want it to get personal at all as explained in my earlier posts. I would be more than happy to delete all my posts should you wish. Bracius would you be kind enough to delete the quotes then it can all disappear?

[quote]Originally posted by NooNoo:
<strong>

I am sorry Opiate, it was a valid topic and I put up some valid points that are being seen around the world. I really didn't want it to get personal at all as explained in my earlier posts. I would be more than happy to delete all my posts should you wish. Bracius would you be kind enough to delete the quotes then it can all disappear?</strong><hr></blockquote>


NooNoo! :D

I for one am happy to find out how our international "friends" view us. It is important and valid.

I would say more important because we all know that the American media stopped reporting the News decades ago.

You'll find out more about what America is doing by reading the newspapers of other countries.

[quote]Originally posted by Capt. O:
<strong>I for one am happy to find out how our international "friends" view us. It is important and valid.

I would say more important because we all know that the American media stopped reporting the News decades ago.

You'll find out more about what America is doing by reading the newspapers of other countries.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Hey thanks for the tip!

I cannot STAND the BUSH BASHING. I give you all ONE chance to PROVE with DATA that Bush has the IQ of a RETARD!

But you CANT. You just call him a retard because you dont agree with his political views or his methods. Thats IT! Theres no other reason. You don't like his OPINIONS and his BELIEFS so you call him a RETARD!

[quote]Originally posted by gxavier:
<strong>I cannot STAND the BUSH BASHING. I give you all ONE chance to PROVE with DATA that Bush has the IQ of a RETARD!

But you CANT. You just call him a retard because you dont agree with his political views or his methods. Thats IT! Theres no other reason. You don't like his OPINIONS and his BELIEFS so you call him a RETARD!</strong><hr></blockquote>

Well I have some pretty good evidence that people who post relatively dumb rants support him...

And its funny. If Gore was elected president, then the blind republicans would be calling him a FRIGGIN RETARD as well!

You people...you can't even respect each others political views, so you resort to mudslinging.

Ive never called Clinton a "friggin retard" even though I am somewhat Republican. NEVER. I respected him as a leader, even though he doesn't support all my views. I dont BASH him in public forums with no facts to support it.

I suggest you all do the same. He is our PRESIDENT, and we are at WAR.

[quote]Originally posted by gxavier:
<strong>I cannot STAND the BUSH BASHING. I give you all ONE chance to PROVE with DATA that Bush has the IQ of a RETARD!

But you CANT. You just call him a retard because you dont agree with his political views or his methods. Thats IT! Theres no other reason. You don't like his OPINIONS and his BELIEFS so you call him a RETARD!</strong><hr></blockquote>


Yeah, you got me there.

It couldn't be because I've had the opportunity to watch him on the television, read about him in the press, or listen to him on the radio? I've obviously never had the opportunity to read about his past "accomplishments".

You're right, I guess I have no basis to think the man has the mental capacity of a monkey. What was I thinking.

Heaven forbid that I am college educated person, who can form opinions based on the actions and abilities of other people. (key word, opinons)

[quote]Originally posted by Wayward Clam:
<strong>

Well I have some pretty good evidence that people who post relatively dumb rants support him...</strong><hr></blockquote>


Whose doing the ranting? Im not the one here going back and forth. I believe that was NooNoo and Bracius.

Just because I support the President of the United States of America, doesn't make me an idiot.

[quote]Originally posted by gxavier:
<strong> I dont BASH him in public forums with no facts to support it. </strong><hr></blockquote>

Be thankful that we do have the right to publicly bash our leaders...

I for one, am very proud of that right.

You still can't support the accusation that he is dumber than a monkey. You just say you can.

Perhaps I've missed it in the Media, but did Congress declare war?

If not, then, we aren't really at war. I will admit, that I've stopped reading the newspaper and watching the news on television, so I might have missed Congress' declaration.

[quote]Originally posted by gxavier:
<strong>Just because I support the President of the United States of America, doesn't make me an idiot.</strong><hr></blockquote>

The defense rests, your honour.

[quote]Originally posted by gxavier:
<strong>You still can't support the accusation that he is dumber than a monkey. You just say you can.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I wonder if he would submit to a clinical analysis? I'm sure I could find a monkey...

You see, I'm an Independant. Which means I don't religiously follow the dogma or propoganda of any one faction.

I take in all of the information and make my decisions accordingly.

Now your just being silly.

I for one respect everyone, regardless. You people that resort to namecalling are the ones that ultimately start wars. And isn't that what the democratic party is against?

Who said I was a Democrat?

For that matter, who said I was an American at all?

I think your entire political system is fubared. Dubya is merely a small symptom of the greater problem. You saying you support him is akin to saying you support a particular festering boil as being better than another particular festering boil, when in actual fact, neither one of them is ever going to accomplish anything for the creature they are attached to.

[quote]Originally posted by Wayward Clam:
<strong>Who said I was a Democrat?

For that matter, who said I was an American at all?

I think your entire political system is fubared. Dubya is merely a small symptom of the greater problem. You saying you support him is akin to saying you support a particular festering boil as being better than another particular festering boil, when in actual fact, neither one of them is ever going to accomplish anything for the creature they are attached to.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Interesting point of view, though an odd analogy.

[quote]Originally posted by gxavier:
[QB]Well said Opiate. I dont see Americans talking **** about Tony Blair or Geoff Galop or whoever, because the fact is, we don't know that much about them, or the political system in their respective countries.
QB]<hr></blockquote>

I think the fact that we don't know much about other countries political systems is a result of egocentrism.

Why shouldn't we educate ourselves about the entire world and not just our own "backyard"?

How can we, as a people, blindly believe in our superiority without knowing how or why? Do we just believe everything that the media and our textbooks teach us? Please, I can find thousands of incorrect facts about American and Western Civilization history in text books that are incorrect or skewed. And don't get me started on the media...

1) Opinion: There is very little information based on objective fact anywhere in this entire topic.

2) Opinion: I can't see one word of insult in anything NooNoo posted. She did state that 98% of all Americans couldn't even name the British Prime Minister--I think she's being far too generous....We Americans are a very complacent, self-centered society, and enormously ignorant concerning international affairs. Just because you're one of the few who may know something...don't assume all your neighbors do as well....ever listen to talk radio? Case closed.

3) Opinion: I too believe GWB to be of below average intelligence when compared to other top businessmen and political leaders....this is an opinion derived from listening very carefully on those occasions when he attempts to speak off the cuff rather than from a prepared speech--the one exception being that one clever remark to the crowd at ground zero....that being said, no, I do not believe most of us would be calling Al Gore a retard if he was in office...very few question his intelligence--what we question about him is where the hell was he when they handed out personalities????

4) Opinion: Most of the world knows far more about U.S. policies and government than the vast majority of Americans know about the rest of the world. This is wrong. This is also well known by our neighbors around the world and tends to reveal us for the self-involved arse's that we are--it's unfortunate but not surprising that so many do not like us. (and I am not talking about the terrorists, etc. That is an entirely different class of hating America)

O.K. no more opinions. Time for official duties...

If I read one more personal attack toward anyone participating in this discussion that reply will be deleted without comment. If I come back and find several, the topic is dead. Got it?

[quote]Originally posted by Capt. O:
<strong>

I think the fact that we don't know much about other countries political systems is a result of egocentrism.

Why shouldn't we educate ourselves about the entire world and not just our own "backyard"?

How can we, as a people, blindly believe in our superiority without knowing how or why? Do we just believe everything that the media and our textbooks teach us? Please, I can find thousands of incorrect facts about American and Western Civilization history in text books that are incorrect or skewed. And don't get me started on the media...</strong><hr></blockquote>

Actually tell me about the media

[quote]Originally posted by Capt. O:
<strong>

I think the fact that we don't know much about other countries political systems is a result of egocentrism.

Why shouldn't we educate ourselves about the entire world and not just our own "backyard"?

How can we, as a people, blindly believe in our superiority without knowing how or why? Do we just believe everything that the media and our textbooks teach us? Please, I can find thousands of incorrect facts about American and Western Civilization history in text books that are incorrect or skewed. And don't get me started on the media...</strong><hr></blockquote>

Oh, but I really think you SHOULD get started on the media... they are the real reason politics are so screwed up these days! I don't mean that Joe Front Line Reporter is corrupt, but there are reasons why some things convenient for certain businesses and politicians dominate the media and some things inconvenient for them get quietly ignored.

And it's not a problem restricted to the states--everywhere there is information being transferred, information is being manipulated, manufactured, and suppressed as well... even here at Windrivers.

If you see me get ticked off in one of these flame wars, its because I can't stand the idea of the truth going unheard--or much worse, untruth being masqueraded around in its place.

[quote]Originally posted by Wayward Clam:
<strong>

Oh, but I really think you SHOULD get started on the media... they are the real reason politics are so screwed up these days! I don't mean that Joe Front Line Reporter is corrupt, but there are reasons why some things convenient for certain businesses and politicians dominate the media and some things inconvenient for them get quietly ignored.

And it's not a problem restricted to the states--everywhere there is information being transferred, information is being manipulated, manufactured, and suppressed as well... even here at Windrivers.

If you see me get ticked off in one of these flame wars, its because I can't stand the idea of the truth going unheard--or much worse, untruth being masqueraded around in its place.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Amen to that!

Clammy, I never knew that we had so much in common.

[quote]Originally posted by Sowulo:
<strong>1) Opinion: There is very little information based on objective fact anywhere in this entire topic.

2) Opinion: I can't see one word of insult in anything NooNoo posted. She did state that 98% of all Americans couldn't even name the British Prime Minister--I think she's being far too generous....We Americans are a very complacent, self-centered society, and enormously ignorant concerning international affairs. Just because you're one of the few who may know something...don't assume all your neighbors do as well....ever listen to talk radio? Case closed.

3) Opinion: I too believe GWB to be of below average intelligence when compared to other top businessmen and political leaders....this is an opinion derived from listening very carefully on those occasions when he attempts to speak off the cuff rather than from a prepared speech--the one exception being that one clever remark to the crowd at ground zero....that being said, no, I do not believe most of us would be calling Al Gore a retard if he was in office...very few question his intelligence--what we question about him is where the hell was he when they handed out personalities????

4) Opinion: Most of the world knows far more about U.S. policies and government than the vast majority of Americans know about the rest of the world. This is wrong. This is also well known by our neighbors around the world and tends to reveal us for the self-involved arse's that we are--it's unfortunate but not surprising that so many do not like us. (and I am not talking about the terrorists, etc. That is an entirely different class of hating America)

O.K. no more opinions. Time for official duties...

If I read one more personal attack toward anyone participating in this discussion that reply will be deleted without comment. If I come back and find several, the topic is dead. Got it?</strong><hr></blockquote>

And God spoke... :rolleyes:

The reason Americans don't know who runs England or Australia is because those countries mean very little to us on a daily basis. That doesn't make us bad or conceited...it is just a fact of life. All of those countries admire America and want to live like Americans but they still point to all of our faults just the same. Believe me, I have been around the world a couple of different times, to lots of different countries and they all love our freedoms and ability to do what we want. They want to dress like us, drive cars like us, live in a nice house like us...but sadly, their economies and political structures do not allow this.
Also, we seem to value life more than most of the world. Wiping out thousands of innocent people in a sneak attack doesn't seem to effect the third-world as that number dies everyday due to malnutrition and disease.
If you want to consider us as arrogant, that's fine with me...we have earned everything that we have.
And, stop putting down our President! He is doing a super job under less than ideal circumstances. Yes, he stumbles over his words sometimes but he is not a buffoon...he is a human being.

[quote]Originally posted by opiate:
<strong>

And God spoke... :rolleyes: </strong><hr></blockquote>

Relax. I carefully separated my opinions from my responsibilities as Mod. The rules are: NO FLAMING. I don't play god, I enforce the rules.


(If I was god, I'd just zap everyone with a little more 'peace' attitude and we could put an end to all the stupid, useless fighting.....)

[quote]Originally posted by gxavier:
<strong>I cannot STAND the BUSH BASHING. I give you all ONE chance to PROVE with DATA that Bush has the IQ of a RETARD!

But you CANT. You just call him a retard because you dont agree with his political views or his methods. Thats IT! Theres no other reason. You don't like his OPINIONS and his BELIEFS so you call him a RETARD!</strong><hr></blockquote>

Actually I have just spent an hour looking for evidence, I agree, there is no way a man who managed to get out from under so many questionable deeds can be called a retard. Thank you for giving me a reason to read up on his life and works. As I said before politics does not equate to altruism.

[quote]Originally posted by Capt. O:
<strong>Perhaps I've missed it in the Media, but did Congress declare war?

If not, then, we aren't really at war. I will admit, that I've stopped reading the newspaper and watching the news on television, so I might have missed Congress' declaration.</strong><hr></blockquote>

If I remember right, "war" has not been officialy declared since WWII. ALl of the presidents since that time, both Reb and Dem, have spread their constitutional powers further and further. We as citizens have helped the perception of the president as all powerful to the point that he only has to have order the troops and they can go. The act of "Declaring War" in America is as dead as Gary Condits political career.

It is kind of sad, but if you look at how the constitution was framed, the president was suppossed to only be a figure head that signed the bill. The real power was to be held by congress, and guess what, it still is. We just feel the need to blame one person, but it is the congress the passes budgets, the congress that ok's the judges and the presidential staff, the congress that passes and writes the laws.

Then you look at the staff the Bush has surrounded himself with and he himself verified that he delegates everything to them. Notice how he used this tactic to get out of any wrong doing with Enron.

Bush is also tied to many different intrest groups from NRA to Energy firms, from the various churches to the armed forces. He is being pulled in many directions while his staff is doing all the real work.

Now, tie all of this with the fact that he doesn't write his own speeches with the terrible results he had when doing speeches on the fly. Throw in a dab of more vacation time than anyone else in the freeworld, and yes I come up with the opinion that he might be a puppet.

Please do not call me unamerican, uninformed, or whatever else might be thought up in a knee jerk response. Personally I think by searching for the perfect American president, the American people have pushed away any who might really be competent enough to do the job.

Don't even get me started on Special Interest Groups....

[quote]Originally posted by NooNoo:
<strong>

Actually I have just spent an hour looking for evidence, I agree, there is no way a man who managed to get out from under so many questionable deeds can be called a retard. Thank you for giving me a reason to read up on his life and works. As I said before politics does not equate to altruism.</strong><hr></blockquote>


I'm sure you can pay someone to figure out plausible excuses.... :)

on a tangent....

Why do we still have an Electoral College? Isn't it about time that we dismantled it?