opinions please

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June 26th, 2002, 07:07 PM
KINGofBLEH

To respond to some of the attacks on CNN, this is a red herring. My information comes from the Contemporary World Politics Quarterly, several international news periodicals, and 4 years of study in college. Keep in mind that the situation in the middle east is not about the Jews or Arabs, it is an offshoot of Cold War politics fueled by religious and political overtones. The reality is that the borders we see in the middle east (and other parts of the world, i.e. Afghanistan) were imposed by the imperial and western powers that have occupied those areas throughout the past two millenia. As WWII drew to a close, Churchill met with his closest advisors to decide how to divide the middle east and north Africa. At one point (legend has it), he actually took a pencil and started drawing borders on the blank map of the area. The borders we see today are arbitrary and only serve to make the conflicts in the area worse.

Furthermore, CNN and the rest of the news media are not controlled by the Jews. They are controlled by Americans. Of course there will always be bias in favor of American ideals, but the fact that America has many news organizations and Freedom of the Press gives them a leg up on 90% of the rest of the world. I wonder how many Arab newspapers are printed in the middle east that are critical of Yasser Arafat or Saddam Hussein. Ummmmm the answer would be.....zero.

ilovetheusers, a clarification please. I am not sure what you are referring to when you say that Israel fought a war against the British. If you are referring to the skirmishes between British troops and the followers of David ben Gurion (sp?), that really was not a war. The British basically retreated back into the Sinai to make sure they had enough forces to defend the Suez Canal.
ilovetheusers, I am not sure what you are referring to when you say that Israel fought a war against the British. If you are referring to the skirmishes between British troops and the followers of David ben Gurion (sp?), that really was not a war. The British basically retreated back into the Sinai to make sure they had enough forces to defend the Suez Canal.
June 26th, 2002, 07:15 PM
KINGofBLEH

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by egypshn:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />From: ilovetheusers:
And don’t hand us that line about how he is not a part of Hamas. I for one do not doubt for a moment that he is the head of the organization. It’s the same thing as Northern Ireland – the leaders state they have no control over the terrorists – it’s a damn lie and we all know it.

<hr /></blockquote>You have the guts to aske me where I obtain my information from????? That was the most ludricrous statement I have seen yet. No offense but you need to read up on your "current affairs".

Actually the fact that you have not seen footage of dead citizens in Israel is a damn lie! You and I both know it.

Please don't talk about granting the people of Afghanistan freedom by knocking out the Taliban. It's a bunch of sh*t and you know nothing about the country or what goes on there.

For the record, my information is obtained first hand through people who live in those countries unlike yours obtained through one-sided media anchorman/woman who simply say what benefits the network as opposed to saying the truth.

I also have friends in the military who fill me in on what goes on in the shadows.

I am going to suggest we end this forum on a pleasant note. Their were many valid and strong opinions given however we may as well be Israel and Palestine, I don't think either side is going to convince the other of their opinion. It was nice to chat with all of you.<hr /></blockquote>Egypshn, anyone has the right to question your sources of information regardless of what information they may have. So far we have only heard you make vague referrences to "people who live in those countries" and "friends in the military". Anyone can come in here and make those claims. I have studied under two Fulbright scholars who spent over 30 years combined in the area. I also spend time every day reading publications and newspaper articles written mainly by Arabic reporters. I am not saying I am the "expert" on the subject. Of course, nothing can take the place of personal experience. But please don't be offended when someone questions your sources unless you are willing to back up your claims with cold, hard evidence.
June 26th, 2002, 07:27 PM
KINGofBLEH

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by egypshn:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Kingof Bleh: My own stance on this is simply that if Israel no longer has a democratic "superpower" ally, they're dead. Period. It may not be the goal of all muslims in the area, but there are enough extremists out there who want nothing less than the total destruction of the country of Israel and the annihilation of its people. I'm not convinced that the efforts of these "genocide-mongers" would be effectively thwarted by their neighbours. Just look at the excellent job Arafat is doing trying to control/stop the current wave of terrorist attacks upon Isreal.

<hr /></blockquote>C'mon, how do you expect Arafat to stop suicide bombers from bombing another country when Bush can't even stop U.S. citizens from bombing the U.S. You think if their was pressure from the government to stop bombings in the U.S., McVeigh wouldn't have done it. These suicide bombers are involved in a group completely seperated from the government and frankly don't give a sh*t what the government says or wants. Israel is using the suicide bombers as a scapegoat for destroying Palestine and are fully aware that Arafat has nothing to do with it.

Let's say that Israel would be dead if the U.S. didn't intervene. So what, technically Israel has nothing to do with the oil and as far as intelligence is concerned, their not doing a very good job if they can't even protect their own country from bombs. Now, if Kuwait or Saudi Arabia had a problem , then the U.S. would have something to worry about because THAT'S where the oil is. Instead of protecting them, we attack them. Bush is talking about taking over Saddam Hussein because he is voilating rules that stated the U.S. has the authority to inspect the country for weaponry, when Sharon violates laws of the Geneva Convention...it's ok because he's a Jew....When Hussein voilates the laws of NATO....we need to take him over.

The double standard is black and white, I am just so surprised more people don't see it.<hr /></blockquote>First, Timothy McVeigh was not a suicide bomber. He lived on for several years in jail after he bombed the Fed building in OK.

Second, Saddam Hussein invaded and took over another sovereign country. Isreal has never invaded and completely taken over another country. The West Bank and Gaza do not count because Palestine was never recognized as a sovereign country. Saddam has never backed down on his intentions to invade Kuwait and destroy Israel. He is emboldened by the death of Hafez al-Assad of Syria, which makes him the leading Ba'ath head of state in the Arab world (very powerful).
June 26th, 2002, 07:52 PM
KINGofBLEH

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by egypshn:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />From Sandman: I am not even sure if Israel signed the Geneva Convention <hr /></blockquote>This is a paragraph from one of several websites I found on Israel's actions and how it violates the Geneva Convention.......

Otherwise, 134 countries voted yes for the strong resolution that Palestinian envoy El-Kidwa called "in a sense the strongest resolution that the U.N. has ever passed" on the issue. It confirmed that the Geneva conventions still apply to the Israeli-occupied territories including Jerusalem. It condemned the settlements, and expressed its concern about armed Israeli settlers' behavior. Importantly, it called for action, which if the U.S. follows its own vote in 1950 is binding. First, it called for the parties who signed the Geneva Convention, such as the U.S., to do their duty to ensure compliance with them. Controversially, it called for the "cessation of all forms of assistance and support for illegal Israeli activities in the Occupied Palestinian Territory, including Jerusalem, in particular settlement activities."

As far as NATO, the U.S. is on Saddam because he has not allowed them to inspect the country for weaponry.

I hope this clears up my previous post......<hr /></blockquote>I was unaware of any actions NATO was taking against Iraq. The only weapons inspections in the area in the last 10 years were conducted by UN groups.

You do not cite WHICH Geneva Convention Sharon violated (betcha didn't know that there are several Geneva Conventions?)

BTW all, Israel signed all four Geneva Conventions, as did the United States.

If anyone is interested in the actual text of the Genava Conventions, check <a href="http://www.ukans.edu/carrie/docs/geneva.html" target="_blank">this</a> site out.
June 26th, 2002, 08:22 PM
Sandman72

King...
I must say I am ths far impressed with your responses. You seem well educated, logical, and level headed. You are a debate team captain if I ever did see one. :)
Egypshn, my brother, I truly enjoy your retorts and value your opinion. However, to me, it seems your are unfairly biased against Israel whether it be through indoctrination, or what not. I don't know if you can truly see either side in equal light. I may be wrong and please do not be offended as I do know you as a friend and brother. This is a most perplexing situation and I don't think there is an easy answer. I can honestly say that I have gotten to the point that I just don't care about either side anymore. I feel they are both wrong. If one destroys the other, well there is one less problem. I know this is a horrible way to look at things and at the value of human lives. Realistically, if this battle type of situation should occur, the palestinans would be wiped out. They don't have the tools to defeat Israel (even if the US stopped giving arms to israel). this would cause even more animosity towards Israel by the arab world. This would cause a greater conflict....my head hurts. I am glad I am not a diplomat for this seems to be a problem were there is no good solution. The only answer that might work is for BOTH sides to discard their warhawk and stubborn leaders in favor of moderates looking for peace. I tend to doubt that that is going to happen without a much larger scale war.
June 26th, 2002, 10:13 PM
KINGofBLEH

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Sandman72:
King...
You are a debate team captain if I ever did see one. :) <hr /></blockquote>Funny you should mention that.....
June 26th, 2002, 10:16 PM
ilovetheusers

Damn King. Might wanna go post in that "little known facts" thread.
June 26th, 2002, 10:38 PM
KINGofBLEH

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by ilovetheusers:
Damn King. Might wanna go post in that "little known facts" thread.<hr /></blockquote>Yah no kidding. Most people figure it out after they have known me for a while.....lol
June 27th, 2002, 06:24 AM
kingtbone

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by ilovetheusers:
Also, if you can find some stats on what who contributes money and soldiers I'd appreciate it. If I'm dead wrong I really want to know so I can change my viewpoint -wouldn't be the first time. Still, I think if you looked that you would find the US, over the entire period of time of the UN’s existence, contributed more than any other.<hr /></blockquote><a href="http://www.un.org/Depts/dpko/dpko/contributors/31032002.pdf" target="_blank">Here's</a> a PDF of this year's peacekeeping contributions to date. US stacks up at #17. Looking at the archives, the US topped out at number 8 worldwide for troop donations in 1997.

 <blockquote>quote:<hr />
And, I don’t feel that all of our media is one sided at all if you see all of it and not just CNN. I do feel that the televised media isn’t a decent source of information at all though and personally I avoid it whenever I can. <hr /></blockquote>I tend to agree that not all of our media is one sided, but that watching mass media will more often than not, give you a slightly skewed perspective. I commend you for your level-headedness as well :)
June 27th, 2002, 06:36 AM
Sandman72

That was aninteresting pdf but I think it is only counting military and civillian police not actual troops.
June 27th, 2002, 06:38 AM
kingtbone

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by KINGofBLEH:
Furthermore, CNN and the rest of the news media are not controlled by the Jews. They are controlled by Americans. Of course there will always be bias in favor of American ideals, but the fact that America has many news organizations and Freedom of the Press gives them a leg up on 90% of the rest of the world. <hr /></blockquote>Don't something like ten corporations control 90% of the media in the United States? I'll have to go break out the ol' Chomsky books on this one I guess. :)
June 27th, 2002, 06:46 AM
kingtbone

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Sandman72:
That was aninteresting pdf but I think it is only counting military and civillian police not actual troops.<hr /></blockquote>My understanding is that that's the way the UN labels troops. As far as peacekeeping operations are concerned, these are accurate numbers. Once you get into things like the US moving into Afghanistan, which, while it does jive with much of the world's interests, it's not a UN peacekeeping operation. That might be where the confusion comes from.
June 27th, 2002, 06:54 AM
kingtbone

Look at this great link I've found <a href="http://www.thenation.com/special/bigten.html" target="_blank">here</a>, describing how 10 companies control just about the whole landscape of American (and some European) media. I'm not sure why this is relevant, and I can't remember what made me look for this, but it is very interesting to see where the bulk of your daily information comes from. I guess it pertains to how all of the world's viewpoint is shaped by the interest of these 10 corporations.

Edit: P.S. It's all pictures! (And well made too!) :D
June 27th, 2002, 09:35 AM
egypshn

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> From Kingof Bleh:
I was unaware of any actions NATO was taking against Iraq. The only weapons inspections in the area in the last 10 years were conducted by UN groups.

<hr /></blockquote>I did apologize for the mix-up. I did not mean to reference NATO. I meant the UN and my point was that the U.S., being a participant has no right to back-up Israel knowing what they are doing to Palestinians. When I say I have friends in those areas, I mean I have friends in those areas, friends who have witnessed their families being killed in cold blood, friends who have literally had to run for their lives from Israeli soldiers, friends whose homes have been demolished right before their eyes....for what? Because of Hamas......a group completely independant of civilians and government. These people who are dying previousely lived normal lives like you and I. The other half of the problem is that is wasn't one simple attack where a few innocent people died, IT'S STILL HAPPENING AS WE SPEAK.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />From King of Bleh:
First, Timothy McVeigh was not a suicide bomber. He lived on for several years in jail after he bombed the Fed building in OK.

<hr /></blockquote>Does it really matter whether or not he is/was a suicide bomber, does it make a difference that he spent time in jail. If they caught the suicide bombers and arrested them they would simply change the name to homicide bombers but the fact remains they would still be terrorists *** opposed to a guy who blew up a building.As a matter of fact if you add up all of the casualties caused by McVeigh and the casualties caused by suicide bombers, the numbers would be surprisingly close.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> From King of Bleh:
I wonder how many Arab newspapers are printed in the middle east that are critical of Yasser Arafat or Saddam Hussein. Ummmmm the answer would be.....zero.

<hr /></blockquote>I tune in to the Arab Media (via satellite) quite often and THEY are the ones who show the real pictures, as hard as it may be to believe, for the most part they are unbiased. When Israelis die, they are just as saddened as when palestinians die. This is the real rationale behind my supposed biased opinions. The Arab channels will show the exact scene of destruction caused by suicide bombers but it's funny when ONLY the Arab channels show the destruction and casualties caused by Israelis

<blockquote>quote:<hr />From: ilove the users:
egypshn
I didn't mean to offend you bud. Now, don’t take this as an offensive statement. As for saying that you know people in the Mid East - you really know people in every single country and do you know people who know Arafat? What freedoms do their press have that assures that they can print something the government does not like? Most folks outside the US don’t have a constitution that protects the press and lets them print what they will. That’s what I was getting at.

<hr /></blockquote>No offense taken, I do respect your opinion. Yes I do know people. I do have a good friend who left the airforce (he is now in medical school) only 5 months ago. He used to fly one of the fighter aircrafts (not sure which one) and he simply couldn't handle the things they were doing. I will not go into details but he did receive "classified information" clearance and I do trust what he says. I am not one of those people who obtain an opinion and then try and find evidence to support it. Hey if the Arabs are wrong, they're wrong, I din't give a sh*t, I live here but when they aren't wrong I can't agree just because majority opinion agrees.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />From: ilove the users:
Just give me the alternative news source so I can go there.

<hr /></blockquote>My friends wife works for CNN (she was one of the few who were allowed to follow Clinton just about everywhere he went and I know this because she was on the news several times with him), and I also have a friend who works for a major TV network, (Fox2 News). Her name is Sandra Ali, Detroit, MI. Sandman, you live here, you may have seen her on the news. I was also previosely employed at the U.S. Embassy in Cairo Egypt and still keep in contact with some friends who are still employed there. I DO get an accurate scoop of a lot of the things that go on behind the scenes. I am not trying to sound like one of those people who just happen to know someone from every arena but I do have a lot of friends in a lot of places and I like to keep in touch with them for this very reason. I will do my best to get you a reliable alternative news source.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />From: King of Bleh:
Furthermore, CNN and the rest of the news media are not controlled by the Jews. They are controlled by Americans. <hr /></blockquote>You could not be more wrong buddy.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />From: ilovetheusers:
What freedoms do their press have that assures that they can print something the government does not like? <hr /></blockquote>The newspapers have to be a little bit more careful. The televised media has just as much freedom as they do here. Don't get me wrong, you'll never see a talk show host ripping on their leader as you see here (Jay Leno etc...)but as long as the info. is accurate, they are free to say what they like.

It is almost impossible for me to respond to everyone's input as I am being attacked with facts and numbers from many different people. We can go on about WWII and the Ottoman Empire and who divided the land till we are blue in the face. I guess you have to be an Arab to see the prejudice as I see it.

In the end...I got nothin but love for ya!!!!

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