Hippie vs. Rubber Bullet

Okay, I'll preface this by saying there certainly are a lot of idiots who join mass protests.

However, the cops are no innocent bystanders either.

There is a very common tactic used by anti-protestor forces. They are called "provocateurs". They are police, or people supplied by whoever the protest is against, who dress up like protesters and do things like throw bottles, smash stuff, try to rile up crowds, and generally antagonize police and innocent bystanders. This allows the cops to point at these people as "examples" of what the protesters are doing, and justifies police brutality in controlling the otherwise peaceful members of the protest.

When you look at the independent media and see some of the things that are done, you realize that both sides of the fence have noses that are not clean. In Italy during the G8 protests, "cops" wearing grey T-shirts spray painted POLICE and black helmets raided a school being used as a medical aid station and media HQ and attacked dozens of SLEEPING people with nightsticks, putting many of them into the hospital, breaking bones and splattering blood all over the place, smashing computers, etc... these were people who weren't obstructing anybody, weren't chanting, many of them weren't even involved with the protest outside...

You can shoot down the more extreme protesters all you like, that's a part of democracy, and you'd usually be right in criticizing them. But you are an idiot if you think they are the source of ALL of the trouble at protests.

I know what you are talking about and I have to say that you are right about half the time. I have watch what you are talking about to discredit a peace movement. The idea that police enrage peace movements just to beat the crap out of them is down right silly and ,to my knowledge, has never had evidence from a creditable source to prove your point Clambo

You are both so freaking wrong it makes me want to puke at your total and complete ignorance.

It is the cows, and they are spreading the mad cow disease thrugh all dairy products and into our water supply. They control our thoughts through superior technology and brain power given to them from the little people of Atlantis!!!!

Well Bracius..want a history lesson on the Chicago Democratic convention? or maybe kent State?

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Originally posted by geoscomp
Well Bracius..want a history lesson on the Chicago Democratic convention? or maybe kent State?

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Are you trying to be a jacka$$ or did you have a serious lapse in presentation skills?

I would be happy to review information if my point of perspective is incorrect

Quote:

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Originally posted by ßracius
Are you trying to be a jacka$$ or did you have a serious lapse in presentation skills?

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I like that! :D

Me?..trying to be a jackass? nah..already enough of them around here..guess i just thought you knew how to use google..since the posts of all the info about those two topics would run to thousands of pages..here is a bit of a quote that you can research if you really want to research from creditable sources..such as myself, for the 1968 democratic convention..you can find all sorts of stuff for that..but then, I was there..

"Chicago police illegally spied on – and sometimes used agent provocateurs
against -- thousands of political activists beginning in the 1960's,
particularly non-Anglo groups like the Black Panther Party and the Young
Lords," says Emile

Schepers of the Chicago Committee to Defend the Bill ofRights. "But they
also spied on housewives, clergy -- anyone identified as a political
dissident. The Chicago Red Squad, as the project was called, was one of
the largest local law enforcement counter-intelligence programs of its
kind in the country – and police tactics were so abusive that ultimately
the courts forced the city to sign a consent decree barring politically
motivated police spying. Recent court cases suggest that these illegal
practices have continued, but Ramsey eagerly joined other command level
officers in lobbying to destroy the Red Squad Consent Decree that the
courts used to outlaw these actions. That suggests that Ramsey has little
respect for laws that protect constitutional rights – and based on Mr.
Gainer’s provocative remarks to Black officers, it appears that he shares
Mr. Ramsey’s basic philosophies."

Gwen Hogan is more blunt. "Ramsey's great at soundbites and loves the
cameras," says Hogan. "But his root philosophy -- use maximum force and
deny everything, including basic rights -- is rotten to the core. I feel
sorry for DC residents. They got a raw deal when he was hired to run their
police department."


try a google with chicago red squad as your topic

Ok...here you are bringing up topics from protests in the 60's. Got anything that isn't over 30 years old? Maybe something this year.

I was like at a concert, and it like turned into a riot, and like the police came out and like threw tear gas and sad nasty things as they dispersed the crowd and like it was an odd scene and all man I was like bummed didn't get to see like the show and like the police were all gruff cause so much was like destroyed. :sad:

That article was from 1996 Ya Know..if you had bothered to look at the links to the red squad

Quote:

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Originally posted by Cleetus
I was like at a concert, and it like turned into a riot, and like the police came out and like threw tear gas and sad nasty things as they dispersed the crowd and like it was an odd scene and all man I was like bummed didn't get to see like the show and like the police were all gruff cause so much was like destroyed. :sad:

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But your supposed to buy a ticket not jump the fence Cleetus :D

Quote:

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Originally posted by geoscomp
That article was from 1996 Ya Know..if you had bothered to look at the links to the red squad

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The event, not the article, you dope. The event occurred in the 60's!!!

What about current protest that have been cloaked?

*burp* that was a nice lunch. ok, where were we?

Ok, yup. well since I asked Clam and not you for information about what he was talking about. You jumping in and answering for him either makes you ignorant and eager to prove that you are not or a jacka$$ that wants to point the blame at other people for not knowing what the hell you are talking about.

I decided not to make any sort of judgment and since you appear to know more about the subject I requested that you present the information. Instead you turn around and lash out again. I do agree that Google is easy to use but again, you were the self-proclaimed source of knowledge so natural I ask you to present.

So let me ask this to Clam since you are starting to define yourself as a reoccurring nightmare.

Bracius: "Clam, do you have any information about the subject you were talking about. I would prefer multilateral premise to this but whatever is available is cool."

Ya Know...the events referred to were from 1996 as well
the comments in the article regarding the earlier events were background to the court decisions regarding the removal of a court imposed order to cease and desist the practice after the 1996 case was brought. The same police chief that was responsible for attempting to void the court decision was then hired by the Wash. DC police force.

Bracius...

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The idea that police enrage peace movements just to beat the crap out of them is down right silly and ,to my knowledge, has never had evidence from a creditable source to prove your point Clambo

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I'm looking to find any indication in this statement that you asked anyone about providing evidence. Since there is credible evidence from such sources as the federal court system, I thought I would present it. If you desire to have your lunch, and then continue with this as a personal attack..go for it. I won't be responding anymore..threads on any subject related to war and peace are getting way to much out of hand.


BTW..I have approximately 2500 pages of documentation on various police forces and the use of unreasonable force from this country and others if you would like to really understand the topic.

Quote:

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Originally posted by geoscomp
Since the posts of all the info about those two topics would run to thousands of pages..here is a bit of a quote that you can research if you really want to research from creditable sources..such as myself, for the 1968 democratic convention..you can find all sorts of stuff for that..but then, I was there..

"Chicago police illegally spied on – and sometimes used agent provocateurs
against -- thousands of political activists beginning in the 1960's,
particularly non-Anglo groups like the Black Panther Party and the Young
Lords," says Emile

Schepers of the Chicago Committee to Defend the Bill ofRights. "But they
also spied on housewives, clergy -- anyone identified as a political
dissident. The Chicago Red Squad, as the project was called, was one of
the largest local law enforcement counter-intelligence programs of its
kind in the country – and police tactics were so abusive that ultimately
the courts forced the city to sign a consent decree barring politically
motivated police spying. Recent court cases suggest that these illegal
practices have continued, but Ramsey eagerly joined other command level
officers in lobbying to destroy the Red Squad Consent Decree that the
courts used to outlaw these actions. That suggests that Ramsey has little
respect for laws that protect constitutional rights – and based on Mr.
Gainer’s provocative remarks to Black officers, it appears that he shares
Mr. Ramsey’s basic philosophies."

Gwen Hogan is more blunt. "Ramsey's great at soundbites and loves the
cameras," says Hogan. "But his root philosophy -- use maximum force and
deny everything, including basic rights -- is rotten to the core. I feel
sorry for DC residents. They got a raw deal when he was hired to run their
police department."


try a google with chicago red squad as your topic

Quote:

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Originally posted by ßracius
The idea that police enrage peace movements just to beat the crap out of them is down right silly and ,to my knowledge, has never had evidence from a creditable source to prove your point Clambo

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I see an ambiuous quote refering "the courts". I am not against knowledge and I am interested in reading more

As for talking to Clam, it seems pretty evident but for your sake I could include some sort a tag to indentify who I am talking to.

*geoscomp* If I were to say that there is evidence of police brutality and someone asked me for proof and I said "oh, some guy named "geoscomp" that I know on the web"....Well you can see how that using you as a creditable resources is not going to cut it. I'm not saying that you were or were not there.

*geoscomp* I need [edit]you[/e] to remember that I never asked you for your interjection. You gave it, and very poorly at that. You can read the post and see. And yes, I intended to have lunch and come back to this converstaion. I do what I please, when I please. I know you do not have a problem with that and the logic behind it is simple.

*geoscomp* In conclusion, I do not mind reading 2,000+ of documents. Just don't expect me to reply to any discussion about the topic until I am done reading. I can do the search myself unless you want to present your source of information for me to review also.

* To the general readers* P.S. No spell checking this time, I"M LIVING ON THE EDGE BABY

To add a little bit to my "anti-gun" comment, I think hunting weapons should be legal, but I am still against hand guns as well. Everyone says we need more education, well if you havent noticed that the people that do these ****ed up school shootings and murder people are crazy and its pretty hard to teach crazy not to do this stuff (yes, contrary to popular belief there ARE still crazy people in the world)

If gun access was limited then they would have a harder time getting the guns to do these things.

As for "we need protection" arguments, I have yet to see where any crime was stopped as the result of some upstanding citizen with a gun.

I think guns are mainly a way for people to feel like they have some power.

and now, as the human torch would say

FLAME ON!

:flame:

Quote:

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Originally posted by Radical Dreamer

As for "we need protection" arguments, I have yet to see where any crime was stopped as the result of some upstanding citizen with a gun.

I think guns are mainly a way for people to feel like they have some power.

and now, as the human torch would say

FLAME ON!

:flame:

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1) You haven't seen an instance where a crime was stopped with a gun because you watch the brainwashing media. If you sincerely want an example, I can give you over a hundred in the last year.

2) If you believe guns == an extention of the penis then you were obviously educated in a liberal governent school and should learn to think for yourself.

A gun in your hand does give you a feeling of power. With that power comes a feeling of responsibility.

So, be a pussy and give away your power to the government and with it, kiss away your responsibility. When you have no rights left you'll have only yourself to blame. Oh wait, I forgot, when your guns (which guarantee the rest of your constitutional rights) are gone you'll be living in utopia.

BTW, my comment about A+ wasn't an insult, it was a fact. Falling back on insults when you have no argument left is the last defence of a man with no honor.

Quote:

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Originally posted by Radical Dreamer
To add a little bit to my "anti-gun" comment, I think hunting weapons should be legal, but I am still against hand guns as well. Everyone says we need more education, well if you havent noticed that the people that do these ****ed up school shootings and murder people are crazy and its pretty hard to teach crazy not to do this stuff (yes, contrary to popular belief there ARE still crazy people in the world)

If gun access was limited then they would have a harder time getting the guns to do these things.

As for "we need protection" arguments, I have yet to see where any crime was stopped as the result of some upstanding citizen with a gun.

I think guns are mainly a way for people to feel like they have some power.

and now, as the human torch would say

FLAME ON!

:flame:

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No flame, but a fervent disagreement. I may have related this to some of you before. In 1983 my soon to be bride was being stalked by a complete lunatic! This guy just took an unwanted liking to her and literally stalked her throughout Southwest Virginia. The local sherriff's department did nothing to stop it. Long story short he broke into her house armed with a 30/30 rifle and hid behind the bathroom door. My father in law, fed up with the local cops, had bought her a .38 Special and taught her how to use it. She came home from nursing school and went into the bedroom and placed her handbag on the dresser and just happen to see him coming from behind the bathroom door. Before he was able to completely wheel on her and get a clean shot she was able to get her gun and emptied it into the stalker. His shot missed. She got out of the house and ran to the neighbors house to call the cops. The stalker died on the way to the hospital. In the basement the VA State Police (notice not the local sheriff's dept) found ropes, plastic bags and torturing items (branding irons, wire, etc.). This sicko was determined that just killing my wife wasn't enough. The kicker to the story found out by the State Police investigation was the sicko was an "important" drug snitch and the county sherriff didn't want to kick his mole. So I do know of one case of an upstanding citizen with a gun stopping a crime and saving her life.
I also know of another case in West Virginia just last year where an armed citizen was able to save the life of a 6 year old girl who watched her Mommy & Daddy executed in a drug deal gone bad. Mommy was able to yell out for her daughter to run down the hollow to her uncles house before she took a bullet in the back of the head. The little girl got to her uncles house as he was coming out wondering what the shooting up the road was. She was crying saying mommy & daddy were hurt. Uncle got his gun and as the two thugs were heading down the road looking for the little one he was able to keep them pinned down until the cops arrived making the arrest. The uncle was unable to save his sister or brother in law, but he saved his niece's life. How do I know this? The little girls mommy was my 1st cousin (so is uncle).
Oh and my father has thwarted 2 breakins of the family business in Virginia with a .410 shotgun. The only shots fired were the report of a .410 as the idiots were crawling out of the window they broke in the back of the business.

...Then there's the HIGHLY publicized event that took place in New York not long ago. Dad wakes up to find a a criminal quietly stalking into his kid's room. Dad takes his pistol and ventilates him.

New York now holding Dad on charges of "illegal posession", all because he dared to protect his family. And the kicker in this case is that he actually applied for the NY registration once he moved in-state (transferred by the military), and they didn't process the paperwork in time...

Imagine that: a military member, responsible with weapons for the Nation's defence, and yet that's not good enough for the bueaucrats.

THENTHEREWASTHISTIMETHATISSAIDLIVINALIELIVINALIETE OOOMMMYY!!!!RAORAORAO!TORA!TORA!TORA!YINGYANGWALLA WALLABINGBANG.SOYEAH,THENTHEREWASTHISBLACKHELICHOP TERTHATLANDEDSIDEWAYSANDISAID"HOLYCRAP!"GONADSANDS TRIFE!

Quote:

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Originally posted by ßracius
THENTHEREWASTHISTIMETHATISSAIDLIVINALIELIVINALIETE OOOMMMYY!!!!RAORAORAO!TORA!TORA!TORA!YINGYANGWALLA WALLABINGBANG.SOYEAH,THENTHEREWASTHISBLACKHELICHOP TERTHATLANDEDSIDEWAYSANDISAID"HOLYCRAP!"GONADSANDS TRIFE!

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This is your brain on 6 pots of coffee, any questions?

Tony

Double Duce

Bracius, since when is geoscomp not allowed to participate in this conversation?

I don't have a bunch of convenient links to give you right now as my time on the net is severely limited these last few days.

For a good example of the police brutality I am talking about, I'll reiterate the G8 talks in Rome and the terror accompanying them. Articles can be found about it at Indymedia and all over the net.

Another good source of illegal and sneaky antiprotestor tactics is the book Toxic Sludge Is Good For You. It is primarily about the public relations industry, but there is a lot of documentation in it about what a lot of big corporations have done to deflate environmental protests and events such as Earth Day.

If you want me to find more articles I can certainly look for them in a couple of weeks. In the meantime I'd suggest you ask geoscomp. He is merely exercising his own right to free speech here; the same one you are exercising.

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Originally posted by silencio
2) If you believe guns == an extention of the penis then you were obviously educated in a liberal governent school and should learn to think for yourself.

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Gee, funny that, liberal schools ARE the schools where they encourage you to think for yourself, instead of being fed a party line... :rolleyes: