Warchalking??

My $0.02 worth !

Wireless networks present a problem in terms of security no ifs or buts about that - its not like a physical wire you'd have to tap, its 'public' & operates within the public domain - nobody owns the 'air' (I suppose the government do 'technically' but they license devices to use frequency ranges, not specific data or networks or information) ...

As correctly said earlier using someones bandwidth from this 'public' source would constitute 'theft of service' - but hang on a mo it might always be on ...

'Theft' is the act of permanatly depriving someone of something, so its only a 'crime' if the paying user wanted to use it while the thief was in ... if you made any attempt to secure it at all, then 'the tresspasser' committed a crime (under 'whatever' privacy laws apply where you are), if you didn't, then as long as they don't 'attack' your system at all & you weren't trying to use it yourself (at that time as bandwidth is a momentary thing - it doesn't 'accumulate'), then they didn't (commit any crime) 'technically' ...

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Originally Posted by confus-ed

My $0.02 worth !

Wireless networks present a problem in terms of security no ifs or buts about that - its not like a physical wire you'd have to tap, its 'public' & operates within the public domain - nobody owns the 'air' (I suppose the government do 'technically' but they license devices to use frequency ranges, not specific data or networks or information) ...

As correctly said earlier using someones bandwidth from this 'public' source would constitute 'theft of service' - but hang on a mo it might always be on ...

'Theft' is the act of permanatly depriving someone of something, so its only a 'crime' if the paying user wanted to use it while the thief was in ... if you made any attempt to secure it at all, then 'the tresspasser' committed a crime (under 'whatever' privacy laws apply where you are), if you didn't, then as long as they don't 'attack' your system at all & you weren't trying to use it yourself (at that time as bandwidth is a momentary thing - it doesn't 'accumulate'), then they didn't (commit any crime) 'technically' ...

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I don't know about over there but here in the US if you even ASSOCIATE to a wireless network it is considered "plugging in". Yes people are stupid and don't secure their networks. (Useless info of the day: M$ wireless equipment is the ONLY consumer based product that has wep enabled by default). That whole line of thought that "if it's not secure it's free for the taking" is flawed in so many ways. It is my choice to leave my car unlocked (and maybe even the keys in it with the windows down) but that does not give you the right to hop in and use the radio (or take it for a spin).

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Originally Posted by confus-ed

My $0.02 worth !
'Theft' is the act of permanatly depriving someone of something, so its only a 'crime' if the paying user wanted to use it while the thief was in

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I don't agree with that line of thinking at all. Does that mean anybody can steal my car without comitting a crime so long as they have it back before I need to use it again?

Or what about my wife? Can people take her for "a ride" just because I am not "using her"? Maybe this is not really a crime (or is it?), but you get the point.

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Originally Posted by 3fingersalute

I don't agree with that line of thinking at all. Does that mean anybody can steal my car without comitting a crime so long as they have it back before I need to use it again?

Or what about my wife? Can people take her for "a ride" just because I am not "using her"? Maybe this is not really a crime (or is it?), but you get the point.

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Fine bit of 'taking out of context' there :p - go back & read all that I put ;)

In the examples you give in 'defence' the first would be TWOC (taking without consent) - the second would be adultery & btw you don't 'own' your wife, she's free to make her own decisions, or ought to be - so neither of these is 'theft'.

I was talking specifically about the use of the wireless capacity that otherwise would go unused & therefore wasted ..

Well u cant do warchalking here much, no WLANs, atleast not much anyway.

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Originally Posted by confus-ed

My $0.02 worth !



'Theft' is the act of permanatly depriving someone of something, so its only a 'crime' if the paying user wanted to use it while the thief was in ... if you made any attempt to secure it at all, then 'the tresspasser' committed a crime (under 'whatever' privacy laws apply where you are), if you didn't, then as long as they don't 'attack' your system at all & you weren't trying to use it yourself (at that time as bandwidth is a momentary thing - it doesn't 'accumulate'), then they didn't (commit any crime) 'technically' ...

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Is that how the law on Theft reads where you live ?

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Originally Posted by GrandDad

Is that how the law on Theft reads where you live ?

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Yup & its also the dictionary definition ..

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Originally Posted by Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary

Etymology: Middle English thiefthe, from Old English thIefth; akin to Old English thEof thief
1 a : the act of stealing; specifically : the felonious taking and removing of personal property with intent to deprive the rightful owner of it b : an unlawful taking (as by embezzlement or burglary) of property
2 obsolete : something stolen
3 : a stolen base in baseball

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Originally Posted by confus-ed

Yup & its also the dictionary definition ..

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Sorry for my confus_ed'ness , you said ;

'Theft' is the act of permanatly depriving someone of something'

Webster says ;

"1 a : the act of stealing; specifically : the felonious taking and removing of personal property with intent to deprive the rightful owner of it b : an unlawful taking (as by embezzlement or burglary) of property"

the key word being 'permanatly'

can you un'confus_ed me young sir ?

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Originally Posted by GrandDad

..the key word being 'permanatly'

can you un'confus_ed me young sir ?

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Yeah so if you take it back or it was never 'required' because no one was using it, then its not 'theft' ..

Originally we talking about 'theft of service' well if I didn't want that service at that time & you got it instead, you didn't steal anything .. because you never deprived me of what I never wanted to use, as I didn't want to use it so you can't deprive me of something I don't want ..

Its obviously 'somehow wrong' but just what 'crime' is committed when there is no damage done, or attempt at intrusion to pc's, or denial of service if someone wanted to use it conconcurrently, I can't say ..

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Originally Posted by confus-ed

Fine bit of 'taking out of context' there :p - go back & read all that I put ;)

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Fair enough.

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Originally Posted by confus-ed

Fine bit of 'taking out of context' there :p - go back & read all that I put ;)[/& btw you don't 'own' your wife, she's free to make her own decisions, or ought to be - so neither of these is 'theft'.

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I know, I was just making a point.

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Originally Posted by confus-ed

Originally we talking about 'theft of service' well if I didn't want that service at that time & you got it instead, you didn't steal anything .. because you never deprived me of what I never wanted to use, as I didn't want to use it so you can't deprive me of something I don't want ..

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I still say theft of service is theft of service, regardless of whether I wanted to use the service at the time it was stolen or not. I pay for a service to be available for me to use 24/7, and anybody who takes away my ability to use that service (at any time) is stealing my rights to that service.

If we say 'potential denial of service' rather than 'theft' - I think that covers it ? :)

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.. I was just making a point.

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Being absolutely applicable ! ;)

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Originally Posted by confus-ed

Yeah so if you take it back or it was never 'required' because no one was using it, then its not 'theft' ..

Originally we talking about 'theft of service' well if I didn't want that service at that time & you got it instead, you didn't steal anything .. because you never deprived me of what I never wanted to use, as I didn't want to use it so you can't deprive me of something I don't want ..

Its obviously 'somehow wrong' but just what 'crime' is committed when there is no damage done, or attempt at intrusion to pc's, or denial of service if someone wanted to use it conconcurrently, I can't say ..

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So say for example (my Cable internet provider) they limit thier customers Band Width to 'X' amount because they only have 'XXX' amount available (for whatever reason) but say on a normal day not everyone's on-line at the same time and one's that are , probably wouldn't be using thier peak Band Width so the provider has 'X.x' un-used or not needed or unwanted on that day , if I used a Hack to double or more my Band Width thats not in use would that be 'theft of service' ?

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Originally Posted by GrandDad

So say for example (my Cable internet provider) they limit thier customers Band Width to 'X' amount because they only have 'XXX' amount available (for whatever reason) but say on a normal day not everyone's on-line at the same time and one's that are , probably wouldn't be using thier peak Band Width so the provider has 'X.x' un-used or not needed or unwanted on that day , if I used a Hack to double or more my Band Width thats not in use would that be 'theft of service' ?

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Ok so say I go down to my local supermarket and check the dairy section. They have 10 gallons of milk that are for sale 2 of which have todays experation date on them. Now lets say I grab a gallon of milk (that's experation date is say 10 days from now) and buy it. Is it theft to go back and take one that is expired just because "they wont be able to sell it"?

YES IT IS THEFT OF SERVICE Edited by NooNoo!!!
Now now, you know the rules, no getting personal.

WTF has expired milk got to do with any of this??
-ed is playing "devils advocate" and it looks to me like GrandDad is agreeing with all your good points before this one:
YES it is theft of service!! However you look at it, it is theft! If you are NOT paying for it, but "taking" it from someone else for free, that IS theft!


PS
Why call him an edited by NooNoo Gollo, when he is agreeing with you?

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Originally Posted by Gollo

Ok so say I go down to my local supermarket and check the dairy section. They have 10 gallons of milk that are for sale 2 of which have todays experation date on them. Now lets say I grab a gallon of milk (that's experation date is say 10 days from now) and buy it. Is it theft to go back and take one that is expired just because "they wont be able to sell it"?

YES IT IS THEFT OF SERVICE MORON!!!

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You mind telling who you were calling an edited by NooNoo?

Well, I guess I have to agree with Gollo now, since he started calling someone names.

I mean, that means he's right, doesn't it?

"The truth in any argument is inversely proportional to the volume of it".

Or something like that.

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Originally Posted by Gollo

YES IT IS THEFT OF SERVICE Edited by NooNoo!!!

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You didn't need to say that to someone who's new here whether they agree with your opinions or not. If you can't be civil don't reply.

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Originally Posted by gazzak

You didn't need to say that to someone who's new here whether they agree with your opinions or not. If you can't be civil don't reply.

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Agreed.

Ok then dudes since I'm 'that way out' courtsey of certain non neutral swiss referee ..

What about 'contention' ? - on say cable circuits, my guaranteed service at home is supposedly 256k .. but when I go routing about in the small print I find that actually what I'm 'guaranteed' is 1/64th of a 10mb pipe i.e 156k - so who's 'stealing' from who then here .. ?

They get the 256k figure from an average of 40 users per circuit at 'full load' (supposedly its throttled to a maximum but all what I get is like a sine wave so up & down between say 150k & 400k)

Sometimes I can get all of the 'pipe' ! :D .. (usually after a little conversation with the steady stream of cable techs who visit the big green distribution point outside my house - a cup of coffee usuaully gets me switched to a new circuit ! ;)) but other times I just get the same as everyone else & at peak times I'm only getting 156k but that's before any overheads so actually I'm getting less ..

Now there can't be any 'theft' here whatsoever as I'm 'authorised' to get between 1/64th of it & all of it - but according to what certain folks here believe, I'm a dirty thief ..

If you want to be all litteral about it, when your isp's server is busy then they are 'stealing' from you all the time ..

So I'm still of the opinion that warchalking is only a crime if you do something bad to a system or actually stop someone using what is rightfully theirs, but if they didn't want to use it, then its a case of 'no foul, no harm'.

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Originally Posted by GrandDad

So say for example (my Cable internet provider) they limit thier customers Band Width to 'X' amount because they only have 'XXX' amount available (for whatever reason) but say on a normal day not everyone's on-line at the same time and one's that are , probably wouldn't be using thier peak Band Width so the provider has 'X.x' un-used or not needed or unwanted on that day , if I used a Hack to double or more my Band Width thats not in use would that be 'theft of service' ?

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Just for the record ;
my ISP would call it Theft of Service and get you at min. kicked off for like a year .
I was only playing with _ed on his use of the word 'theft' and let it go at that
for now .

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Originally Posted by GrandDad

..I was only playing with _ed on his use of the word 'theft' and let it go at that ...

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I know that, you know that, & mostly everyone else did ;) - but I like the use of the words 'for now' :D

Oops! My bad. Thats what I get for reading that post at night. My apologies.

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Originally Posted by Gollo

Oops! My bad. Thats what I get for reading that post at night. My apologies.

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I forgive you , LOL

No problem guy . :thumbs: