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I'd say both sides have heavy fault lain in them, and the way it looks, neither side will reconcile under their current leaders. But if you think about it, what's the solution? It's an impossible situation to begin with, and I can't see how it will ever be resolved.
ok enough with the mud slinging. This was supposed to be an open venue to discuss differing opinions on a difficult subject. I feel each side has given me some good food for thought. My thought on the matter...
Yes Americans are very egocentric. We always feel we have and are the best at everything. Some times it is warrented and other times it is not. As far as being the strongest nation...Militarily we are. So what some "cavedwellers" (not my word so save the flame) knocked down some buildings. That doesn't mean we are weak. Even the strongest of fighters get black eyes or bloody noses. As far as Palestine and Israel I think both sides have been wrong. I don't agree with what either side has done. Israel seems to take the attitude that if you kill one we kill 20. thats their form of a deterent that doen't seem to work too well. The palestinans use suicide bombers against civillian targets. Personally, I find those actions cowardice and completely reprehensible. I don't advocate any combatants ever attacking civillian targets on purpose. The trick against palestine is try to determine who the innocents are. Arafat really needs to show the world something by cracking down hard on the militants and I don't mean token arrests of a few minor players. He needs to be equally outraged about attacks on civillians. This may garner him a little more support from the west. This may also have the benefit of removing any excuse Israel has which may turn public opinion against Israel. Right now it doesn't seems like any side really wants peace. They may pay it lip service but thats about all they do. The Palestinians may also help their cause by condeming those (hamas namely)that refuse to acknowledge that israel (like the palestinians) have a right to exist.
Well thats just my thoughts for now. Who knows maybe another opinion will sway me a little more. But for now I think they are both wrong.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Chill out man, I didn't make any real remarks towards you or your views, I just made little pathetic jokes. I didn't mention how you kept bringing up jews in your first posts. To me it showed your bias right through. It is because of those views why I truly believe that America should stand by Isreal and why the whole situation is obscene. If you remember this time last year, America and several other countries sat out of the UN meeting in South Africa. That meeting was to blast Isreal and in promotion of the Palestenian cause. Then somehow a couple of months later, the battle was brought to America.
Personally I think the whole problem is due to pride on all parties. Many of the former Ottoman territories and also the Muslim nations are hurt in their personal pride becasue they realize they are nothing. Without oil, the would be nowhere. Here comes Isreal, with money and the full backing of the Western world right in their yard. And everytime they have tried to do something, they have gotten their rear's handed to them. A hurt pride couple with religious fervor is a scarry, scarry thing. It is something that will take a long time to heal.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">My views have nothing to do with "Jews" or their religion. My views are always geared towards Israel, it just happens that Jews are the ones who live there. It's the Israelis, if they were Muslim, my views would be the same.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">I don't think there are many Afganees that seriously doubt that when you piss us off that we will put some hurt to you.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yeah, blowing up Afghanistan is something to be proud of............
First of all, this is my ONE post on this subject, so please do not direct any questions my way. I simply felt the urge to use my rights and state my opinion here....
The US, Britain, Russia, and countless other countries which are involved with the UN have had enormous conflicts within their borders over everthing from human rights to personal religion just as Palestine and Isreal have now, as well as India and Pakistan. All these countries came to a successfull peace, but not before learning hard lessons through bloody conflict where their own people fought each other for control. There is just one difference here. All these countries (including the US)found final resolution to their conflicts and are now productive members of the world community. All these countries IMHO are more than qaulified to consult these childish peoples on how to better get along since they have demonstrated so often how they cant do it themselves. If nessesarry spankings should be handed out to the bad children and their privledges taken away until they show that they can get along as well as give something productive and positive to the world.
In short,the UN are the parents and they are the children. Start getting along down there and stop ruining my life or im gonna come down there and hand out some beatings!
The US refused payment to the UN back in Regans term and I’m not sure where you get your figures but I’m pretty sure that the US is and always has been the biggest supporter. Now, Canada is a massive supporter but the US is usually the one who has military troops involved in peacekeeping actions around the world (I know this as one of my friends in artillery support is constantly being lugged to whatever war torn hell hole the media offers up that day). We spend so much to have our military here and there and everywhere and no one ever pays us a dime for it. Just FYI. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
Egypshn: Where are you getting your information from? What news source?
I ask because the Palestinians and their supporters have a propaganda machine in place that is well oiled and running with steam. It has been designed to demonize Israel and it’s supporter and so far it’s been pretty effective upon the people of my country and the rest of the world. I have heard that CNN and US Media are somehow biased against the Palestinians or the Middle East but they followed government edit to NOT show people throughout the Middle East celebrating the fact that terrorists had knocked down the world trade center towers. They printed the story about the Israeli tank crew shooting the mother and her daughters, they print about the Israelis firing into crowds when they are amassed and throwing bottles and rocks. Where does this bias come from? I say that the case is the other way around – I have yet to see footage of a little Israeli girls limbs lying about the street from a suicide bomber – bought and paid for from Arafat’s coffers! And don’t hand us that line about how he is not a part of Hamas. I for one do not doubt for a moment that he is the head of the organization. It’s the same thing as Northern Ireland – the leaders state they have no control over the terrorists – it’s a damn lie and we all know it.
As for the policy of killing 20 for every Israeli, I don’t get where this comes from. I call it self-defense. The Israelis have settlements in the lands they took in wars. After a war you are allowed to colonize the land you took – them’s the breaks. I suggest that the nations of the region stop attacking Israel and this will not happen again. Afghanistan – the land where books were outlawed and women not allowed to go out in the streets for fear of being beaten – human rights violated in the name of religion. I would refer you to the people there who could be shot for having an opinion that was different from the leaders. We helped liberate that country and we brought the people back to power instead of a bunch of religious despots. We may have dropped bombs on civilians but it was only because of the cowardice of those you would probably consider to be “swell guys” hiding in and among the populace to deter us from destroying their armies. Don’t talk to me about how this was something to be embarrassed about, we freed those people from tyranny. Go to the web sites of the poor women forced to live in the conditions set by the Taliban and the other rulers. Watch the videos of people being shot before sporting events because they disagreed politically. See the brutality of the people we sent packing. <a href="http://rawasongs.fancymarketing.net/gallery.html" target="_blank">http://rawasongs.fancymarketing.net/gallery.html</a>
Again – where are you getting your information from? :confused:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">From: ilovetheusers:
And don’t hand us that line about how he is not a part of Hamas. I for one do not doubt for a moment that he is the head of the organization. It’s the same thing as Northern Ireland – the leaders state they have no control over the terrorists – it’s a damn lie and we all know it.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">You have the guts to aske me where I obtain my information from????? That was the most ludricrous statement I have seen yet. No offense but you need to read up on your "current affairs".
Actually the fact that you have not seen footage of dead citizens in Israel is a damn lie! You and I both know it.
Please don't talk about granting the people of Afghanistan freedom by knocking out the Taliban. It's a bunch of sh*t and you know nothing about the country or what goes on there.
For the record, my information is obtained first hand through people who live in those countries unlike yours obtained through one-sided media anchorman/woman who simply say what benefits the network as opposed to saying the truth.
I also have friends in the military who fill me in on what goes on in the shadows.
I am going to suggest we end this forum on a pleasant note. Their were many valid and strong opinions given however we may as well be Israel and Palestine, I don't think either side is going to convince the other of their opinion. It was nice to chat with all of you.
Hold on now ilovetheusers, I'm not going to let you call out other people's sources without checking you :D
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by ilovetheusers:
<strong>The US refused payment to the UN back in Regans term and I’m not sure where you get your figures but I’m pretty sure that the US is and always has been the biggest supporter.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Ok, figures...
<a href="http://www.globalpolicy.org/finance/tables/core/un-us-02.htm" target="_blank">Take a look</a>
The US now owes just over 1 billion to the UN. The funny stat is that it owes more than the rest of the planet combined.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><strong>Now, Canada is a massive supporter but the US is usually the one who has military troops involved in peacekeeping actions around the world </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">In terms of troops, I'd be beyond surprise if the US was in the top 5 for sending troops on UN peacekeeping operations. I'm not even talking about per-capita either. I'll try to find some stats on that too if you'd like.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><strong>As for the policy of killing 20 for every Israeli, I don’t get where this comes from. I call it self-defense. The Israelis have settlements in the lands they took in wars. After a war you are allowed to colonize the land you took – them’s the breaks. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">I think therein lies the core problem. So many people from both sides have been displaced from their homes, how will they ever solve this? The reason the Palestinians fight so hard is that they've been fored from their homes and from their land. There are almost 4 million Palestinian refugees registered with the UN today. It's hard to expect them to just give up their homes and move on.
Also I don't think peace can be brokered with the current leaders from either side.
T bone - you got me there - best to check my sources - though this graph:
<a href="http://www.globalpolicy.org/finance/tables/tab5.htm" target="_blank">http://www.globalpolicy.org/finance/tables/tab5.htm</a>
seems to kind of go along with what I didn't explain properly. Regan and Bush did not pay UN dues for some reason or another (I think they were disagreeing with our policies so we gave them the finger and told them to foot the bill themselves). The #'s stabilize during the Clinton era when we started paying again. Also - we owe more because we pay more than anyone else, again – from what I understand – I may be wrong. I can't find out who pays what from their records but find it odd that they went deeply in debt when we stopped contributing.
Also, if you can find some stats on what who contributes money and soldiers I'd appreciate it. If I'm dead wrong I really want to know so I can change my viewpoint -wouldn't be the first time. Still, I think if you looked that you would find the US, over the entire period of time of the UN’s existence, contributed more than any other.
egypshn
I didn't mean to offend you bud. Asking someone where he/she gets info is fairly commonplace here. I have been know to change my opinions in the face of new information and what I was looking for is the media outlet you use as I would actually go there myself. I get my info from talk radio and the newspapers political sections.
Now, don’t take this as an offensive statement. As for saying that you know people in the Mid East - you really know people in every single country and do you know people who know Arafat? What freedoms do their press have that assures that they can print something the government does not like? Most folks outside the US don’t have a constitution that protects the press and lets them print what they will. That’s what I was getting at.
And, I don’t feel that all of our media is one sided at all if you see all of it and not just CNN. I do feel that the televised media isn’t a decent source of information at all though and personally I avoid it whenever I can. As for seeing dead Israeli’s in the news, you are right, I have seen that, but don’t discount the barrage of media about the other side. I have seen photos of shot/wounded Palestinians but not dismembered people from the bombings, more of a damaged building and disoriented people.
As for not know what is going on in Afghanistan, I probably know more than you think but not as much as others and no I do not know what someone there experiences first hand. I can take things from RAWA and see how bad things were with the Taliban running things. If you want to discount the things the website I posted notes, I’m OK with that. Just give me the alternative news source so I can go there.
I too would like things to remain pleasant, I just like to gets things straight. If my sources are incorrect, I will do research and might change my opinion.
Great reply, kinda wish they would hurry up with technology and make a better 'You Were There' series. That would be cool, plus if could make it somehow unbiased we could learn from eachothers experiences so much better.
I think Arafat is largely now reduced to being a figure head and propaganda piece. He knows he can't stop the suicide bombers, and he also knows that if he agrees to ANY peace deal that doesn't include the unilateral destruction of Israel, he'd he dead within hours. Arafat IMHO, is a non-player. Arafat personally approved expenditures for suicide bombers. While publicly condemning suicide bombing in ENGLISH, Arafat, in Arabic, praises the bombers as martyrs, while urging "jihad, jihad, jihad." He serves no purpose except as the mouth piece of other Arab interests
Why dont they get help from their Muslim Brothers..hmmm could it be the Palestinians under Arafat tried to overthrow the late king of Jordan, King Hussein in 1970. The Arabic nations provide funds for the suicide bombers only because they hate Israel, not becasue they love the Palestinians. From what I've seen, read about and personally witnessed, is that the Arab world has been using the Palestinians as cannon fodder...their deaths as propoganda..
Why? No arabic nation is willing to openly confront Israel, because Israel is a nuclear power, and of course the US and oil...
Is there a solution at this point? I don't really think so. A recent New York Times article questioned several leaders of Hamas. Did these leaders envision a side-by-side peaceful coexistence with a Jewish state called Israel? No.
The most optimistic answer was provided by one Dr. Mahmoud al-Zahar said, "(Jews could live) in an Islamic state with Islamic law. Great..
And for sake of comparison, how many hundreds of thousand of people have died in Muslim on Muslim violence? The Iran/Iraq war comes to mind and many others. Israel has been the model of restraint and tolerance in comparison....
And no, I am not really a supporter of Israel either, even though they are the ONLY consistent ally of the US and the only thing approximating a democracy in the region.
I'd like to be hopeful, to have the violence end, for both parties to get what they want, for them both to stop the killing, but I just can't see much hope at this point....
To respond to some of the attacks on CNN, this is a red herring. My information comes from the Contemporary World Politics Quarterly, several international news periodicals, and 4 years of study in college. Keep in mind that the situation in the middle east is not about the Jews or Arabs, it is an offshoot of Cold War politics fueled by religious and political overtones. The reality is that the borders we see in the middle east (and other parts of the world, i.e. Afghanistan) were imposed by the imperial and western powers that have occupied those areas throughout the past two millenia. As WWII drew to a close, Churchill met with his closest advisors to decide how to divide the middle east and north Africa. At one point (legend has it), he actually took a pencil and started drawing borders on the blank map of the area. The borders we see today are arbitrary and only serve to make the conflicts in the area worse.
Furthermore, CNN and the rest of the news media are not controlled by the Jews. They are controlled by Americans. Of course there will always be bias in favor of American ideals, but the fact that America has many news organizations and Freedom of the Press gives them a leg up on 90% of the rest of the world. I wonder how many Arab newspapers are printed in the middle east that are critical of Yasser Arafat or Saddam Hussein. Ummmmm the answer would be.....zero.
ilovetheusers, a clarification please. I am not sure what you are referring to when you say that Israel fought a war against the British. If you are referring to the skirmishes between British troops and the followers of David ben Gurion (sp?), that really was not a war. The British basically retreated back into the Sinai to make sure they had enough forces to defend the Suez Canal.
ilovetheusers, I am not sure what you are referring to when you say that Israel fought a war against the British. If you are referring to the skirmishes between British troops and the followers of David ben Gurion (sp?), that really was not a war. The British basically retreated back into the Sinai to make sure they had enough forces to defend the Suez Canal.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by egypshn:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">From: ilovetheusers:
And don’t hand us that line about how he is not a part of Hamas. I for one do not doubt for a moment that he is the head of the organization. It’s the same thing as Northern Ireland – the leaders state they have no control over the terrorists – it’s a damn lie and we all know it.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">You have the guts to aske me where I obtain my information from????? That was the most ludricrous statement I have seen yet. No offense but you need to read up on your "current affairs".
Actually the fact that you have not seen footage of dead citizens in Israel is a damn lie! You and I both know it.
Please don't talk about granting the people of Afghanistan freedom by knocking out the Taliban. It's a bunch of sh*t and you know nothing about the country or what goes on there.
For the record, my information is obtained first hand through people who live in those countries unlike yours obtained through one-sided media anchorman/woman who simply say what benefits the network as opposed to saying the truth.
I also have friends in the military who fill me in on what goes on in the shadows.
I am going to suggest we end this forum on a pleasant note. Their were many valid and strong opinions given however we may as well be Israel and Palestine, I don't think either side is going to convince the other of their opinion. It was nice to chat with all of you.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Egypshn, anyone has the right to question your sources of information regardless of what information they may have. So far we have only heard you make vague referrences to "people who live in those countries" and "friends in the military". Anyone can come in here and make those claims. I have studied under two Fulbright scholars who spent over 30 years combined in the area. I also spend time every day reading publications and newspaper articles written mainly by Arabic reporters. I am not saying I am the "expert" on the subject. Of course, nothing can take the place of personal experience. But please don't be offended when someone questions your sources unless you are willing to back up your claims with cold, hard evidence.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by egypshn:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Kingof Bleh: My own stance on this is simply that if Israel no longer has a democratic "superpower" ally, they're dead. Period. It may not be the goal of all muslims in the area, but there are enough extremists out there who want nothing less than the total destruction of the country of Israel and the annihilation of its people. I'm not convinced that the efforts of these "genocide-mongers" would be effectively thwarted by their neighbours. Just look at the excellent job Arafat is doing trying to control/stop the current wave of terrorist attacks upon Isreal.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">C'mon, how do you expect Arafat to stop suicide bombers from bombing another country when Bush can't even stop U.S. citizens from bombing the U.S. You think if their was pressure from the government to stop bombings in the U.S., McVeigh wouldn't have done it. These suicide bombers are involved in a group completely seperated from the government and frankly don't give a sh*t what the government says or wants. Israel is using the suicide bombers as a scapegoat for destroying Palestine and are fully aware that Arafat has nothing to do with it.
Let's say that Israel would be dead if the U.S. didn't intervene. So what, technically Israel has nothing to do with the oil and as far as intelligence is concerned, their not doing a very good job if they can't even protect their own country from bombs. Now, if Kuwait or Saudi Arabia had a problem , then the U.S. would have something to worry about because THAT'S where the oil is. Instead of protecting them, we attack them. Bush is talking about taking over Saddam Hussein because he is voilating rules that stated the U.S. has the authority to inspect the country for weaponry, when Sharon violates laws of the Geneva Convention...it's ok because he's a Jew....When Hussein voilates the laws of NATO....we need to take him over.
The double standard is black and white, I am just so surprised more people don't see it.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">First, Timothy McVeigh was not a suicide bomber. He lived on for several years in jail after he bombed the Fed building in OK.
Second, Saddam Hussein invaded and took over another sovereign country. Isreal has never invaded and completely taken over another country. The West Bank and Gaza do not count because Palestine was never recognized as a sovereign country. Saddam has never backed down on his intentions to invade Kuwait and destroy Israel. He is emboldened by the death of Hafez al-Assad of Syria, which makes him the leading Ba'ath head of state in the Arab world (very powerful).
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by egypshn:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">From Sandman: I am not even sure if Israel signed the Geneva Convention </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">This is a paragraph from one of several websites I found on Israel's actions and how it violates the Geneva Convention.......
Otherwise, 134 countries voted yes for the strong resolution that Palestinian envoy El-Kidwa called "in a sense the strongest resolution that the U.N. has ever passed" on the issue. It confirmed that the Geneva conventions still apply to the Israeli-occupied territories including Jerusalem. It condemned the settlements, and expressed its concern about armed Israeli settlers' behavior. Importantly, it called for action, which if the U.S. follows its own vote in 1950 is binding. First, it called for the parties who signed the Geneva Convention, such as the U.S., to do their duty to ensure compliance with them. Controversially, it called for the "cessation of all forms of assistance and support for illegal Israeli activities in the Occupied Palestinian Territory, including Jerusalem, in particular settlement activities."
As far as NATO, the U.S. is on Saddam because he has not allowed them to inspect the country for weaponry.
I hope this clears up my previous post......</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">I was unaware of any actions NATO was taking against Iraq. The only weapons inspections in the area in the last 10 years were conducted by UN groups.
You do not cite WHICH Geneva Convention Sharon violated (betcha didn't know that there are several Geneva Conventions?)
BTW all, Israel signed all four Geneva Conventions, as did the United States.
If anyone is interested in the actual text of the Genava Conventions, check <a href="http://www.ukans.edu/carrie/docs/geneva.html" target="_blank">this</a> site out.
King...
I must say I am ths far impressed with your responses. You seem well educated, logical, and level headed. You are a debate team captain if I ever did see one. :)
Egypshn, my brother, I truly enjoy your retorts and value your opinion. However, to me, it seems your are unfairly biased against Israel whether it be through indoctrination, or what not. I don't know if you can truly see either side in equal light. I may be wrong and please do not be offended as I do know you as a friend and brother. This is a most perplexing situation and I don't think there is an easy answer. I can honestly say that I have gotten to the point that I just don't care about either side anymore. I feel they are both wrong. If one destroys the other, well there is one less problem. I know this is a horrible way to look at things and at the value of human lives. Realistically, if this battle type of situation should occur, the palestinans would be wiped out. They don't have the tools to defeat Israel (even if the US stopped giving arms to israel). this would cause even more animosity towards Israel by the arab world. This would cause a greater conflict....my head hurts. I am glad I am not a diplomat for this seems to be a problem were there is no good solution. The only answer that might work is for BOTH sides to discard their warhawk and stubborn leaders in favor of moderates looking for peace. I tend to doubt that that is going to happen without a much larger scale war.