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So who made the bacteria and viruses that cause disease and pestilence?Quote:
Again, God is not capricious. He does not act detached and aloof from the plights of mankind. His desire is the spiritual, physical and emotional well-being of all humans. Unfortunately, war and pestilence have been wrongly attributed to the wrong guy throughout the middle ages and even today.
Who makes volcanoes erupt? Earthquakes happen?
Would somebody please explain to me how a book that was written thousands of years ago, has been through many translations, and which nobody knows - with any real clarity - who wrote it, becomes infallible? - and that everything in there gets to be interpreted literally?
Of course I'm referring to the Bible. Even theologians who know much more about this subject than you or I will tell you that the 1st century Catholic Church, which choose which books to be included, decided that the books of Phillip and the book of Thomas were excluded. Why? Isn't that Man's judgement - not God's judgement, that being worked?
Also, do you really have so much faith in the 1st century Catholic Church to say that the Bible is infallible? Did it ever occur to anyone that they might be wrong?
The bible was given to us in every step by the divine intervention of the maker up above.
He is also the one that gave me my cousins and my sister and my chickens and my sheep, but told me not to covet my neighbors ***, He giveth and He taketh away.
Let us all bow our heads and for pete's sake, take that tobaccer out of yer mouth, I cn't take yous anywhere ma.
Please stop, I am going to sh!t my pants, I am laughing so hard....:D :DQuote:
Originally posted by Cleetus
The bible was given to us in every step by the divine intervention of the maker up above.
He is also the one that gave me my cousins and my sister and my chickens and my sheep, but told me not to covet my neighbors ***, He giveth and He taketh away.
Let us all bow our heads and for pete's sake, take that tobaccer out of yer mouth, I cn't take yous anywhere ma.
It certainly will if you bring up the concept of mistranslation. Don't even get me started on the whole Mary-Was-Never-Really-A-Virgin bit. Even Snopes shoots the Bible down on that one.Quote:
Originally posted by paraflyer
And "Thou shalt not kill" is a mis-translation, the original is "Thou shalt not murder." ...
...This topic could go on for weeks....
There are a number of people who believe that the Bible as we see it today was brought to us by God, and the various translations and mistranslations are all His will... that He WANTS the Bible to read exactly as it does today.
This seems to me spurious in the extreme. Bill Gates could easily produce the Bible 2.0, updated and corrected by the best theologians he can hire. Undoubtedly this would acquire a major following, especially if he got endorsement from the Pope. I see it as realistic that it could become more popular than the King James Bible (or whatever other version you follow.)
Would such a text then be the Word of God? Because by your logic it would be God's desire to have that version disseminated...
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Regarding homosexuality, it is said by scientists (I know that religion doesn't regard science as an authority, but the feeling's entirely mutual) that any trait shared by at least 5% of the population has some genetic reason to exist. I think I know the answer to that. They did studies on rats, where they built little rat complexes and filled them up with rats to see how they lived. The complexes where rats had plenty of space resulted in "normal" rats. The complexes where rats were very crowded, although there was always plenty of food and water provided, resulted in violence, social problems with the rats, and a high level of homosexuality amongst the rat population.
This implies to me that homosexuality is a natural way to check overpopulation.
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As an after thought I want to thank everybody for discussing this so rationally so far. This has the potential to explode and I'm still not sure it won't... :(
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But in the end, all of you who believe quite plainly that homosexuality is a sin, you have lost a lot of my respect. Homosexuals do NOT have any choice in how they are born. They can't be "cured" or "fixed". While you as good Christians may be good, forgiving, intelligent people (and I recognize this is true in many cases here, for example MacGyver and Adept), the Bible is very clear on one thing--if you don't repent, you are going to Hell. And that attitude is the exact thing that pushes so many people out of the Christian religion. Including me.
If God does exist, and is omniscient, omnipotent, and all forgiving, then He will understand the flaws in the Bible, my troubles believing in it and forgive me for them.
If God is something other than the above, then I don't want to believe in or support him anyways.
Coming from a liberal non-christian - I have a different point of view. I think a lot of this is where someone comes from and what point of view they have on this.
I think the bible is a good book and makes a pretty good guide on how to live a good life - but I don't take it literally. I certainly don't understand how people can use it to justify their actions. If jesus knew what was done "in his name" - he'd be PISSED.
I don't believe in censorship of the bible, but I know several bible-thumpers that would happily censor Harry Potter "in the name of the lord".
I hate the things racists have to say and I think they're disgusting, but here in the US - they have the right to say and to think what they want. I have the right to object to that.
You have to realize that most people are reasonable people, but there's extremests on any side.
You have bible-thumpers-youre-burning-in-hell types.
You have uber-gay-in-your-face-activists.
By definition - I've been living in sin ( and its fun ). I live my life with respect, honor, and do what I think is right.
Religion in general is an elaborate joke played on you by space aliens. We Klingons have proof.
Not here, not now... PM or IM me if you'd like to debate this further. ;)Quote:
Originally posted by Wayward Clam
It certainly will if you bring up the concept of mistranslation. Don't even get me started on the whole Mary-Was-Never-Really-A-Virgin bit. Even Snopes shoots the Bible down on that one...
Actually, the argument you've used here is proving my own viewpoint - that homosexuality stems from social and psychological sources, not natural heredity. But I think we agree on the basics here.Quote:
...Regarding homosexuality, it is said by scientists (I know that religion doesn't regard science as an authority, but the feeling's entirely mutual) that any trait shared by at least 5% of the population has some genetic reason to exist. I think I know the answer to that. They did studies on rats, where they built little rat complexes and filled them up with rats to see how they lived. The complexes where rats had plenty of space resulted in "normal" rats. The complexes where rats were very crowded, although there was always plenty of food and water provided, resulted in violence, social problems with the rats, and a high level of homosexuality amongst the rat population.
This implies to me that homosexuality is a natural way to check overpopulation...
By the way, I'm one who loves science and I have an analytical mind. This doesn't stop me from believing things, either scientifically or spiritually, that cannot (yet) be proven. Science is not infallible either.
Actually, homosexuality is "curable" (I can back this up) while at the same time I concur that the large majority of homosexuals do not have a choice in their orientation. I also agree that it is a sin. Why that should bother anyone who doesn't hold the Bible as true eludes me, but I know we can still continue a respectful and logical discourse, right?Quote:
...But in the end, all of you who believe quite plainly that homosexuality is a sin, you have lost a lot of my respect. Homosexuals do NOT have any choice in how they are born. They can't be "cured" or "fixed"...
Homosexuality is no more a problem to deal with for God than those born with a violent disposition or alcoholics - it's just another facet of the sinful nature of man today.
God forgives when man repents (turns away from his previous way of life), so there's a certain dilemma here... ;pQuote:
...the Bible is very clear on one thing--if you don't repent, you are going to Hell. And that attitude is the exact thing that pushes so many people out of the Christian religion. Including me.
If God does exist, and is omniscient, omnipotent, and all forgiving, then He will understand the flaws in the Bible, my troubles believing in it and forgive me for them.
If God is something other than the above, then I don't want to believe in or support him anyways.
As I've said before, a "sin' is man's failed attempt to achieve a goal without regard to God's will in the matter. Sins don't hurt God - they harm mankind (individually and colllectively) and that is why God hates it. He never hates a person.
Apart from the "theory", I can attest to numerous occasions where I saw or felt the presence of God in my life. This relationship with God is liberating and a constant source of joy for me. It makes me a better person to follow God's recommandations regarding "sin" in general. His presence casts waves in my physical, emotional, and spiritual life.
This is so much more interesting than chess, no? :D
Enlighten me on "curable".Quote:
Actually, homosexuality is "curable" (I can back this up) while at the same time I concur that the large majority of homosexuals do not have a choice in their orientation. I also agree that it is a sin. Why that should bother anyone who doesn't hold the Bible as true eludes me, but I know we can still continue a respectful and logical discourse, right?
I have a hard time grasping what you are saying since I don't believe in the god you believe in. I'm not trying to start anything ugly. I really do try to understand where you come from.
So what if someone decides to do their "own thing". They live their lives, you live yours. Be courdial when you meet in the shopping market aisle. All's well.
And Judith slept with the General of the enemy, and the cut off his head which they placed on the gates of the city. Of course, then again, most of your bibles don't have the book of Judith, and I will never sleep with one of the women of the enemy until her town is defeated.
TRUE TRUE TRUE !!!!! Now, why is it that so many Christians forget this? I am assuming they (we) forget this based on their (our) actions.Quote:
Originally posted by MacGyver
Christianity is all about forgiveness. Yes homosexuality is wrong, but it's just as wrong as any other sin, whether it be murder or pirating software; it doesn't matter. . .
People fail to realize is that The Word of God is not a supermarket where you wander through it selecting what food items you like and don't like. There is no middle ground. To some that may be harsh, but that is the reality. You can not go to chruch, say you are a Christian and be a catburgler. To live the way God wants you to, you have to do it full heartedly, not half-***. You will fail at somethings, and God knows this. He gives you A+ for honest efforts in your quest to live a spritial life based on his teachings. Does he expect you to be perfect? No. Does he expect you to give it your all? Yes.
Another problem is that people are just plain lazy and they do not want to find answers for themselves. They will accept any answer, especially if it is one that they like, to any question that they might have about the bible or anything in general. If one reads the bible, and has a large Webster dictionary standing by to lookup alterate definitions for words, you would be amazed at what you would discover. The word "Fear" is used many times in the Bible. Most of us assume that word means to be affraid. If you look up the word Fear in the dictionary it also says this: Profound reverence and awe. So when God said Fear me, he meant hold him in awe and reverence. A few decades ago, the word "gay" meant to be happy and in a good mood. Now we know it to be what it means today. To all of you lovely Brits out there, in your country's slang what does "fag" mean? I bet you it means something quite different here in the U.S.
The Bible was also written in a style of language that was common for the day, just like the confusing dialog of Shakespear was written the way it was.
Like Paraflyer said, the commandment Thou Shall not kill, is translated to be Thou Shall not murder. Killing and murder are 2 different things. Just like Sin and Living in Sin are 2 different things. One you can't help because we are all human. The other we willfully choose to do over and over again without thought or remorse.
And another thing, this has been an amaznig debate. One in which I am proud of the Windriver community for keeping this civil and in my view, educational. Also I thank NooNoo for keeping this thread alive. Some people would close a topic like this in a heartbeat.
Be safe everyone. Love one another as you would your children. We are all in the world together. (sappy I know, but if we all had this mentality, then the world would be better for ALL.)
:D :) :) :D ;)
Okay, here's the other problem I have with followers of the Bible.
Christianity is NOT the only religion that says You Must Repent and follow our one true God. It is merely one of the most popular.
So assuming one is to believe words like this, what makes Christianity better than any of the 1000s of others of religions and their variants out there?
What proves that Christianity is the BEST one? The Bible? Many other religions use it, or another holy book. How do we know which one is the best one?
Unfortunately, in the end, the only "proof" of God or your religion does come from inside you in the form of your own religious experiences.
Adept - you may be interested to know that while I am not a Christian, I do actually believe in a divine power, and have felt its presence within my life as well. I have had crises of conscience before and would have committed suicide long ago if I didn't have my own form of religion and spirituality and didn't believe there was some point to doing good over evil.
And I don't know that I consider this chess, either; chess is too confrontational. It seems unlikely but in a conversation like this, if the players are good enough, eventually they will BOTH win. That's what I would like to aspire to here. :cool:
I don't have access to all the info right now, but the case I'm thinking about involves an ex-gay man and an ex-lesbian woman happily married today and parents to 2 kids.Quote:
Originally posted by drewmaztech
Enlighten me on "curable".
I have a hard time grasping what you are saying since I don't believe in the god you believe in. I'm not trying to start anything ugly. I really do try to understand where you come from...
I'll try to get the official information out later 'cause I have to leave for the evening.
Absolutely. Did I give the impression that this was not the case? I apologize then. I thought I'd made myself clear on that.Quote:
...So what if someone decides to do their "own thing". They live their lives, you live yours. Be courdial when you meet in the shopping market aisle. All's well.
Their spirituality, or lack thereof, should never affect how I react to them. What I grok from the Bible is that I am to honor, respect and be of assistance to others regardless of their spiritual condition. I will speak, interact with and be of assistance to homosexuals, unwed mothers and pastors equally.
As a matter of fact, one of the people fondly remember from my previous job was gay. There was never any time that I lacked respect for him as a person. He was one of the best people at that crappy job. :rolleyes:
Disagreeing with a lifestyle doesn't mean wanting them dead. :rolleyes: :p
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Originally posted by MacGyver
Christianity is all about forgiveness. Yes homosexuality is wrong, but it's just as wrong as any other sin, whether it be ... pirating software;... it doesn't matter. . .
...hmmm, ask Apple about Bill Gates some time....:D
this has been an interesting thread. I don't think we changed anybodies mind but the exchange of ideas has certainly been exciting,
Thanks,
Orangeman:cool: