Best jabs at the convention

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Originally Posted by Zil

Thanks for proving my specific point:



You gave no reason why John Kerry should be president other than the reasons from my quote.

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Other then the very valid second reason, he isn't a liar, drunk, coke head that drives everything he touches into the ground while somehow taking credit for how stuff bounces back after he leaves.

Son of a bitch duped me with the whole WMD's thing, he lied, I fell for it, I won't let it happen again. Of course, now I am going to get everyone jumping in that has picked up their GOP talking points from the oh so "liberal media" telling me that I don't care about all the people that Saddam was killing, yada, yada, yada, while we try to forget that it was in fact about the WMD's esp when Powell went in front of the UN and the World and presented facts that they somehow existed and we should go to war to find them, then suddenly our intelligence is so bad that Saddam was able to sneak the entire supply out of his country and out of the hands of his armies that were being crushed.

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Originally Posted by RIOT

Does that mean that we'll never hear from the Democrats ever again about how Kerry went to Vietnam and was awarded some commendations? Are they going to focus on their issues, or lack thereor?

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You mean like no more preemptive wars? You mean like the economy? You mean like not only giving stock holders tax breaks?

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Originally Posted by jitBob

Wow. What do you have to say now Ya_Know?

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Any site that starts out as awolbush.com isn't going to give me any creditably balanced information. I offer only to use of a grain of salt...in that the references to the combat action of Kerry are not perfect accounts of his actions, but biased to present one side of a story to mask his image as a war protester. His protesting against the war showed his support of the troops. Those efforts undermined support for them throughout the nation, and was a gross display that can only be scrutinized—and as an effect of his possible motives his war record becomes a playing field to expose deceit.

We don’t know what happened in combat with Kerry, but we can presume that Kerry's motivation to leave the war is what drove him to submit for the decorations required to receive an early boat home. And it’s also possible that the actual accounts that went into the citations were grossly exaggerated, or perhaps largely fabricated. It has been know at times that recipients actually composed their citations by their own accounts, without scrutiny.

To come here and tell me he was a hero, but not even approach the thought that he was a cheat, liar, and a fraud simply because “he’s a war hero” doesn’t add up.

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Originally Posted by TripleRLtd

btw Ya_k,
this was NOT meant as a condemnation of what you said. Sometimes cooler heads DO prevail. What you said was NOT one of them,
Kerry did his part in a lousy chapter of OUR history. So, take him up on his issues, or lack thereof, but NOT his part in Vietnam. Not one of us can be proud of what we did to, or for, or against, Vietnam. None of us!

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So you are saying because he is a self proclaimed "war hero" that his record should go un-scrutinized, especially with the events that followed and the brief timeframe in which everything occurred...it is all very suspicious, and should be addressed. Simply because there are heroes out there that didn’t get the coverage that Kerry got, those men didn’t get medals for what they did, yet Kerry walked out of there within only a few months with a full chest, and a quick ride home to protest the war. Sorry man, it ain’t that cut and dry.

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Originally Posted by Ya_know

Any site that starts out as awolbush.com isn't going to give me any creditably balanced information. I offer only to use of a grain of salt...in that the references to the combat action of Kerry are not perfect accounts of his actions, but biased to present one side of a story to mask his image as a war protester. His protesting against the war showed his support of the troops. Those efforts undermined support for them throughout the nation, and was a gross display that can only be scrutinized—and as an effect of his possible motives his war record becomes a playing field to expose deceit.

We don’t know what happened in combat with Kerry, but we can presume that Kerry's motivation to leave the war is what drove him to submit for the decorations required to receive an early boat home. And it’s also possible that the actual accounts that went into the citations were grossly exaggerated, or perhaps largely fabricated. It has been know at times that recipients actually composed their citations by their own accounts, without scrutiny.

To come here and tell me he was a hero, but not even approach the thought that he was a cheat, liar, and a fraud simply because “he’s a war hero” doesn’t add up.

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I admit that site was biased but it had all the actual documents in pdf form, you just had to read them for yourself. Anyway, here is a snopes page that tells you that the claims about Kerry's war record being fishy are false.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/kerry/service.asp

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Originally Posted by Ya_know

Any site that starts out as awolbush.com isn't going to give me any creditably balanced information. I offer only to use of a grain of salt...in that the references to the combat action of Kerry are not perfect accounts of his actions, but biased to present one side of a story to mask his image as a war protester. His protesting against the war showed his support of the troops. Those efforts undermined support for them throughout the nation, and was a gross display that can only be scrutinized—and as an effect of his possible motives his war record becomes a playing field to expose deceit.

We don’t know what happened in combat with Kerry, but we can presume that Kerry's motivation to leave the war is what drove him to submit for the decorations required to receive an early boat home. And it’s also possible that the actual accounts that went into the citations were grossly exaggerated, or perhaps largely fabricated. It has been know at times that recipients actually composed their citations by their own accounts, without scrutiny.

To come here and tell me he was a hero, but not even approach the thought that he was a cheat, liar, and a fraud simply because “he’s a war hero” doesn’t add up.

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But we do know what happened. See my thread http://forums.windrivers.com/showthread.php?t=61616
We have the text from his decorations, the after action reports and the testimony of the men who were with him
And your saying that protesting the war undermined the support for our troops? Are you saying we shouldn't protest a war? That trying to end a war is not supporting our trooops? That supporting the war is supporting our troops?
I disagree with you 100 percent on this.
And to "not even approach the thought that he was cheat, liar and fraud" statement is possibly the result of the smear campaign against him.
There is no evidence in the military records and no evidence from ANYONE who was there that these events did not happen exactly as reported.
There are claims from people who were not there that they happened differently. These people originally said they were there. When proved they weren't they said the heard it from someone else.
BUT not one single shred of evidence exists to show these events did not happen exactly as stated in the text of the citations and the after action reports. And the men who were with him will be with him tonite in Boston.
I think you missed the boat on this one. I am surprised that you have taken this position. It seems unlike you.

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Originally Posted by techs

BUT not one single shred of evidence exists to show these events did not happen exactly as stated in the text of the citations and the after action reports. And the men who were with him will be with him tonite in Boston.
I think you missed the boat on this one. I am surprised that you have taken this position. It seems unlike you.

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I don't read that much on the subject that much anymore, because either side is slanted towards their own objective, and I haven’t seen the conclusive evidence for either side, so if it exists I overlooked it simply because I am bored with all of the back and forth. I tell you what, I'll just take your word for it and move on. :thumbs:

[currently reading some more]

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Originally Posted by Ya_know

I don't read that much on the subject that much anymore, because either side is slanted towards their own objective, and I haven’t seen the conclusive evidence for either side, so if it exists I overlooked it simply because I am bored with all of the back and forth. I tell you what, I'll just take your word for it and move on. :thumbs:

[currently reading some more]

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Fair enough. The links in my other post might help.

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Originally Posted by TripleRLtd

... Not one of us can be proud of what we did to, or for, or against, Vietnam. None of us!

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I am not ashamed of my behavior during the Viet Nam war. I protested the war in the moratorium of 1969 and I enlisted in 1972. I was fully against my countrys' policies in southeast Asia and more than enough of a patriot to do my duties. I can fully understand where John Kerry was coming from. To fight a war without conviction is not right or just.

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Originally Posted by Cleetus

Other then the very valid second reason, he isn't a liar, drunk, coke head that drives everything he touches into the ground while somehow taking credit for how stuff bounces back after he leaves.

Son of a bitch duped me with the whole WMD's thing, he lied, I fell for it, I won't let it happen again. Of course, now I am going to get everyone jumping in that has picked up their GOP talking points from the oh so "liberal media" telling me that I don't care about all the people that Saddam was killing, yada, yada, yada, while we try to forget that it was in fact about the WMD's esp when Powell went in front of the UN and the World and presented facts that they somehow existed and we should go to war to find them, then suddenly our intelligence is so bad that Saddam was able to sneak the entire supply out of his country and out of the hands of his armies that were being crushed.

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Again, no one gives me an answer that does not fall into the 2 reasons I said earlier. You guys love to bash Bush's "mistakes" and throw mud all over him, yet you offer no reason on Kerry's agenda or platform that makes you want to vote for the guy. Is there anyone who is positive about Kerry's campaign (in that there is no Bush-bashing, just praise for Kerry)?

I challenge techs, Cleetus or whoever to post a positive message (and a sample of the agenda) on why we should vote for John Kerry without bashing Pres. Bush (besides the fact that he was in Vietnam). Your former President couldn't even keep to the positive.

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Originally Posted by Zil

Again, no one gives me an answer that does not fall into the 2 reasons I said earlier. You guys love to bash Bush's "mistakes" and throw mud all over him, yet you offer no reason on Kerry's agenda or platform that makes you want to vote for the guy. Is there anyone who is positive about Kerry's campaign (in that there is no Bush-bashing, just praise for Kerry)?

I challenge techs, Cleetus or whoever to post a positive message (and a sample of the agenda) on why we should vote for John Kerry without bashing Pres. Bush (besides the fact that he was in Vietnam). Your former President couldn't even keep to the positive.

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A real Medicare prescription plan. A college tuition plan based on service so all who have the grades can go to college. Re-establishing positive ties with our former allies so they will work with us to fight terrorism. Tax incentives to keep jobs in America. Enlarged Armed Forces and increased benefits to our troops(esp. giving health insurance to the National Guard members who served in Iraq).
A rollback of the useless to the economy tax cut for the top one percent, thereby stimulating the economy. Extension of unemployment benefits which help workers survive while laid off.
And perhaps the most important. And end to the dishonesty of our Federal government that has grown to the point where it threatens democracy.
And that's just the first week.

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Originally Posted by Zil

Again, no one gives me an answer that does not fall into the 2 reasons I said earlier. You guys love to bash Bush's "mistakes" and throw mud all over him, yet you offer no reason on Kerry's agenda or platform that makes you want to vote for the guy. Is there anyone who is positive about Kerry's campaign (in that there is no Bush-bashing, just praise for Kerry)?

I challenge techs, Cleetus or whoever to post a positive message (and a sample of the agenda) on why we should vote for John Kerry without bashing Pres. Bush (besides the fact that he was in Vietnam). Your former President couldn't even keep to the positive.

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Well...

No, I don't feel like it, I hate Bush, he has failed his job, and I have already said I am still looking for a candidate.

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Originally Posted by techs

A real Medicare prescription plan. A college tuition plan based on service so all who have the grades can go to college. Re-establishing positive ties with our former allies so they will work with us to fight terrorism. Tax incentives to keep jobs in America. Enlarged Armed Forces and increased benefits to our troops(esp. giving health insurance to the National Guard members who served in Iraq).
A rollback of the useless to the economy tax cut for the top one percent, thereby stimulating the economy. Extension of unemployment benefits which help workers survive while laid off.
And perhaps the most important. And end to the dishonesty of our Federal government that has grown to the point where it threatens democracy.
And that's just the first week.

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Thank you techs, now if you keep this up, maybe more people will vote for your candidate?

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Originally Posted by Zil

Thank you techs, now if you keep this up, maybe more people will vote for your candidate?

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Up til now Kerry has been so busy fighting the smear campaign no one has heard his plans. Hopefully that will change after the conventions. btw the Dems seem to be taking the high road at the convention. Hope the Republicans do the same.

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Originally Posted by techs

Fair enough. The links in my other post might help.

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Ok, back to the smearing... :p

Techs, from your Snoops article: http://www.snopes.com/politics/kerry/service.asp

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Although there was no hard-and-fast rule, U.S. military procedure generally allowed any serviceman who received three Purple Hearts to request reassignment away from a combat zone, so Kerry talked to Commodore Charles F. Horne, an administrative official and commander of the coastal squadron in which he served. Four days after Kerry took his third hit of shrapnel, Horne forwarded a request on Kerry's behalf to the Navy Bureau of Personnel asking that Kerry be reassigned to "duty as a personal aide in Boston, New York, or Washington, D.C." Soon afterwards Kerry was transferred to Cam Ranh Bay to await further orders, and within a month he had been reassigned as a personal aide and flag lieutenant to Rear Admiral Walter F. Schlech, Jr. with the Military Sea Transportation Service based in Brooklyn, New York.

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The article is only stating raw fact, it doesn't cover everything that went on during this transition. Seems to me Kerry was looking for a fast boat out of country. (per your article) 4 days after he sustained his third injury his request to transfer stateside had already working its way well up the chain of command. He risked peoples lives with the beaching of the boat, although by their account seemed to be the best thing to do. He volunteering for "dangerous" missions, and otherwise went out of his way to prepare for an early departure. That doesn’t necessarily make him a war hero.

Kudos to him, if I were in a war and wanted to go home, I suppose I would try anything short of wearing a dress, and he picked an admirable way to do it. Had I been against a war, I too probably would have protested it. But I most certainly wouldn’t be comfortable calling myself a hero, or telling you that I support the troops already overseas if I was doing the things he did when he returned...to hear stories of how he “earned” these medals still doesn’t sit well with me. I still believe that he’s a fraud.