Pop Quiz!!!!!!!!

It is everyone one of our rights as an American, or a Brit, or an Afghan or whatever to stick up for our kind. Some by words, some by actions, some by silent consent. We do not have to all take up arms in order to protest, to contest or to defend ourselves. You say we should use words to resolve, then turn around and tell us that we must ourselves take up arms to show what we stand for.

You tell us time and time again that we must talk things through. And several of us have offered all the instances where America stood up and held peace talks. Peace talks that were cast aside as those who we fight against now talked out of both sides of their own mouths. You never once answered those allegations.

We mentioned the fact that they attacked our citizens, not our military, nothing other than pure attack on citizens. Please, in all your talk on how evil america is, show me where in the last century we went off and purposely went after the citizens of a nation, other than the dropping of the 2 bombs in Japan. Throughout the rest of our wars, our battles, our skirmishes, we sought to take out military sites only.

America is about freedom. We seek to spread the ideals of freedom to those without. Remember, just 2 years ago no woman went to the soccer game in Afghanistan except to be killed. Yes, we have made mistakes in the past, and will do so in the future. We are only human, but we will make mistakes, but we are not the same as those that we seek to change.

We understand that for us to be stronger, those other nations need to grow. They will not grow under their ancient, brutal regimes of fear, hate, and slavery.

This is not playtime at your local school. The strongest, the smartest, the quickest will survive. This is the real world. Evil exists in many forms depending on how it is viewed. History changes on how you percieve it through the morals and the values of your own time. We do not know how these actions will be percieved in the future, and we dare not wait to wonder how. We must look at now, we must look at our future as the future, not as the past.

This is only the tip of the iceburg, believe me. The tensions all over will only rise more and more. China and America, India and Pakiston, the Middle East and the Westernized Christian world. Things will only get worse before they get better. More wars will break out, and more blood will be shed. We must decide, now, right or wrong, what path we shall take in order to insure OUR survival through this.

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Originally posted by PacMan
I do feel that you are ill informed and are running more off of emption than anything else, however.
Ill informed? In some areas, maybe. But the areas where I am, I do my part and try to inform myself of both sides before I pass judgment. I see it more as we just see situations differently. Don’t be so hasty to pass judgment on my “inform” or intellect based on the error of my spelling. You said something about you once thinking the way I do or something of that nature and now you have elevated above my perception, viewpoint, which almost seems as if you have surpassed my intellect. Well, it’s not hard to surpass my intellect as most of you may agree but perception can be played with like chess. You have your perceptions and I have mine, but in information concerning this topic, I beg to differ with my lack of information.

So now, may I kindly ask you to inform me so I can achieve and elevate to your perception? Shed light to me, what I am so blind to see.

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I hadn't meant for you to take it like that. I dunno, maybe I did, but not like I'm better in any way. I did not wish to offend you and I hope you don't take it that way.

I don't think you are uninformed because you didn't spell properly, but because you didn't know the history of Israel. I though, am no expert and rely on news reports and talk show hosts to inform me. I think a good deal of what I know also comes from what King of Bletch (who seems to be much of an expert in this area) posted in a topic when a fellow from Egypt was in a similar position to you right now - defending your position against several others.

One thing I feel that you believe is that American foreign policy is unfair. Well, I concur. In the Regan era he was playing chess with the Soviets and many a small country fell victim to both of us. They wanted to spread their ideology and also needed resources from other countries. We wished to stop the spread of their ideology and wanted to keep them contained knowing that with the arms race they would collapse internally well before we would due to our stronger economy. It was wrong but oddly enough I don't hear a lot of hatred towards the former USSR even though they are just as if not more to blame for the situation. I accept that this whole time between WW2 and now was a bad time for a heck of a lot of people but I don't feel that one side or the other should feel sorry for vying for power. It's a rough world and only the most ruthless survive. i hate how petty and evil humanity can be but this is everyone that would do this and not just the USA.

I got a little off track but I think you get the gist of what I'm saying. Human nature can not be fought against. It must be accepted and then exploited else you will find that you are the one that has been exploited. You can raise the argument that being the strongest places the onus upon us to be the shining example but we would find ourselves quickly at the not so nice smelling end of the stick - so to speak.

I dunno, I don't think that I have properly communicated what I want to you but perhaps you. I'm not sure how to expand upon it though.

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Originally posted by PacMan
So all of you who are pro-war, do you have the courage to be in the infantry? Are the outcomes worth it? Will a damn useless war against some terrorist solve our problems?

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I missed this 1st time through. I tried to become a cavalry scout in the army (dumb in retrospect – lousy combat life expectancy) but was turned away for having asthma. I would have been a part of desert storm and from the stories I have heard I’m glad I was not a witness to the carnage.

I'm not pro war, never have been. Warfare though, sometimes is an evil necessity. Hitler counted on people remaining peaceful is the best example though there are not many.

Now of course I don’t compare Iraq 2002 with Germany 1942. I do wonder about the motivations of our government in attacking Iraq. I see there may be terrorist training camps and if chemical/biological/nuclear weapons are used on USA or Western nation cities we expect the weapons will originate from here. I suspect some ulterior motives though. There is the Jayna Davis argument that Iraqi agents may have had a hand in the Oklahoma city bombings and may be tied to terror activities here though oddly nothing but denial has come from the FBI or elsewhere. I have the article in MS Word if anyone wants to read it and I myself admit I have not read it al of the way through.

Another odd thing is that as mentioned above/previously is that a lot of the money for Al-Queda and a lot of the members come from Saudi Arabia. Why aren’t we looking at them??? What makes them our ally and Iraq not? Some vocalizations of their leaders or the actions of their people? I don’t get what is going on and feel like we are all missing a very large part of the puzzle with this area of the world. Something we are not allowed to see or something we are just not being informed of by the media.

If you want to argue that we should not attack Iraq, I might agree. I don’t see any rock solid proof that we should invade them and the government is not giving up any decent reason as well and thus I am suspicious.

Some by words, some by actions, some by silent consent. We do not have to all take up arms in order to protest, to contest or to defend ourselves.
Hmmm… let the kids in the ghettoes or ones who grew up deprived to go fight for you while you talk…

You tell us time and time again that we must talk things through. And several of us have offered all the instances where America stood up and held peace talks. Peace talks that were cast aside as those who we fight against now talked out of both sides of their own mouths. You never once answered those allegations.

umm.. this is where I “answered those allegations” :

What do we do when the communications break down? What do we do when the communications fail?
Why did it break down? Why did it fail? Did one side want more than the other side? Was the scale of the negotiation outweighed on one side? It must have been for it to have broken or fail. One side (usually the one with more power) wanted more from the resolution. Some may say “we deserve it, we have the power over them”. Well, that’s why we have these people committing “terrorism” against these kinds of arrogant views. If we did it fairly, I’m sure there would be a peaceful resolution.

now why don’t you all answer some of my questions to you. There are many..


Please, in all your talk on how evil america is, show me where in the last century we went off and purposely went after the citizens of a nation, other than the dropping of the 2 bombs in Japan. Throughout the rest of our wars, our battles, our skirmishes, we sought to take out military sites only.
You are putting words in my mouth. For me to say America is evil, I am generalizing all of America through all it’s differences. I never said AMERICA is evil. Know what you say before you say it. You heard the phrase “collateral damage” or how about civilian casualties? When I say 6,000 dead in Afghanistan, I am talking about civilians These seem to happen always in our wars. When we WILL go to war against Iraq, we will be bombing their cities.
If you don’t wanna talk, then don’t talk. But don’t ever expect other to carry out your dirty work of war!!!!!

America is about freedom. We seek to spread the ideals of freedom to those without.
:), you are the scholar of all other cultures and nations.

This is only the tip of the iceburg, believe me. The tensions all over will only rise more and more. China and America, India and Pakiston, the Middle East and the Westernized Christian world. Things will only get worse before they get better. More wars will break out, and more blood will be shed. We must decide, now, right or wrong, what path we shall take in order to insure OUR survival through this.

Ur a prophet now? Predict the future brotha. Don’t talk all these courageous words if you haven’t experienced combat. You expect others to do this for you. Kinda like a hypocrite.
You predicting WWIII? Well hell, forget all talks, lets just kill ourselves all so we can advance the species of humanity.


Plz stop saying “you keep saying this and that”. I answer you ALL’s questions, I have not had any of mine answered….

No offend taken ilovetheusers,
Just that I have been in this situation, well you know since you are in a similar situation. It’s sometimes hard to get your point across without offending someone. Trust me, I know. No offence taken brotha. Just was trying to defend myself and maybe learn your viewpoint.

BTW, did you guys know I'm an idiot with computers? I come here asking help like every other day... :P

Why is it everytime lately that I begin to compose a lucid response at windrivers, all hell breaks lose in the office and my train of thought gets broken faster than a Nick Nolte promise of staying clean and sober?

So my post is abbreviated to the following bullet points.

Hating Muslims= Simple Ignorance, all this does is alienate the silent Islamic moderates. The media is in a feeding frenzy, violence and death make great copy, and ther is NO SUCH thing as a unbiased news source.

Violent religous fanatics= teh die!!!1111one Negotiation with someone determined to become a martyr is less than useless. The only logical solution is to provide him with the death they seek and save innocent lives.

USA=lets work on reducing our dependance on foreign oil, research heavily alternate fuel sources, and make them VIABLE and competitive, thus depriving funding to freinds of terrorism and turning much of the middle east back into nomadic tribes murdering each other for goats and camels around rusting Rolls Royces and 100's of oil derricks. THIS would be revenge, if it is Revenge we seek.

Lets also remember the UN, despite its noble intentions, has basically become about as useful as a half assed Princeton debating society, but neither should we (the US) intentionally try to piss most of the world off, we ought to at LEAST enjoy the support of our Ally's in any actions we take.

Israel v Palestine v rest of the Middle east= I don't think, short of direct intervention of God/Allah/Moroni/Zenu/Bob/the Grays, will this be settled. But one side indiscriminately blows up children in buses in suicidal attacks, and the other side DOESN'T. I think I know which side I'M in support of. And YES I'm aware "not every Palestinian blows up blah blah blah.. "Islam is a religion of peace" so save the apologist rhetoric, see my first sentence in this paragraph" The hate of both sides is generational now, and it will take generations once a solution *whatever that may be* for it to be forgotten.

Saddam=Weapons of Mass destruction, no ****, he had them for DECADES, using them during the Iran/Iraq war and against the Kurds: Mustard Gas Anyone?. Yes he's a despicable tyrant and bloody thug. Besides, if Saddam starts crap, Israel will turn the middle east into a giant glass punch bowl, I don't think Saddam would be THAT stupid. He isn't going anywhere...he can wait, his time is still limited.

But, shouldn't we more worried about Al Quida getting Russian\Chinese nukes or Bio/Chem weapons?, or China getting loopy about Tawain or the paraniod regime in charge of North Korea? or the prospect of a massive famine in Africa?, the swell of fundamentalist Islamic violence in Asia?


But this all a moot point: Gulf War II appears inevitable. And I'm going to continue to pray for my buddy Robert (Army) and a former gf Kristen (USAF) and all of our fighting men and womens' safe return when this is done.

I'm sorry folks, I had a point and am trying not to ramble.


Remember, attack ideas, not people :D

I guess you cannot derive from my writings that I have been answering your questions. I do not have to or feel the need to spell everything out in black and white. I am not a prophet, I am only a lowly student of the world, its history and its politics. I am only someone who is proud to stand up and call himself an American. I am someone who has been to other nations that live in fear, and walked proudly stating that I am an American, that I am a Texan. Everywhere I go, people have been interested, the fear and the hatred has deep down been more from envy. We were the dregs of all societies that grouped together and sacrificed all for freedom. We have grown to a power hardly rivaled throughout history.
We are allowed to both hate and to love our country. In these days, for one to speak out like I have time and time again on these boards it is said that I am ignorant, it is said that I am out of touch.

I am an American, and are at war. Like it or not, we have been attacked time and time again by the exact same factions and those who harbor them. We can sugar coat and sugar coat, but the fact remains the same, WE HAVE BEEN ATTACKED.

I am being attacked here because of my love for my country. I have tried to show through philosophies of our elders, through views of each other, and through my own opinion. I am now attacked and told that I may not even question those around me or call for retribution for those who attacked my American brethren unless I pick up a gun. They step on my soil, I will pick up a gun and defend it. I cannot join the infantry, God saw to that when he twisted my back and made it grow wrong. Does that mean that I can no longer vehemently protect and find other ways to fight for America?

Honestly, I am done with this thread. I am done defending to those who will not listen.

Look Cleetus, my intention is/was not to attack you. Looks as if I did. I mean no attack against you in the basis of you loving your country or of being a Texan. I’m sorry for the events which accrued in leaving you with problems in your back. God does all for us to learn. I cannot say I know how hard it is to have you problem.

I simply differ in the way we are carrying out our approach in this situation. You have you approach which you think is the right approach and I have mine. We as guys in this forum, all our conversation doesn’t matter cause this will not change or strengthen our policies. The shot-caller at the end will do that for us. You can say I don’t listen to you views, but I thought I tried to answer them in my opinion based on many of my analysis.

I know you may be tired of this thread or just done with it.
But any questions you may have for me, I’ll do my best to answer them. If not, no problem. Thanks for the great conversations and yeah, I did get carried away at times. My apologies…

Cool, thanks for the reply, guess I got a little hot under the collar myself.

I guess I really have only one question. I ask it for all who want to answer. I know I am not smart enough to truly answer it perfectly, but would like some opinions as we all obviously see this differently.

When does enough become enough, or when do we decide that talk can no longer benefit?

Here is my view of racial profilling about this topic. Now I don't exactly have figues or stats but this is from what I know of the groups of people who commit certain crimes.

1. What class of people were the authorities looking for mainly when the Sniper search was going on? Answer: White males.

Why? Because this case was not being treated as a terrorist plot, but as a serial killer. White males have been the ones respinsible for MOST of the serial killings within the past 100 years.


2. What class of people are most likely to commit acts of sexual assault i.e. rape, incest, child molestation, pedophiles and so forth? Answer: White males.

Why? Because MOST of the sexual predetors of this century have been white males. Look at the catholic situation for example. How many priests are not white males?


3. What class of people are MOST likely to commit acts of terrorism? Answer: Muslim males. A subcategory if you choose Extremeists Muslim males.

Why? Because just look at the facts presented in the first post of this thread. You can no longer say arab extremeists muslim males because of what happened in Bali. But the extremeists muslim is still part of the equation.

Now there are execptions to the above examples. A women was recently executed for being a serial killer. There was a serial killer in Florida or Louisianna, somewhere down south that was black.

Now and again you will see other ethinic groups getting charged with a sexual crime

The terrorist crew will always have others that go freaky. Timmithy McVae, and that weird group in Japan that gasses the subways. Both weren't muslim in the least bit.

In the search for the minority, you will sometimes trample on the majority. Unfortunatly it is the way things are. But right now without having a spy plane on everyone of us in the world to monitor everything we say and do, it's the best we have.

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Originally posted by NeuromancerIV
Why is it everytime lately that I begin to compose a lucid response at windrivers, all hell breaks lose in the office and my train of thought gets broken faster than a Nick Nolte promise of staying clean and sober?

Israel v Palestine v rest of the Middle east= I don't think, short of direct intervention of God/Allah/Moroni/Zenu/Bob/the Grays, will this be settled.

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2 comments from the big ol' post. Sorry, it's the frivolous stuff.

Ain't that always the way? I just start writing in a word doc and post it when I get the chance. It's better to be writing in word when the boss comes over anyway.


Who's Bob?

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Originally posted by PacMan
No offend taken ilovetheusers,
Just that I have been in this situation, well you know since you are in a similar situation. It’s sometimes hard to get your point across without offending someone. Trust me, I know. No offence taken brotha. Just was trying to defend myself and maybe learn your viewpoint.

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;)

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Originally posted by ilovetheusers
2 comments from the big ol' post. Sorry, it's the frivolous stuff.

Ain't that always the way? I just start writing in a word doc and post it when I get the chance. It's better to be writing in word when the boss comes over anyway.


Who's Bob?

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Church of the SubGenuis :D :D Good Old J.R. "Bob" Dobs

Praise Bob!!

I'd link but there may be links to mature matter on the main site. That's not bad idea to use Word! *slaps side of head, hard* Typical of me to overlook something obvious...

Hail Eris!

all hail discordia

PacMan,
You talk and talk, and talk...You dance around a point, and quote others so that you can better emphasize a long post. I find, and I would be surprised if there were not others, your posts excessive and repetitive. If there were a point to be made, it becomes clouded in all of your antics. It was not an insult to call you a filibusterer, it was an effort to identify:

a. The use of obstructionist tactics, especially prolonged speechmaking, for the purpose of delaying legislative action.
b. An instance of the use of this delaying tactic.

Although you are not in legislation, you do run on long windedly (is that a word?). So I chose filibuster to characteristically label your tactics. Additionally, your efforts have manipulated this thread in ways that it ceases to present a clear discussion. What you have done all throughout this thread is brainstorm; that is OK, but you should take the time to go back, and edit out the weaker frivolous thoughts, so that only the strong will survive in the actual post. It would be in your best interest to make a point quickly, clearly, and move on to the next thought. This would help bring people to your table openly, instead of insisting that we read so much.

I never said that I didn’t trust my government; what ever gave you that idea?

1. Cleetus sorry to hear of your condition. I wasnt singling u out. I have just meet so many people who are pro war with no intention of themselves, a child, spouse, sibling, or friend actually fighting in a war they are encouraging. I am sure you wouldnt want a bro/sis or your child or a friend dying over there for Bush's pride.

2. Neuromancer for Prez!!!!!!!

3. Jediab....... Power to da' peps KILL WHITEY!!!!!






:D :D :D

Here's one from Boortz.

THOSE WONDERFUL PEACE LOVING MUSLIMS

The phone number for The Neal Boortz Show is 1-877-310-2100, The lines will be open this morning for Muslims to call and tell the nation what a wonderful, gentle, peace-loving religion you have. Come on. Give us a call. We’re listening.

We’re also watching. We watching your Muslim brothers in Nigeria rampaging through the streets of *****, randomly stabbing, slashing, burning, killing. Perhaps so many as 100 are dead. Hundreds more are injured. And just what was it that brought these gentle, peaceful Muslims to this level of rage? It seems some newspaper in ***** ran a column speculating that the Prophet Muhammad, and we know just how gentle and peaceful he was, might be interested in one of the Miss World contestants if he were alive today.

Well! No wonder Muslims are rampaging and killing! That is certainly an offence that demands the death of hundreds of innocents, isn’t it?

Here in the U.S. we were making jokes yesterday about what sort of car Jesus would drive. Were some offended? Surely they were. Did they take to the streets to kill innocents? Don’t think so. Well, I guess that’s just all the proof we need that Islam is the way to go, isn’t it? I mean, who would want to be a part of a religion that doesn’t engage in a good killing spree every now and then?

Yeah, You tell em, Silencio! There's no evidence whatosever that Christians have ever gone on mad killing sprees for no good reason!

Jesus drives a 72' Cadilac El Dorado convertable. I know cause "Jesus built my hotrod"


:D :D :D

All of the comparing the muslim acts of violence to the catholic chruch acts of violence is a very thin argument. Sure The Crusades resulted in a large body count that was started by the catholic church.

Sure the Salem Witch Hunts and Spanish Inquisition killed many, many innocent people, but those events happend how long ago? 100 years? 200 years? 300 years?

If you are to say that 300 years ago still counts in the agrument of today then you would have to go back even father to make an argument. How about 500 years? 1000 years? 2000 years?

We must now not like or trust anyone who happens to live in Rome because well, those Romans, they conquered most of the known world and made many different cultures slaves. If you are a christain you have to dislike the Romans because they killed off your messiah.

We must now not like or trust anyone from Eqypt. They conquered large portions of the middle east, and enslaved many different cultures. If you are jewish, then damn those Egyptians! They held your people hostage for many years before Moses came and got you out of there!

The same thing could be said for the Native Americans. Damn those European white devils! They came took our land, made treaties, broke those treaties, called us savages, treated us like savages, shoved us onto small seemingly insignificant resorvations to make us quiet and get upset if we say anything!

History is filled with many horrific events caused by people who did not seem to care to much about those that would be effected the most.

As time goes on, and the years pass, the wounds start to heal, and people get on with it go on with their lives. They forgive and teach their children to forgive.

Some choose not to let the hurting end. They choose to keep the wounds open and raw to fuel the hatred that they will pass to their children as they were tought as children by their parents, who in turn were tought by their parents.

Some don't want to hurting to stop, and that is the problem that we are dealing with.

Been lurking and reading this one for sometime now. Intersting debate. I just want to get back to the original poll questions. My only question define a Muslims extremist in re to racial profile.

Hmmm...I have a good friend from Kentucky who converted 17 years ago he's a nice white boy from London, KY.
Largest Muslim country? Indonesia. How do you profile a religion? Sorry but not all Muslims, by a long shot, are Arab/Palestinian/Persian. Intersting quandry we put ourselves in when we try to make the "enemy" fit into a specific box.

As to the Alaskan Pipeline if a 7.9 earthquake only knocked out a couple of supports then we ain't worried about some wimpy terrorist group. Besides if they were successful then the Greenpeace/Enviro wacko's would declare ecological jihad against the extremist and things would get real interesting. If that isn't bad enough if the damage was to prime hunting and fishing land then the NRA, Ducks Unlimited and others would declare a sportsman jihad and who knows where that will lead us, espcially if they team up with Greenpeace on the jihad. Can you say a sign of the Apocalypse!!! And probably the greatest terror of all the EPA and ADEC recovering clean up cost and freezing all of their "secret" American banking accounts! It may be more than a terrorist group wants to take on! ;)

The pipleline was built to withstand earthquakes, but it wasn't built to withstand terrorists. I didn't think they could possibly take out two of the tallest buildings in our country, but they did...if they were determined to attack it, I'm sure they could.

I agree with what you say about not putting all muslims in a box or stereotyping all Muslims to be the same, which leads to my question, if we don't put them all in a box, but they attack the pipeline and are successful, who is greenpeace and the NRA going to attack? That's the whole problem with terrorists, if you don't know who your enemy is, how do you attack them back?

Everything I'm hearing on the news leads me to believe the coming war will be an effort to free the people in Iran from their dictator and allow them to pursue democracy and capitalism.

http://www.plaudersmilies.de/lach.gif

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Originally posted by silencio
Everything I'm hearing on the news leads me to believe the coming war will be an effort to free the people in Iran from their dictator and allow them to pursue democracy and capitalism.

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Did you mean Iraq? I did hear people speculate that Iran might be next. That or just having a democracy run by the people might be contagious to the other countries in the area.

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Originally posted by ilovetheusers
Did you mean Iraq? I did hear people speculate that Iran might be next. That or just having a democracy run by the people might be contagious to the other countries in the area.

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LOL! Ya, typo.
:o

BTW, it looks like Ohio college students have just proven they're as dumb as Nigerian muslems.