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No one deserves THAT much torture! <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0">Quote:
Originally posted by drewber:
<STRONG>i say we should of chopped of his arms and legs, and let oprah sit on his face till he told us who else was involved
RATED M-17</STRONG>
I heard it on the news yesterday.
That son of a b**ch got what he deserved!!!
I feel sorry for those who died, back then.
I think the sick SOB got off way too easy. He shoudl have had an explosive surgically implanted in his body, and been blown up at a random time. Hopefully at a time that he might have been enjoying himself, like those children probably were.
And as fopr clean-up, make the ******* who got life for being in the conspiracy clean it up...
First off.
There is no excuse for what he did.
That being said, for all of you who talk about peaceful protest, if he had led a march or something like that how many people would be here discussing it right now?
Seriously, If your that fed up with a country then leave. You can waste your time protesting or worse blowing stuff up or you can just get on with your life and put whatever it is behind you.
For anyone who's feeling a little ticked at the government right now just chill come over to Canada and have a cool one.
Now as for the punishment, I think no matter how he was punished it wouldn't have rally been a punishment to him. When he decided he was gonne bomb something he knew there would be no turning back. He intending a kamakaze attack against the government and he accomplished his goal.
I think what sums it up best is 'there is no moral, it's just a bunch of stuff that happened' and we should just leave it all buried.
It's far to easy to label someone a monster and be done with it. I don't think he was 'evil'. He simply didn't have the restricting set of morals we all have, it's a judgement call and it was a bad one. But to label him a monster is to ignore the issue.Quote:
Originally posted by parning:
<STRONG>That monster got off WAAAAAAY too easy. All he did was go to sleep. I guess I'm rather medieval when it comes to my attitudes on executions - the punishment should fit the crime.
I keep reading about how people could see his point of view, or maybe how he wasn't all that bad. I have to disagree: he was a monster to the end.</STRONG>
Where do people get their morals? their parents or whoever raises them. Sure tv, media, internet, peers etc etc plays a part but the parents are the number one thing, they shape a childs morals before they are exposed to any of these other things.
This reminds me of soemthing that happened one day. I'm just walkin down the street and this little kid (must have been maybe 6) runs up to me with a peice of glass and says i'm gonna cut you and runs off. Now i wonder where the hell he gets it, maybe the act was picked up from tv but who set his morals so he could so easily be influenced. We can complain about violence on tv etc but even if it is eliminated children and people will be exposed to it soemwhere else. It is simply the reality of the world.
He was not a monster, simply a product of the world we live in and the world we all prepetuate every day. For whatever our own reasons may be.
I think i got off topic there but it needed to be said.
I have to agree with this.Quote:
Originally posted by Sowulo:
<STRONG>Clearly, if execution was any detriment, there wouldn't have been the need to execute so many people on such a regular basis. If incarceration was any detriment, all our jails wouldn't be overflowing with inmates.... </STRONG>
How many people are in prison because of the war on drugs anyway? How much $$ did the US spend on it? How much better off are we? When is Canada supposed to de-criminalize marijuana? (Supreme Court ordered Government to pass decriminalization legislation by certain date)
McVeigh was a bastard, but capital punishment is unacceptable in the 21st century, for so many reasons, including:
- Wrong convictions (have a look at the ratio of black to white people sentenced to death in many of the southern US states over the past 100 years)
- It's not a deterrent, as Suwulo pointed out. Incarceration may not be either, but it's not quite so final and provides for future rehabilitation when appropriate.
- Hypocrisy. "We're going to kill you." "Why?" "Well, you killed someone."
- "Justice", or possibly vengenence, which are probably the same thing in McVeigh's case, certainly isn't being done by any stretch of the imagination. How is putting him to sleep equivalent to blowing 168 (I think) people up? Why not let him rot in prison? Or torture him every day for the rest of his life (oh wait, pro-death penalty supporters would call that barbaric, I'm sorry).
The overriding problem is wrongful convictions. However satisfying it may be to prance around with a placard yelling "Die, McVeigh, die!", killing him will not bring any of the victims back. Therefore a single wrongful execution, in the entire history of the legal system, one PREVENTABLE, undeserved death, is good enough grounds to abolish the death penalty. The survivors and relatives of the victims need justice (and crave an absolution they sadly will never get), but killing him simply won't improve matters.
Even if you think death was an appropriate penalty for McVeigh, the issue of the death penalty needs to be looked at in a wider context, and the sooner the US does that, following every other country in the civilised world, the better.
Edited by Sowulo. No need to start flaming.....
When did this happen?Quote:
Originally posted by kingtbone:
<STRONG>
When is Canada supposed to de-criminalize marijuana? (Supreme Court ordered Government to pass decriminalization legislation by certain date)</STRONG>
<IMG SRC="smilies/confused.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/eek.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/confused.gif" border="0">
Quote:
Originally posted by Joker1:
<STRONG>
That being said, for all of you who talk about peaceful protest... </STRONG>
Is that directed at me?
I refuse to believe that the government can drive people over the edge. As a Libertarian, I believe that government is a necessary evil and the less government = less evil.
However, I would never let my frustration with our bloated government system lead me to perform a terrorist act that killed that many of my fellow Americans and their children. People who commit acts of extreme violence to make a political point are not better that the other terrorist organizations in the world.
The real sad part of all this is that Timothy McVeigh got to make his point three times. The first time was the bombing. The second was with the revelation about the FBI documents (a clerical error at worst). The third was with his own death.
I see two disadvantages with executing him NOW. 1. It's taken too long. By waiting seven years we have allowed him to become a martyr to people who sympathize with his view. 2. Any related information regarding conspiracies or anti-government organizations probably died with him.
I am ready to move on. Honestly, Monday was just another day to me. I did not watch the news coverage, I did not listen to the ridiculous play-by-play, and I am not watching any of the post-execution coverage. Frankly, I think the media has over-sensationalized the entire affair. I live in a state (Florida) the executes more criminals than any other state except Texas. It is generally accepted in my world that if you intend to kill somebody and you carry out that intention, you will pay for your crime with your life. The only point of contention is over how long and how many appeals. I am glad he is when he wanted to be and where he should be.
Quote:
Originally posted by Solid Cobra:
<STRONG>Last time we did this subject, I was one of the most vocal saying that McVeigh deserves to die a brutal, tortuous death. Well, after reading up a bit on the subject, I must say that I was wrong.
I'm not saying that I can justify his actions, and he DOES deserve to be punished, but from what I've read with interviews with McVeigh, I can't see him as the monster every portrays him to be. I instead see a bitter, bitter man who got so frustrated with the government that it drove him over the edge. McVeigh says the Gulf War, in which he served, was where it started, being forced to kill innocent women and children. Then with the Waco & Ruby Ridge incidents, he just couldn't take being ruled by a government out of control that slaughtered innocent people that didn't live up to its ideals.
McVeigh says he didn't realize the Oklahoma City building had a day care center, or he would've picked a different target. But by the same token, he resents the fact that when the US bombed the hell out of buildings in Iraq in the Gulf War, which also had day care centers, the government used the excuse that Iraq "was just using the day cares as a shield".
Before you flame, I'm just stating an opinion. I sympathize with McVeigh, but I believe he does deserve to be punished to the fullest extent the law will allow. I do feel sorry for the guy though, as I think that the double standards of the US government were what finally did him in.</STRONG>
If you are going to post such a controversial topic then expect to hear some things that you might not like. Yes I flame the liberal media but not the individual. Maybe it is because I went through HELL doing my part to keep this country free and proud and not to have America spit on and walked over. And especially from within! There was a song or recitation written by a Canadian back in the 60s in defense of our way of life. Listen to it sometime. By the way this is Flag day. What does this mean to you?Quote:
Originally posted by jbar1:
<STRONG>Edited by Sowulo. No need to start flaming..... </STRONG>
Are you out of your mind? Zillions? Not even millions.. l just have to weigh in (not just to you 'snoodle', but to a lot of people here)...l've seen a few numbers thrown around about how much it costs for each prisoner to be kept alive in jail. lt does not cost $100bil/year, nor does it cost $35grand, nor does it cost anywhere near a 6-digit figure. Yes, l've heard conservatives throw these numbers around too, but no, l dont just believe things without researching them for myself.Quote:
Originally posted by snoodle69:
<STRONG> why keep somone young like McVeigh in prison for the rest of his life, which barring a prison "incident", could be decades? this cost you and me, the taxpayer, zillions of dollars. </STRONG>
You lock a person in a cage. You feed them mass-produces cafeteria food (the same food that cost me $3/day in High School, and the school was turning a profit). You let them out of their cages to work out on freeweights, play basketball, run, read, and in some, ballroom dance, for about 90 minutes. The state doesn't pay the same amount for electricity, but there is only one light per cell anyway. The cell has sheets that need to be washed, and the need for toilet paper and soap. Point is: if people in NYC can pay $1000/month rent plus expenses, plus utilities, plus real food, plus travel, plus laundry, plus going out and paying for overpriced drinks on $25k/year, how the hell could a guy sitting in a cage incur anywhere near the same cost???
l simply add this because the biggest argument for the death penalty is cost...and, in 2001, thanks to the ridiculous ultra-liberal laws and civil-rights actions, an executed prisoner needs sanitary conditions to be killed. A real, competent physician. Physician's aides. VERY expensive drugs. Oh, and the are gauranteed 3 additional hearings, plus lawyers, plus court time. Read up on the subject somewhere other than ultra-rightwing literature and you'll find the REAL cost is about the same. lf you all want the death penalty for some kind of closure, thats fine. But please don't cite cost, and please dont cite "justice" (if you choose the latter, please ask the permission of the 35 people from 1993-2000 who were sentenced to that justice, only to later be found Not Guilty).
2¢ , nothing more.
I can't condone what TM did, I can understand that he was a product of a society that exsists all over the world, I don't think the real criminals were punished in the end TM was just the puppet who did the deed.
What worries me more is how everyone seems to sit back and declare he was a monster, but think of it this way, TM saw a threat to everything he loved, he saw an enemy and struck out at it as he was trained to do. To him the people in that building weren't human beings they were the "enemy" and the children killed were "collateral damage" this is why he appeared so monsterous.
Now could any of us, myself included not strike back if we felt beyond all else that what and who we loved was threatened with imediate and total destruct? If anyone here could honestly say they could they're a better person than I. Let me stress I don't agree with or condone what TM did, all I'm trying to say is perhaps there is an explanation other than the "he's a monster he deserves to die" theory, for if this is true aren't we all monsters?