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Originally posted by Ya_know
I have never seen so many thoughts without focus in one place.
You obviously didn't read my post then! :D
I think his basic point is that openly bashing all Muslims ages 17-40 isn't helping solve the problem. Stereotyping in general is bad and is unfair. That's about as focused as I can get, so that's all I got to say about that.
This is in no way an attempt to justify all that we are talking about here..but the battle with the muslim world has been going on forever..heres a bit of a papal letter:
"Although, O sons of God, you have promised more firmly than ever to keep the peace among yourselves and to preserve the rights of the church, there remains still an important work for you to do. Freshly quickened by the divine correction, you must apply the strength of your righteousness to another matter which concerns you as well as God. For your brethren who live in the east are in urgent need of your help, and you must hasten to give them the aid which has often been promised them. For, as the most of you have heard, the Turks and Arabs have attacked them and have conquered the territory of Romania [the Greek empire] as far west as the shore of the Mediterranean and the Hellespont, which is called the Arm of St. George. They have occupied more and more of the lands of those Christians, and have overcome them in seven battles. They have killed and captured many, and have destroyed the churches and devastated the empire. If you permit them to continue thus for awhile with impurity, the faithful of God will be much more widely attacked by them. On this account I, or rather the Lord, beseech you as Christ's heralds to publish this everywhere and to persuade all people of whatever rank, foot-soldiers and knights, poor and rich, to carry aid promptly to those Christians and to destroy that vile race from the lands of our friends. I say this to those who are present, it meant also for those who are absent. Moreover, Christ commands it.
"All who die by the way, whether by land or by sea, or in battle against the pagans, shall have immediate remission of sins. This I grant them through the power of God with which I am invested. O what a disgrace if such a despised and base race, which worships demons, should conquer a people which has the faith of omnipotent God and is made glorious with the name of Christ! With what reproaches will the Lord overwhelm us if you do not aid those who, with us, profess the Christian religion! Let those who have been accustomed unjustly to wage private warfare against the faithful now go against the infidels and end with victory this war which should have been begun long ago. Let those who for a long time, have been robbers, now become knights. Let those who have been fighting against their brothers and relatives now fight in a proper way against the barbarians. Let those who have been serving as mercenaries for small pay now obtain the eternal reward. Let those who have been wearing themselves out in both body and soul now work for a double honor. Behold! on this side will be the sorrowful and poor, on that, the rich; on this side, the enemies of the Lord, on that, his friends. Let those who go not put off the journey, but rent their lands and collect money for their expenses; and as soon as winter is over and spring comes, let hem eagerly set out on the way with God as their guide."
this was from 1035 A>D>
a link here:http://orb.rhodes.edu/encyclop/relig...ade_Intro.html
Brilliant post PAC.
So from I gather from your post then, PAC, is that we should blame our government for the world hating Isreal and Jews. We should also blame our government for Pearl Harbor, we wanted a war, so they let those boys die. Then we should also blame our government for everyone hating us, we should accept that it is our fault that no one will talk, or that they will stand by what they say. Everything would be fine if we just sat down and talked things over. And that Saddam and the others over there are just misunderstood, and that we are the evil ones in the world.
Sorry, I don't see things that way, and thankfully those in charge do not either. The world isn't peachy, the world isn't civilized. Sometimes violence is the only answer, and sometimes might just happens to actually make right. One of the problems in the world(esp the US) is that everyone wants everything so sugar coated and so easy that they have in the process put on blinders that have handicapped them from seeing what cold hard truths there really are in this life.
But this is all just my opinion.
I dont wish anyone to see some of things i have seen, but i feel it has made me a better person. I wish all those who encourage war but havent experienced it would get a taste of what its like. Im sure if the gung ho non participants could look in the face of a mangled 18 yo fellow countryman they would think twice about encouraging war. Its not Rambo people on both sides die. your enemy also has children and a mother and friends. War is necessary sometimes but should always be entered into cautiosly and responsibly.
Enough of my preaching sorry to sound morbid
IMHO if you are pro war u better be on your way to sign up for it, the US Military takes 18-35yo so only old farts have an excuse(im almost 35). If I felt strongly enough i would go back but even with all thats happened Im not convinced yet.
:D :D :D
Damn there's a lot of posts since I’ve looked in on this topic that seems to be all over the place. Let me correct your history.Quote:
Originally posted by goinpostal
Im no history expert but my understanding is the following:
After the Holocost in WWII the US and other countrys decided to give the Jewish a home land and israel was created or given to them it used to be called Palestine ie Palesteniens.
basically the muslims had thier land taken away and and it was given to someone else who i dont think they liked to begin with. Both religeons have Holy places in israel but they are now in possesion of only one govt which is not muslim.
We support Israel and defend them so by association we are an enemy.
As i said im no expert this is just my understanding of some history if I am wrong please feel free to correct me.
:D :D :D
Goinpostal - I'm correcting you.
The British owned the lands where Israel now is. The Palestinian government had been non-existent for years and years. The Jews bought this land and moved there as it's their holy land. The fought a war against the British to be a sovereign nation and I think the US was the 1st to recognize them. Since then we have backed them with weapons and medicine and whatever they have needed.
The Palestinians are really Arabs who have adopted the moniker of Palestinians as it makes people think that they once had a thriving country before Israel was a nation. This isn't true in the slightest way. The Jews and the Arabs live in proximity to each other and peaceably for the most part. It is Hezbulah (sic?) that has launched a terror campaign against the Jews and continues to bomb and kill to this day. thousands of Israelis have died and they show remarkable restraint in the face of this IMHO. They could easily wipe the terrorist leadership out should they choose.
They do not do so for several reasons I do not understand fully. One thing to note is that they are constantly in negotiation with Arafat and those who would call themselves Palestinian. From what I understand - the Jews have offered several, I don't know, treaties?, pacts, whatever and it is continually the Palestinians who walk away from the tables at the critical moment or a few (well a dozen) bombs explode somewhere causing Israel to adopt a more hardline stance.
When the Arabs elect moderates into office who support living in peace, they get assassinated.
What you are looking at is a group who do not want to reach a peaceable solution. They want 1 thing and it is to drive the Jews out of Israel. You are dealing with racism and hatred and reason has failed time and time again but is continually pursued due to pressure from well meaning folks who think that you can talk out problems with everyone. The terrorists are driven by men who want power and use religion as a veil to get troops for their war.
So, for those who want talks, the two sides have been talking for years and nothing has come from it and never will and it's not because of the USA or Israel or whoever else we want to blame for the problems of the region.
Not too many people are actually pro war. They're anti death. It's simple. Extremists are locked into one belief. The belief may be just, or it may be wrong. The guy who is Pro-life has the right idea, the guy who guns down an abortion clinic is a sick bastard who should be either thrown in jail for the rest of his life or excecuted depending on the state. That is intolerable behavior.
The guy who hates Americans is free (in this country) to his opinion. The guy who flies an airplane into buildings that kills innocent people and children, the guy who told him to do it, the guys who pay him and his thug partners, and the guys who gives them a safe place to live knowing full well what they stand for and what they will do need to be stopped from doing more damage by any means neccessary.
Innocent people die. The difference is that the Extremists do it intentionally without exploring other options because they don't care.
And I'm sorry, but it I see an arab man and a man of another nationality at an airport, I am going to be suspicious of the arab man. It's sad, maybe it's wrong, but it's a$$holes like the muslim extremists that have made me feel that way. I can't just ignore everything that's going on in the world because someone's 'feelings might get hurt'. That's just assinine (sp?).
And as far as us preventing this from happening? It's never happened before! How would we know 100% how to stop it? Shoot down a plane full of innocent Americans when we have absolutely no reason to believe the plane is going to crash into a building? Stop the terrorists at the airport for acting suspicious? But, if we do that, we might accidentally stop the wrong person. Then we would be considered racist bigots. Give me a break.
Very educational as i said i am no expert but wasnt there a palestine in the past may be a long time ago but im pretty sure there was a country at one time.found it!! here is a link
this might help everyone this explains alot
http://www.un.org/Depts/dpa/ngo/history.html
enjoy the read
:D :D :D
The Jews booted the Brits out to have their own nation and I think you mean Ottoman Empire. The land was bought and paid for then the nation fought for.Quote:
Pac and a whole buncha people wrote
What should Isreal do? And as their ally, do we not help them, do we not understand what is happening as we have hosted many, many talks between both sides?
goinpostal answered it..
After the Holocost in WWII the US and other countrys decided to give the Jewish a home land and israel was created or given to them it used to be called Palestine ie Palesteniens.
basically the muslims had thier land taken away and and it was given to someone else who i dont think they liked to begin with. Both religeons have Holy places in israel but they are now in possesion of only one govt which is not muslim.
We support Israel and defend them so by association we are an enemy.
As i said im no expert this is just my understanding of some history if I am wrong please feel free to correct me.
1948, England gave the Jews Israel. They hold Jerusalem (city of peace) which is scared to Jews, Christians and Muslims. After years of being subjected to the holocaust all through our school life, we have developed this subconscious sympathy for the Jews. Now don’t get me wrong here now, it was a tragedy what they went through, but they are a few compared to what poor people are subjected to around the world, many of which is funded by our govt. Obviously, these continuous holocausts of other groups of people are unfamiliar to us cause our media or govt has decided they are not important. I mean Kosovo was finally covered after the US decided it was in their interest to stop the genocide being committed over there. I mean if you do your research (if you have the interest to do it), you can find a lot of sickening events going on with many disfavored groups.
Jerusalem was last held by the Autumn Empire. Briton took it from them and then gave it to the Jews. So lets Mexico take Arizona and give it to say Panama cause they felt sorry for them..(I’m sure I’ll get ppl saying this is not a good analogy again )
So why didn’t England keep it? It is the holiest site for Christians.
When Muslims ruled Jerusalem from ancient times to modern, Christians and Jews lived in Jerusalem peacefully. This happened for centuries. Now we have a different group of people in power of Jerusalem and we got problems all the time there. You can make the argument that the Muslims just doing all the bombing there from hate or just they can’t live under Jewish rule in Israel.
Say you had a piece of land from your father’s father. Govt comes and takes land from you and gives it to some other people who you know.
So what would you if your next door neighbor (the new people) start moving his/her fence over more and more to use more of what land is left to you? “Your not using it”. So you tell them to stop, but they don’t and the govt has their back in this matter. You are now occupied. They keep inching more and more… You better not get mad!! Don’t be committing no terrorist acts!
I say England should have kept the land and open it up and a holy land to all three faiths. No ownership of this land in the form of resources or political gain. Just let it be a free open country managed primarily by England and any other countries who wish to donate funds to it. People of the three faiths can come to Jerusalem, The city of peace.
But on my last note, it does belong to the Muslims, just like the Americas belonged to the native Americans.
I can and have made the argument that it is the side of the table that happen to be muslim that create most of the problems. Until I hear someone provide decent evidence that states the contrary, I will be of that opinion.
As for a neighbor taking your land as an example. imagine your neighbors ganging up on you, trying to take your land and kill your family and then whining when you push them back and take some of their land. You now have an accurate description of what is happening. Israel has not given back all land taken in wars with it's neighbors because of the threat they pose to them and the multiple examples of aggression from them.
In reference to keeping the holy sites open - well Israel does a great job of that. I doubt that folowers of other faiths besides the muslim religion would be allowed in should the plaestinians rule the area. If you are looking of religious tolerance I would recomend looking into the dynamiting of the ancient buddhist statues in afghanistan. A fine example of religious tolerance.
I see that you really want to side with the little guy here and want to oppose any argument that supports the USA or it's allies. I understand and did feel the same way at one time. I saw your reply earlier and do not have any lack of respect for you because you hold a different opinion. I do feel that you are ill informed and are running more off of emption than anything else, however.;)
I don't think I said that they were never a nation. I agree that they were. Just not for a long time - since before the Ottoman Empire. It's kind of like Pennsylvania complaining that they are oppressed by the American government and stating that they were really Brittish.Quote:
Originally posted by goinpostal
Very educational as i said i am no expert but wasnt there a palestine in the past may be a long time ago but im pretty sure there was a country at one time.found it!! here is a link
this might help everyone this explains alot
http://www.un.org/Depts/dpa/ngo/history.html
enjoy the read
:D :D :D
Good analogies there mr. aqua teen hunger force agent.Quote:
Originally posted by meatwad
Not too many people are actually pro war. They're anti death. It's simple. Extremists are locked into one belief. The belief may be just, or it may be wrong. The guy who is Pro-life has the right idea, the guy who guns down an abortion clinic is a sick bastard who should be either thrown in jail for the rest of his life or excecuted depending on the state. That is intolerable behavior.
The guy who hates Americans is free (in this country) to his opinion. The guy who flies an airplane into buildings that kills innocent people and children, the guy who told him to do it, the guys who pay him and his thug partners, and the guys who gives them a safe place to live knowing full well what they stand for and what they will do need to be stopped from doing more damage by any means neccessary.
Innocent people die. The difference is that the Extremists do it intentionally without exploring other options because they don't care.
And I'm sorry, but it I see an arab man and a man of another nationality at an airport, I am going to be suspicious of the arab man. It's sad, maybe it's wrong, but it's a$$holes like the muslim extremists that have made me feel that way. I can't just ignore everything that's going on in the world because someone's 'feelings might get hurt'. That's just assinine (sp?).
And as far as us preventing this from happening? It's never happened before! How would we know 100% how to stop it? Shoot down a plane full of innocent Americans when we have absolutely no reason to believe the plane is going to crash into a building? Stop the terrorists at the airport for acting suspicious? But, if we do that, we might accidentally stop the wrong person. Then we would be considered racist bigots. Give me a break.
Thank you ILTU, I appreciate that. :D
;) :DQuote:
Originally posted by meatwad
Thank you ILTU, I appreciate that. :D
Good avatar too.
Hey, I just posted that b/c I thought it was funny... Glad to see it has spawned such wonderful conversation though...
The reason so many other countries hate us is our bully of the playground foreign policy. You would hate America too if you lived in some of these places that we use for our own gain, then turn around and bomb (i.e. IRAQ)- we were best buds with Saddam when IRAN was a scarier threat). We deserve all the terrorist attacks we get. Sorry but we kill out of greed and lust for money; just ask a Native American (IF YOU CAN FIND ONE!) Everyone acts so surprised and pi55ed off when it happens to us, well I say we had it coming. It blows that innocent Americans had to die, but that is a drop in the bucket compares to all the innocent peoplt that have died to make us richer and more powerful... The US is a hypocritical killing machine run by the Corporations that have come to power since the industrial revolution.
But personally, I think its cool if we kill innocent people around the clock, around the world; so long as my military can protect my borders and my gas stays affordable. Its a dog-eat-dog world out there, might as well enjoy living in the richest, most powerful empire in history. I consider myself lucky to have been born here, and I am proud to call myself an American.
Quote:
Originally posted by Stanley_Kubrick
Hey, I just posted that b/c I thought it was funny... Glad to see it has spawned such wonderful conversation though...
The reason so many other countries hate us is our bully of the playground foreign policy. You would hate America too if you lived in some of these places that we use for our own gain, then turn around and bomb (i.e. IRAQ)- we were best buds with Saddam when IRAN was a scarier threat). We deserve all the terrorist attacks we get. Sorry but we kill out of greed and lust for money; just ask a Native American (IF YOU CAN FIND ONE!) Everyone acts so surprised and pi55ed off when it happens to us, well I say we had it coming. It blows that innocent Americans had to die, but that is a drop in the bucket compares to all the innocent peoplt that have died to make us richer and more powerful... The US is a hypocritical killing machine run by the Corporations that have come to power since the industrial revolution.
But personally, I think its cool if we kill innocent people around the clock, around the world; so long as my military can protect my borders and my gas stays affordable. Its a dog-eat-dog world out there, might as well enjoy living in the richest, most powerful empire n history. I consider myself luck to have been born here, and I am proud to call myself an American.
Dude... You're just damn weird. You know that, right? :D