Marriage in general - a rough essay against.

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Originally Posted by Wayward Clam

...You see, to me marriage sounds a lot more self-centered than what I would define as true love and respect for someone else. Marriage is you saying to someone else, "I don't trust you to love me enough, so I need rules, laws, traditions, social pressure, and your personal vow of honour before the God you believe in to make sure that you don't betray me."

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I see it as wanting to proclaim to the world that you love someone so much you need to express it to the world. That you love them so much that you swear before a higher power and all people that you are devoted to this one and always will be. It is not about trusting them, it is about giving to them.

"But if you look at these 1,163,000 people that got divorced JUST in 1997, JUST in the United States. That's 1,163,000 people who went into their marriage thinking that the marriage was going to work out."

Are you sure that isn't 1,163,000 people divided by two and actually means 581,500 couples got divorced?

If I seem an optimist, its' because I am. My grandparents were faithfull to each other, my parents were faithfull to each other and my wife and I are following in their footsteps. Takes work but the rewards are always worth the effort. My 2 cents.

My GF is pregnant. I've always wanted a family of my own. Mom and Dad are still happily married. I'm a bit old to be starting out but what the hey. So we're planning a wedding. I'm looking forward to swinging on the front porch dangling grandkids on my knee. Or at least I was until Y'all started scaring me.

I think the real problem is people are so self indulgent that they can't remain commited to their vows when (not if) they fall out of love. If you and your spouse are serious about your commitment you'll stick with it until you fall back in love again. Most successful couples I know have fallen in and out of love several, even many times.

Marriage is not about love, two people in love do not need marriage to stay together. Marriage is about commitment.

Thats my story and I'm stickin to it!

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Originally Posted by cisco2

My GF is pregnant. I've always wanted a family of my own. Mom and Dad are still happily married. I'm a bit old to be starting out but what the hey. So we're planning a wedding. I'm looking forward to swinging on the front porch dangling grandkids on my knee. Or at least I was until Y'all started scaring me.

I think the real problem is people are so self indulgent that they can't remain commited to their vows when (not if) they fall out of love. If you and your spouse are serious about your commitment you'll stick with it until you fall back in love again. Most successful couples I know have fallen in and out of love several, even many times.

Marriage is not about love, two people in love do not need marriage to stay together. Marriage is about commitment.

Thats my story and I'm stickin to it!

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https://forums.windrivers.com/images.../2006/04/1.gif

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Originally Posted by Wayward Clam

It does indeed appear to be dependent on ones definition of morality...

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And so we'll agree to leave it at that, OK?

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Originally Posted by Wayward Clam

...You see, to me marriage sounds a lot more self-centered than what I would define as true love and respect for someone else. Marriage is you saying to someone else, "I don't trust you to love me enough, so I need rules, laws, traditions, social pressure, and your personal vow of honour before the God you believe in to make sure that you don't betray me."

If you can't be secure in your partner's love without that, how do you know that they really love you?...

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That's another point where it appears we have a radically different perspective.

I did not marry to ensure that my wife-to-be would be legally obligated to love me, I married because, regardless of how she conducted herself (aside from sexual impurity, of course) with me I was offering her my love. MArriage for me was never a question of "What can I get from my spouse", it was "What can I offer my spouse," and this despite the very real fact that my own desires and needs could go unfulfilled.

I've always lived by the idea that love gives. It never takes, or even expects reciprocity, if it is truly other-centered.

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Originally Posted by Wayward Clam

But if you look at these 1,163,000 people that got divorced JUST in 1997, ... How do you know, when considering entering marriage today, that you aren't one of these people?...

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For pretty much the same reasons stated above. I entered into mariage exepecting to offer myself to my wife so that her needs and desires could be met.

It is true that I have no control over whether or not she will remain faithful to me and her marriage vows. But as far as I'm concerned, I will respect the commitment I took publically and before God.

No one can predict the future, that's true.

But I can at least take the decision that I will attempt everything in my power to make things work. So far, so good - even through some pretty tough times. Every hurdle we overcome makes us that much closer.

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Originally Posted by Wayward Clam

Where do you get the idea that such a relationship could not include lasting intimacy or personal responsibility?

(snipped because everything wouldn't fit into one post)

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Simply because it's not the way humans work.

We can love a number of people simultaneously, that's true.

It is the utmost intimacy than to allow someone into our inner sanctum. Such a thing can be shared between 2 people, creating a bond. But that bond msut be broken with one person if it is to be created or re-created with another.

I feel that this description is vaguely inadequate, but I can't concentrate enough to explain it further at this time. I'll try later, if you want to continue that way.

My wife and I have been married 21 years. My parents have been married for 47 years. Her parents have been married for 41 years. All four sets of grandparents (now all deceased) were first marriages that lasted until death.

I don't say these things to be sanctimonious, only to point out that my view of marriage and family is shaped by my family history, as I think most people's are. When someone has a family history (especially the previous 2 generations) that is filled with divorce, multiple marriages, abandonment, etc. their viewpoint can't be helped but be shaped by that history also.

In my family history, I'm sure there have been imperfections, moral failures, and many other challenges. Some problems were overcome, some were just buried and put aside for perceived greater good (children, etc.) while the pain remained (though it might dull over time).

Successful marriage means a lot of give and take, mostly give, unselfishness, and internalization of the concept (biblically stated here) that two must become one. Thus your concern for your spouse, and your interest in them is more akin to concern for and interest in preservation and well being of your own head, arm, leg, etc.

Sure, sometimes an amputation is necessary when it comes to the point of threatening death to the whole "body", but I certainly would try a lot of measures to cure or rehab it first!

But you also have to take care of yourself. ONe of the ex's and I's biggest downfalls was that we spent so much time trying to make the other happy, that we ignored our own happiness, our own needs. We didn't realize it until way too late when resentment had already set in.

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Originally Posted by Coaster Creator

I'm getting married next month.....you guys trying to deter me??

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Dont forget the pre-nuptual agreement - "What yours is mine and whats mine is mine" :D

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Originally Posted by Wayward Clam

How so? I'm not following you. I don't believe that a single, exclusive union CAN provide you with this ultimate security you are describing... and that if you are feeling that in your life, then it is an illusion, albeit a pleasant one and hopefully one that will turn out to be true in your case. Logically, it seems to me that having two partners would INCREASE your chances of having emotional security...

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That's quite true, actually. You did good in pointing that out. No human relationship can attain that particular level of "ultimate" intimacy that, unfortunately, we so badly need.

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Originally Posted by Wayward Clam

..."Demonic Males", found at Amazon at http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...01521?v=glance. This book will mean nothing to you unless you believe in evolution. It is primarily more about violence in humans / chimpanzees than sexuality or love, but a great deal of related information in it helped form my opinions of what is "natural" in human instincts. Academic "authorities" DO have a lot of disagreements about the information found in this book and the slant it is written with, as the reviews at Amazon will illustrate.

The last one that comes to mind is Desmond Morris' series "The Human Animal." I am sure this won't be hard to find for anyone who goes looking for it...

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I like the fact that you used the phrase "believe in evolution" that way. https://forums.windrivers.com/images.../2005/03/1.gif

As a matter of fact, there is a strong corellation between sexuality and, if not violence, then aggressivity for males. As for the "natural" order of things, I've never given naturalism much thought, as it doesn't appeal to me as an explanation of life and human behaviour. I tend to think that this particular link between sex and aggressiveness stems from other sources.

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Originally Posted by Wayward Clam

...Well I have no idea what you are talking about. It seems to me that having three or more adults in a home would result in more time, attention, money, love, and support to be spread around whatever kids are there... until you give me more specific objections it is hard for me to either agree or disagree with you.

I'll give you an example from my own life. My mother divorced twice, my father only once, both are currently married. This gives me a total of FIVE parents. Yes, it has been a rocky road. No debate there! But now... I have five people who consider me a son... who are there to give me the love, support, help, advice, whatever, that I need... where most "normal" people only have two, possibly less.

How can this be a bad thing?

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Just look at you! https://forums.windrivers.com/images.../2005/03/1.gif

I'm just kidding with you, Clammie. https://forums.windrivers.com/images.../2005/03/1.gif

For a child to benefit from this type of environment, all "parents" would have to adhere by the same principles, philosophy/spirituality, and child-rearing methods.

Having 2 parents is already a complex thing to deal with if they have differing values, I can only assume that the situation would get exponentially more complicated with each "parental figure" added to the mix.

It's not just a question of being loved, it's also a question of discipline and how it is applied in that child's life. I can hear it now: "I don't hafta lissen to you 'cuz you ain't my mom!" Power struggles within the "union" and the lack of established limits to the union would tend to make the child insecure at best.

It would seem to me that the problems would be self evident from a child-raising perspective. I'll try to find some haqrd facts to back that up.

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Originally Posted by Cleetus

But you also have to take care of yourself. ONe of the ex's and I's biggest downfalls was that we spent so much time trying to make the other happy, that we ignored our own happiness, our own needs. We didn't realize it until way too late when resentment had already set in.

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I'd say that the problem was more one of lack of communication - letting the other know how you each felt before the resentment set in.

Me and the wife had a rocky start during the first 3 years simply because I was too self-centered (my career, my hobbies, my "alone time") to see that it was killing our relationship.

Now I make sure that her "love tank" is running on full so that I can enjoy time on my own, doing my own activities. Works out great.

Investing yourself is never a waste. And as long as you keep the communication channels open and let the other know how you're feeling, or how you'd like to see the relationship go, then a lot of wounds are avoided before they get too infected.

Just don't nag. Nobody likes nagging. https://forums.windrivers.com/images.../2005/03/1.gif

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Originally Posted by jitBob

Are you sure that isn't 1,163,000 people divided by two and actually means 581,500 couples got divorced?

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Tell me... how is "1+1" different than "2"?

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Originally Posted by a d e p t

Such a thing can be shared between 2 people, creating a bond. But that bond msut be broken with one person if it is to be created or re-created with another.

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Apparently we have had different experiences in this matter in life.

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Originally Posted by a d e p t

For a child to benefit from this type of environment, all "parents" would have to adhere by the same principles, philosophy/spirituality, and child-rearing methods.

Having 2 parents is already a complex thing to deal with if they have differing values, I can only assume that the situation would get exponentially more complicated with each "parental figure" added to the mix.

It's not just a question of being loved, it's also a question of discipline and how it is applied in that child's life. I can hear it now: "I don't hafta lissen to you 'cuz you ain't my mom!" Power struggles within the "union" and the lack of established limits to the union would tend to make the child insecure at best.

It would seem to me that the problems would be self evident from a child-raising perspective. I'll try to find some haqrd facts to back that up.

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This is another area where I disagree with "conventional wisdom" on parenting. Since when is it so important for parents to be united in everything? Personally it makes MORE sense to me that the parents should have contrasting styles of dealing the the child. Two heads are better than one. You can play "good cop/bad cop" with them... use whichever parent's style is more appropriate for any given situation. The child's mind is broader, they have more experience relating to different kinds of people... Also, in today's society it has become more important to have your child's trust as they age... if the parents have different styles of relating to the child, the child is twice as likely to be able to trust one of them.

Speaking as a non-biological father, if my son ever gives me the "you're not my real dad so I don't have to listen to you" (and I think that he is likely to try that in his teenage years), I am going to answer "I don't care. You still get the consequences for not listening, whether you think you deserve them or not."

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Originally Posted by a d e p t

Now I make sure that her "love tank" is running on full so that I can enjoy time on my own, doing my own activities. Works out great.

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Ah, I see you've read that book too, huh? :D

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Originally Posted by Wayward Clam

...Ah, I see you've read that book too, huh? :D

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Wife made me. https://forums.windrivers.com/images.../2005/03/1.gif


Actually, I read the one for adults and the other one for kids, and I'm waiting for the teenager one to come out.

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Originally Posted by Wayward Clam

Tell me... how is "1+1" different than "2"?

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I think what he was trying to imply was that it wasn't 1 million marriages, but 5 hundred thousand. The point being that for every two, there is only one failure. It makes sense from both angles however, and the number is staggering either way.

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Originally Posted by Wayward Clam

Tell me... how is "1+1" different than "2"?

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Is the glass half empty or half full? Ya_Know understands.

My two Bits..

Ok yeah one in two marriages fail ..why?????????

ask Britney Spears...........

I have lots of thoughts on Marriage..especially at the moment..but this morning I am a bit too emotional to fill this thread with my head space....maybe later today when it doesn't hurt so much to breathe........

but that's marriage I guess......

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Originally Posted by Mayet

My two Bits..

Ok yeah one in two marriages fail ..why?????????

ask Britney Spears...........

I have lots of thoughts on Marriage..especially at the moment..but this morning I am a bit too emotional to fill this thread with my head space....maybe later today when it doesn't hurt so much to breathe........

but that's marriage I guess......

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You doing ok Mayet? Don't want my favorite Aussie upset now. :)