Warchalking??

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June 24th, 2004, 09:18 AM
GrandDad

Quote:

Originally Posted by confus-ed

My $0.02 worth !

'Theft' is the act of permanatly depriving someone of something, so its only a 'crime' if the paying user wanted to use it while the thief was in ... if you made any attempt to secure it at all, then 'the tresspasser' committed a crime (under 'whatever' privacy laws apply where you are), if you didn't, then as long as they don't 'attack' your system at all & you weren't trying to use it yourself (at that time as bandwidth is a momentary thing - it doesn't 'accumulate'), then they didn't (commit any crime) 'technically' ...

Is that how the law on Theft reads where you live ?
June 24th, 2004, 09:45 AM
confus-ed

Quote:

Originally Posted by GrandDad

Is that how the law on Theft reads where you live ?

Yup & its also the dictionary definition ..

Quote:

Originally Posted by Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary

Etymology: Middle English thiefthe, from Old English thIefth; akin to Old English thEof thief
1 a : the act of stealing; specifically : the felonious taking and removing of personal property with intent to deprive the rightful owner of it b : an unlawful taking (as by embezzlement or burglary) of property
2 obsolete : something stolen
3 : a stolen base in baseball
June 24th, 2004, 09:55 AM
GrandDad

Quote:

Originally Posted by confus-ed

Yup & its also the dictionary definition ..

Sorry for my confus_ed'ness , you said ;

'Theft' is the act of permanatly depriving someone of something'

Webster says ;

"1 a : the act of stealing; specifically : the felonious taking and removing of personal property with intent to deprive the rightful owner of it b : an unlawful taking (as by embezzlement or burglary) of property"

the key word being 'permanatly'

can you un'confus_ed me young sir ?
June 24th, 2004, 11:27 AM
confus-ed

Quote:

Originally Posted by GrandDad

..the key word being 'permanatly'

can you un'confus_ed me young sir ?

Yeah so if you take it back or it was never 'required' because no one was using it, then its not 'theft' ..

Originally we talking about 'theft of service' well if I didn't want that service at that time & you got it instead, you didn't steal anything .. because you never deprived me of what I never wanted to use, as I didn't want to use it so you can't deprive me of something I don't want ..

Its obviously 'somehow wrong' but just what 'crime' is committed when there is no damage done, or attempt at intrusion to pc's, or denial of service if someone wanted to use it conconcurrently, I can't say ..
June 24th, 2004, 11:37 AM
3fingersalute

Quote:

Originally Posted by confus-ed

Fine bit of 'taking out of context' there :p - go back & read all that I put ;)

Fair enough.

Quote:

Originally Posted by confus-ed

Fine bit of 'taking out of context' there :p - go back & read all that I put ;)[/& btw you don't 'own' your wife, she's free to make her own decisions, or ought to be - so neither of these is 'theft'.

I know, I was just making a point.
June 24th, 2004, 11:40 AM
3fingersalute

Quote:

Originally Posted by confus-ed

Originally we talking about 'theft of service' well if I didn't want that service at that time & you got it instead, you didn't steal anything .. because you never deprived me of what I never wanted to use, as I didn't want to use it so you can't deprive me of something I don't want ..

I still say theft of service is theft of service, regardless of whether I wanted to use the service at the time it was stolen or not. I pay for a service to be available for me to use 24/7, and anybody who takes away my ability to use that service (at any time) is stealing my rights to that service.
June 24th, 2004, 11:52 AM
confus-ed

If we say 'potential denial of service' rather than 'theft' - I think that covers it ? :)

Quote:

.. I was just making a point.

Being absolutely applicable ! ;)
June 24th, 2004, 12:45 PM
GrandDad

Quote:

Originally Posted by confus-ed

Yeah so if you take it back or it was never 'required' because no one was using it, then its not 'theft' ..

Originally we talking about 'theft of service' well if I didn't want that service at that time & you got it instead, you didn't steal anything .. because you never deprived me of what I never wanted to use, as I didn't want to use it so you can't deprive me of something I don't want ..

Its obviously 'somehow wrong' but just what 'crime' is committed when there is no damage done, or attempt at intrusion to pc's, or denial of service if someone wanted to use it conconcurrently, I can't say ..

So say for example (my Cable internet provider) they limit thier customers Band Width to 'X' amount because they only have 'XXX' amount available (for whatever reason) but say on a normal day not everyone's on-line at the same time and one's that are , probably wouldn't be using thier peak Band Width so the provider has 'X.x' un-used or not needed or unwanted on that day , if I used a Hack to double or more my Band Width thats not in use would that be 'theft of service' ?
June 24th, 2004, 11:21 PM
Gollo

Quote:

Originally Posted by GrandDad

So say for example (my Cable internet provider) they limit thier customers Band Width to 'X' amount because they only have 'XXX' amount available (for whatever reason) but say on a normal day not everyone's on-line at the same time and one's that are , probably wouldn't be using thier peak Band Width so the provider has 'X.x' un-used or not needed or unwanted on that day , if I used a Hack to double or more my Band Width thats not in use would that be 'theft of service' ?

Ok so say I go down to my local supermarket and check the dairy section. They have 10 gallons of milk that are for sale 2 of which have todays experation date on them. Now lets say I grab a gallon of milk (that's experation date is say 10 days from now) and buy it. Is it theft to go back and take one that is expired just because "they wont be able to sell it"?

YES IT IS THEFT OF SERVICE Edited by NooNoo!!!
Now now, you know the rules, no getting personal.
June 24th, 2004, 11:41 PM
TripleRLtd

WTF has expired milk got to do with any of this??
-ed is playing "devils advocate" and it looks to me like GrandDad is agreeing with all your good points before this one:
YES it is theft of service!! However you look at it, it is theft! If you are NOT paying for it, but "taking" it from someone else for free, that IS theft!

PS
Why call him an edited by NooNoo Gollo, when he is agreeing with you?
June 24th, 2004, 11:47 PM
GrandDad

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gollo

Ok so say I go down to my local supermarket and check the dairy section. They have 10 gallons of milk that are for sale 2 of which have todays experation date on them. Now lets say I grab a gallon of milk (that's experation date is say 10 days from now) and buy it. Is it theft to go back and take one that is expired just because "they wont be able to sell it"?

YES IT IS THEFT OF SERVICE MORON!!!

You mind telling who you were calling an edited by NooNoo?
June 25th, 2004, 03:20 AM
Tekboy

Well, I guess I have to agree with Gollo now, since he started calling someone names.

I mean, that means he's right, doesn't it?

"The truth in any argument is inversely proportional to the volume of it".

Or something like that.
June 25th, 2004, 03:42 AM
gazzak

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gollo

YES IT IS THEFT OF SERVICE Edited by NooNoo!!!

You didn't need to say that to someone who's new here whether they agree with your opinions or not. If you can't be civil don't reply.
June 25th, 2004, 07:12 AM
3fingersalute

Quote:

Originally Posted by gazzak

You didn't need to say that to someone who's new here whether they agree with your opinions or not. If you can't be civil don't reply.

Agreed.
June 25th, 2004, 07:33 AM
confus-ed

Ok then dudes since I'm 'that way out' courtsey of certain non neutral swiss referee ..

What about 'contention' ? - on say cable circuits, my guaranteed service at home is supposedly 256k .. but when I go routing about in the small print I find that actually what I'm 'guaranteed' is 1/64th of a 10mb pipe i.e 156k - so who's 'stealing' from who then here .. ?

They get the 256k figure from an average of 40 users per circuit at 'full load' (supposedly its throttled to a maximum but all what I get is like a sine wave so up & down between say 150k & 400k)

Sometimes I can get all of the 'pipe' ! :D .. (usually after a little conversation with the steady stream of cable techs who visit the big green distribution point outside my house - a cup of coffee usuaully gets me switched to a new circuit ! ;)) but other times I just get the same as everyone else & at peak times I'm only getting 156k but that's before any overheads so actually I'm getting less ..

Now there can't be any 'theft' here whatsoever as I'm 'authorised' to get between 1/64th of it & all of it - but according to what certain folks here believe, I'm a dirty thief ..

If you want to be all litteral about it, when your isp's server is busy then they are 'stealing' from you all the time ..

So I'm still of the opinion that warchalking is only a crime if you do something bad to a system or actually stop someone using what is rightfully theirs, but if they didn't want to use it, then its a case of 'no foul, no harm'.

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