Gas Price Rebellion

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Originally Posted by jitBob

To the first part of your post. Don't you think that now is very dangerous time in our economic recovery for the price of an essential good to skyrocket? I don't know about you, but I am very tired of the last three years of economic disarray.

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Economic disarray...we are making a comeback, or didn’t you notice? And even as worse as it was over the past 3+ years, then and now, it is not the time to deplete from the reserve. Every President to date would agree to that, Kerry is blowing smoke to try to make Americans “feel good” about him, yet this makes him a serious threat to our national security!!! It isn't about saving you some money at the pump, or making pizza and flower deliveries cheaper, it's an emergency storage for the security of this nation, should it ever really hit the fan! There have to be other ways to lower the costs, and if there aren't any, we just need to live with it! We are not in economic hard times!

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Originally Posted by Ya_know

, but he is a thread to our national security!!! !

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WTF is that supposed to mean?

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Originally Posted by Ya_know

It isn't about saving you some money at the pump, or making pizza and flower deliveries cheaper, it's an emergency storage for the security of this nation, should it ever really hit the fan! There have to be other ways to lower the costs, and if there aren't any, we just need to live with it! We are not in economic hard times!

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Did someone say Pizza Delivery?https://forums.windrivers.com/images.../2005/03/1.gif

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Originally Posted by Ya_know

Economic disarray...we are making a comeback, or didn’t you notice? And even as worse as it was over the past 3+ years, then and now, it is not the time to deplete from the reserve. Every President to date would agree to that, Kerry is blowing smoke to try to make Americans “feel good” about him, yet this makes him a serious threat to our national security!!! It isn't about saving you some money at the pump, or making pizza and flower deliveries cheaper, it's an emergency storage for the security of this nation, should it ever really hit the fan! There have to be other ways to lower the costs, and if there aren't any, we just need to live with it! We are not in economic hard times!

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Ahh, but the reserve has been drawn down in the past. Not too distant past. Making a comeback is not the same thing as full economic recovery. There are still far too many people out of work and in many places for far too long to climb out of the hole for many years.

You have me confused. One day you say you don't support Bush and the next you appear to support him. What gives?

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Originally Posted by Cleetus

WTF is that supposed to mean?

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What is what supposed to mean??? Are you trying to change words in my posts again??? :p I typed it right, you read it wrong... :butt:

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Originally Posted by jitBob

Ahh, but the reserve has been drawn down in the past. Not too distant past. Making a comeback is not the same thing as full economic recovery. There are still far too many people out of work and in many places for far too long to climb out of the hole for many years.

You have me confused. One day you say you don't support Bush and the next you appear to support him. What gives?

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First off, where did you ever see that I said I don't support Bush? I am behind him in the majority of the situations.

As far as the national reserve, I don't doubt that some has been withdrawn in the past, but I would like to know when and for how long. Wouldn't know of a site would ya?

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Originally Posted by Ya_know

I got a question for you Techs, should we vote Kerry into office so that he can squander away our national reserve for a brief price relief, in hopes that it will "scare" the big oil companies to make some effort at lowering the prices?

I tell ya, Kerry scares me so much with the crap he wants to do. Pull troops out of Iraq, invade the national reserve, no position on gay marriage, and I am sure that there are a ton of things I am forgetting...But just that one question for now techs…

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That doesn't relate to what I posted but it is a good question(or at least the first one). the rest about Kerry I will leave to another thread.
The part about squandering our national reserve is not what anyone is saying. we have, I believe 700 million barrels in reserve? There have been calls to temporarily release some. About a million barrels a day is the most common one. Since we import 12 million barrels a day the 700 million is a 58 day emergency supply. Since in an emergency we could be expected to cut our useage at least 10 percent, some say 30 percent, lets use 20 percent. So our emergency supply is good for about 70 days.
If we release 60 million barrels, at 1 million per day thats 60 days. Which would cut our reserve from 70 days to 63 days.
The purpose of the release is to moderate the market and end the wild speculation. It is hoped that at that point the prices will drop. Then we start refilling the reserve. Since we would sell it off at a relatively high price we might even make a profit if we can buy it back at a lower price.
Now if Bush is planning to invade Iran, which you have to admit is at least possible than we shouldn't touch the reserve.

The Bush and Republican position has been that the reserve is not meant to be used to control prices. They believe in a the free market. Yet oil is not a free market. It is controlled by a cartel. Many people believe that a large enough reserve used as a price counterpoint could counteract the cartels power.

The only REAL answer to the oil problem is:
Find and produce more oil- Not likely
Get by on less oil by making oil using devices more efficient- A good short term solution.
Find alternative fuels- Doable. Just not under the free market. Since there is a cartel that can force alternative fuel suppliers into bankruptcy there needs to be some force (government) that can protect alternative fuel producers. I started this post with a proposition for one that is likely to work.
btw it turns out that alternative fuels are viable at 35.00 per barrel

Previous use of the Strategic Petroleum reserve.
A couple of instances are listed here.
http://slate.msn.com/id/2076042
I also remember Clinton releasing about 34 million barrels one year to contain the high cost of heating oil in the North East one winter.
And bear in mind the amounts released previously were about the same percentages of the total reserve as are being suggested now.

Well then...since the President is the one dealing with our current situation, and is more aware of all current and future commitments, shouldn't he be granted permission to run this country without Kerry constantly badgering him about "poor policy" that he perceives in the Bush administration? There are some things that Kerry isn’t going to be privy to, so to insist that the president do this or that his way, or produce an “adequate reason” why he hasn’t or wont isn’t good politics…

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Originally Posted by Ya_know

First off, where did you ever see that I said I don't support Bush? I am behind him in the majority of the situations.

As far as the national reserve, I don't doubt that some has been withdrawn in the past, but I would like to know when and for how long. Wouldn't know of a site would ya?

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Strategic oil reserve drawdown here. It was even the other Bush.

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Originally Posted by Ya_know

Well then...since the President is the one dealing with our current situation, and is more aware of all current and future commitments, shouldn't he be granted permission to run this country without Kerry constantly badgering him about "poor policy" that he perceives in the Bush administration? There are some things that Kerry isn’t going to be privy to, so to insist that the president do this or that his way, or produce an “adequate reason” why he hasn’t or wont isn’t good politics…

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I'm sorry, but, did you just say Bush is dealing with our current situation? And did you also just say that Bush is aware???

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Originally Posted by jitBob

I'm sorry, but, did you just say Bush is dealing with our current situation? And did you also just say that Bush is aware???

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Who do you think you are, Chris Rock?

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Originally Posted by Ya_know

Who do you think you are, Chris Rock?

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https://forums.windrivers.com/images.../2005/03/1.gif https://forums.windrivers.com/images.../2005/02/1.gif

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Originally Posted by techs

I could point out some flaws in your reasoning too. but if you are saying they will only get a 39 Billion dollar increased profit instead of 48 Billion, well, what the heck whats a few Billion among friends...

I don't begrudge a company a profit. And the oil companies were making a pretty decent one at 25 per barrel. But an additional 39 Billion sounds enormous.
Especially when they won't put that money into exploration. Since oil prices are volatile it would take some time at the high prices until they would risk developing fields that might make profit at say 30 per barrel.
But 39 Billion in additional PROFIT?
My original contention is if the price of oil could be assured of staying above a certain amount than alternative fuels, which would be profitable at todays prices would finally be developed. They are not because no companies will put the billions into development at the risk of oil dropping below the point where the new plants would profitable.
Would you pay 50 per barrel if it meant energy independence and a stable supply? Bear in mind that at 50 per barrel we might even start seeing more innovative energy efficiencies developed that might put the actual cost of driving, heating etc lower.

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Sorry about the delay in my respose techs. It's a long way from where I work to where I live, over 600 miles, and it was a bear of a travel day from the NW Arctic to home in Eagle River (I did take the time to welcome a newbie though :p ).

To start with my post wasn't my reasoning, but is actually my experience of what is going on in the mineral industry for the last 23 years (well except for the last one which was semi TIC - d@mn bean counters). The items I mentioned in my missive are but a few points. As to your erroneous comment in re to exploration in my budget for this year and next year is $10 million for exploration of Coal Bed Methane deposits on the Western Slope of the Brooks Range + another $3.2 million for other mineral exploration projects in the NW Arctic Borough. Our worldwide exploration budget is approximately 10% of our total operating budget. We are just one relatively small (on the Global scale) Canadian company. The really big boyz (BP, Phillips-Conoco, Exxon, Phelps-Dodge, Groupo Mexico, BHP-Billiton, Anglo-American, etc.) are spending billions in Alaska, Eastern Siberia (the same geological formations that formed the Prudhoe Deposits hold true across the Chukchi Sea - this is also true for other minerals as well-especially Titanium and Palladium), Indonesia, South America (Chile & Peru mainly) and yes even the Lower 48 of the US (mostly the SW). You won't find these stats or information in a Google search and unless you have access to someone like PricewaterhouseCoopers or have some insded info from the LME or the Merch you won't find it. We in the mineral industry are very protective of our data :D .

Now as to your question concerning $50 a barrel cap, which is what it essentially is, my answer would be no. Not in our "free market" economy it would not work without gov't intervention and I for one do not want that (it's just the Libertarian in me). The only place a cap has worked is in the NFL. :p
Alternative fuels are a great idea, and despite what ya might think we are spending $$$ in R&D. There has been some positive results in the Sonoran Desert of AZ on solar power (the efficiency %'s gains are encouraging). Another "alternative" is being used by Vericor and Environment & Power Systems in using volatiles & organics from Pollution Control Equipment for thermal destruction in the generation of electricity using 25 Megawatt turbines. As a quote unquote "alternative" it doesn't quite meet the definition of an alternative fuel, but it is a "green" alternative to power production by capturing pollutants from pollution control equipment which will reduce help reduce dioxin, NOx, COx and volatile emissions. Every little bit does help. There are other alternatives and some sound like something from Larry Niven, but as our technology has progressed they don't sound as far fetched now. I for one think geothermic & possibly core tap technology is a very doable thing (as shown in Iceland and could be put to major use here in AK) - getting past that diamond drill bit technology has been a hoser though ;) .

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Originally Posted by Ya_know

.......It isn't about saving you some money at the pump, or making pizza and flower deliveries cheaper, it's an emergency storage for the security of this nation, should it ever really hit the fan! There have to be other ways to lower the costs, and if there aren't any, we just need to live with it! We are not in economic hard times!

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I wish more peope understood that.

Higher prices will lead to alternatives, conservation, etc. Remember the effect of the oil embargo of the 1970's? In my opinion, the long term effect of higher oil prices will be positive.