Is President Bush the Stupidest or the most Lying President ever?

My entire post is about SS. The point is, we should not NEED the goverment involved in our savings. People should be responsible enough to save on thier own, without the goverment holding their hand, saying here...I know you were to irrisponsible to save, so we are doing it for you.

You are taking my point out of context & trying to shift it to welfare, which is a completely different subject.

The bottom line is simple. I can manage my own money, the goverment should let me.



...and just FYI SS did not start paying out until the 40's I believe....and the first payments were for extremely small amounts (like 8 cents)

Basically what it comes down to is that instead of being grown hawks that go out and hunt for what we need/want ourselves, we're little baby hawks that need our mommies to chew up our food for us and regurgitate it into our mouths.

It would be nice if there were some kind of opt out program for SS. Oh....wait a minute... :devil:

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Originally Posted by meatwad

It would be nice if there were some kind of opt out program for SS. Oh....wait a minute... :devil:

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Right now, IIRC, pastors/ministers have the option to opt out for religious reasons.

Honestly, Sol, what happens when entire segments crumble, like Enron and the energy business? Then suddenly thousands who did save on their own suddenly lose a large chunk to all of their savings. Suddenly they have nothing, because it was not secure.

Why is there such a problem with having a portion of it secure that also doesn't involve kickbacks to the wall street asshats

by Solapathy
The point is, we should not NEED the goverment involved in our savings. People should be responsible enough to save on thier own, without the goverment holding their hand, saying here...I know you were to irrisponsible to save, so we are doing it for you.

First off I have shown that people cannot save for their own retirement.
Secondly, Yes! Tens of millions of people are not responsible! Sorry but that's the way it is. And there are so many irresponsible people that the sheer numbers who don't provide for their own retirement would affect the country to the point that the government needs to do something.
And might I point out that your money is going to support your parents and grandparents like they did theirs. NO ONE IS TAKING AWAY YOUR MONEY.
We have taxes to pay for necessary things like roads and we have a very fair tax that takes care of basic retirement needs. A lot fairer than how we pay for roads.

...As I will state once again I want the OPTION to invest it my own way. I do not want to be FORCED to invest in that fund. I want it to be MY decision on whether I let the goverment take a small part of my check. I do not need the goverment telling me that I WILL invest in their retirement plan whether I like it or not. It is inherently wrong.

If somone feels they want to invest it in SS they should be allowed to, but on the same not I should be allowed to invest MY money as I please. After all it is MY money, right?

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Originally Posted by SolApathy

...As I will state once again I want the OPTION to invest it my own way. I do not want to be FORCED to invest in that fund. I want it to be MY decision on whether I let the goverment take a small part of my check. I do not need the goverment telling me that I WILL invest in their retirement plan whether I like it or not. It is inherently wrong.

If somone feels they want to invest it in SS they should be allowed to, but on the same not I should be allowed to invest MY money as I please. After all it is MY money, right?

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I wish I had Bill Gates money.
I am certainly not going to interfere with your dreams.

So if what you say is correct, Sol, and we are paying now for the people who are retired now, if we pull out 25% of the money going in now, would we not bankrupt the system now, and screw over the elderly now, just so you can have your money locked away somewhere else now?

At the base of your logic, you have no compassion at all. You want to screw over those that paid their dues and should be getting a return on their investment into their country and receiving their benefit of being a responsible citizen that supported their government become the greatest nation ever, all in the name of your own personal pocketbook.

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Originally Posted by Cleetus

So if what you say is correct, Sol, and we are paying now for the people who are retired now, if we pull out 25% of the money going in now, would we not bankrupt the system now, and screw over the elderly now, just so you can have your money locked away somewhere else now?

At the base of your logic, you have no compassion at all. You want to screw over those that paid their dues and should be getting a return on their investment into their country and receiving their benefit of being a responsible citizen that supported their government become the greatest nation ever, all in the name of your own personal pocketbook.

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The system seems screwed up then, because by you and techs reasoning, nothing can be done to improve it without breaking it.

Well we take this "lock box" :devil:

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Originally Posted by meatwad

The system seems screwed up then, because by you and techs reasoning, nothing can be done to improve it without breaking it.

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Yes, you can improve it without breaking it. In fact it's been done. You can do thinks like 401k's and IRA's which allow individuals to save a tax free portion of their earnings. Since SS pays a minimal amount you can save the rest of your money needed to retire in anyway you like. You can invest it in the stock market, etc. And even if it goes belly up you will still have enough not to be homeless or penniless.
You already HAVE what Bush says he is trying to give you. The right to invest for your own retirement. Except Bushes plan would put everyone at risk of going belly up. Which would be a catastrophe for the country.

btw if Bushes plan goes thru stocks will surge and I will withdraw my money in the market and make a killing. When it bottoms out I will buy back in. There is a HUGE amount of money to be made if you already have stocks. It will be a large redistribution of money from the poor to the rich. I am not going to miss out.

...Ahh so the only way to make sure it stays "fixed" (or patched up) is to make sure that I never have the option to invest any of MY money in the manner I see fit that is going into the black hole of SS...

I will be forced to help maintain the sytem & unable to make my own financial decisions because that money (which is not really my money since, if I take it out SS will be completely ruined by your estimation) pays out for the current people retiring now...

Why to I feel like I am in a boat with a huge hole in the bottom, with only a teaspoon to bail the water...

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Originally Posted by SolApathy

...Ahh so the only way to make sure it stays "fixed" (or patched up) is to make sure that I never have the option to invest any of MY money in the manner I see fit that is going into the black hole of SS...

I will be forced to help maintain the sytem & unable to make my own financial decisions because that money (which is not really my money since, if I take it out SS will be completely ruined by your estimation) pays out for the current people retiring now...

Why to I feel like I am in a boat with a huge hole in the bottom, with only a teaspoon to bail the water...

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What black hole? It is going into a system that will pay you a retirement benefit.
Feel free to invest your money. In fact invest it TAX FREE in an IRA or 401K. In fact since its tax free just think of all the poor scnooks who can't afford to pay into an IRA. They are paying more to buy you roads, defend the country, etc.
So you can't say you can't invest any of your money. Invest it ALL. Just not the SS money.

btw how many illiterates in America? Functional illiterates? Mentally ill? Do you want to have to pay for their retirements as well as your own? Thats what you will do when 20 million people are wandering the streets stealing, passing on disease, etc. because they couldn't understand the need to invest or how to invest.
Not too mention you might join them if you happen to live long enough, since you will run out of your own private retirement fund.

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Originally Posted by techs

What black hole? It is going into a system that will pay you a retirement benefit.
Feel free to invest your money. In fact invest it TAX FREE in an IRA or 401K. In fact since its tax free just think of all the poor scnooks who can't afford to pay into an IRA. They are paying more to buy you roads, defend the country, etc.
So you can't say you can't invest any of your money. Invest it ALL. Just not the SS money.

btw how many illiterates in America? Functional illiterates? Mentally ill? Do you want to have to pay for their retirements as well as your own? Thats what you will do when 20 million people are wandering the streets stealing, passing on disease, etc. because they couldn't understand the need to invest or how to invest.
Not too mention you might join them if you happen to live long enough, since you will run out of your own private retirement fund.

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...I am not planning on letting my retirement run out. That is why I am investing wisely & starting out early so I have plenty of time to gain the assets I need to live comfortably when I reach the ripe age of 105. Once again I will point out that you do not read my posts. I stated very early on that I don't believe SS should be a requirement for people that are in in good mental & physical shape. If you are mentally disabled, or have a physical disability there should be safeguards in place within the system to protect them.

I should have the option fo investing all of my own money if I please.

As long as people like you keep this attitude there will continue to be preople that rely solely on the goverment. They will not invest & SS will be all they have, because they are not mature enough to manage thier money.

Until we start making people responsible this circle will continue. Bush is offering a slow opportunity to wean people off the system by allowing them the OPTION to invest. It is NOT a requirement as you seem to be pushing people to believe.



I am sure a lot of people will keep all of their money in SS, I'm just not one of them. I have earned the right to manage my own money the way I see fit. What other people chose to to is entirely up to them.


....And by the way, you seem to feel that is is somehow my resonsibility to help the illiterate people out there.

It's not. They made a choice, and continue to do so by remaining illiterate. If they don't feel they need to take the time to better themselves I feel no motivation to assist them.

and just to make it clear, I am referring to people that are in perfect mental & physical health, that just don't chose to better themselves.

Bush is offering a slow opportunity to wean people off the system by allowing them the OPTION to invest. It is NOT a requirement as you seem to be pushing people to believe.

Which immediately bankrupts the system and US.