I love Aurell. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by a d e p t
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I love Aurell. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by a d e p t
shes a little overprotective of her poo child tho https://forums.windrivers.com/images.../2005/02/1.gifQuote:
Originally Posted by meatwad
Quote:
Originally Posted by meatwad
Dude, what is it with you and married chicks? :p
DUDE, did u just say u loved oral n lardy, or was that laurel and hardy https://forums.windrivers.com/images.../2005/03/1.gifQuote:
Originally Posted by meatwad
I don't discriminate like you, you predjudice bastard. :mad:Quote:
Originally Posted by a d e p t
Well, where is everyone. I get off early and no one is on.
im on 2nite, look for the major if u log https://forums.windrivers.com/images.../2006/04/1.gifQuote:
Originally Posted by Kymera
Im on, it's saturday. gtonna have to log for an hour but i[m in for whatever tonight.[B]
Coming.
That was pretty cool XP, those missions we hit up.
Notwithstanding the fact that Stalemate (well into level 33 now) bit the dust 3 times, he still got 3 bars out of the deal. https://forums.windrivers.com/images.../2005/03/1.gif
I'm getting the hang of this herding thing - those were big bunches of baddies. :p
I'll be on this evening, preferrably with Fracas (19) or a d e p t (11), unless there is still someone who needs to hit 34 for the respec.
Will unstoppable get better once you are lvl 34 and you can fully slot it or other stuff? You die so much now.Quote:
Originally Posted by a d e p t
I'm just concerned...
As am I. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by ilovetheusers
The plan was to reach a state where I could run Unstoppable perma and I slotted both it and Dull Pain (when the drop occurs) accordingly.
Since Issue 3 (or updates made during that same time period) will annihilate permaUnstop, I'll have to respec it out and pick/slot Unyielding instead if I want to stay mobile.
The dying occurs when Unstioppable drops and I find myself in a slight limbo where Dull Pain is set to launch but the animation time is long enough for some attacks to go through.
I'm trying to find a way to make Stalemate work after Issue 3, and so far I see him...What I would need to do is do the level 34 respec with you guys and transfer Stale over to the Training Room for experimentation before settling on a specific rebuild.
- Switching from Unstoppable to Unyielding (which replaces Unyielding Stance)
- Swapping Provoke from the Power Pools for the upgraded Taunt in tanker powersets
- Slotting the passives - Resist Physical Damage, Resist Energies and Tough Hide - as much as I can.
- Re-slotting Invincibility from 3 to 6 (ToHitBuffx3, EndRed, possibly ToHitDebuff or DamRes if it's possible)
- Perhaps swapping Dull Pain for Temporary Invulnerability (which I had respec'ed out last time)
- Running out of Endurance fast once again, even with Stamina 6-slotted, as the main Invulnerability powers end consumption will be upped and all attacks will draw hate - requiring said powers.
- Losing a lot of damage potential from the re-slotting of primaries required regardless of the increased damage potential Issue 3 is bringing to tankers.
- Not soloing much at all. As opposed to other archetypes, Invulnerability tankers become harder and harder to play because of the powers offered later on, and less and less required on teams when herding is not required. Other AT find themselves getting uber powers which benefit their soloing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by a d e p t
Well, I'd say the changes suck but honestly the way that the perma unstoppable is gathering you so much debt. it sounds like this might be a good move.
Also, you need to get stale on as often as you can while Aum is on so I can get the monkeys to gather XP for you.
And it will only get worse if perma is no longer possible after Issue 3.Quote:
Originally Posted by ilovetheusers
I really appreciate the fact that Jack Emmert is getting involved and that Geco is trying to put out some good code to "fix" some gameplay issues re: tankers and scrappers, but tankers already were seen as un-necessary in later gameplay (32+) with scrappers being able to do light tanking duty and dish out more damage... I dunno where they're going with this lately - I haven't checked.
Basically, Invulnerability had 3 ways to build their tanks (2 of which involved remaining rooted, the other dropping them down to 10% HP and 0 end after 2 minutes) if they wanted to avoid mind attacks/sleeps/holds/mezzes.
Now, it looks like there will be only 1 way to build a viable tank using that powerset.
Needs more testing.
Sounds good.Quote:
Originally Posted by ilovetheusers
When Aumakua magically appears in Paragon City tonight, I'll get Stalemate out. ;)
City of Heroes nabs Best Character Creation System - Special Award from GameSpy.
More here: http://www.gamespy.com/articles/510/...html?fromint=1
It is also 8th on their top ten list for 2004: http://goty.gamespy.com/2004/pc/index3.html
Quote:
Originally Posted by a d e p t
after 9pm.
Deal.Quote:
Originally Posted by ilovetheusers
Interesting comments on CoH Forums following Statesman's explanation of the Invulnerability changes/nerfbat beating:
Quote:
Summary:
Detail:
- The 'problems' highlighted in the reasoning behind the changes simply don't exist.
- The changes themselves will not fix even those non-existant problems.
- The day these changes go live, is the day I cancel my account.
I haven't posted up to now because I didn't want to appear to whine, and there are so many responses here I'm concerned that one more will just get lost. Also, if Statesman isn't convinced by now that this is a bad idea, I don't see how one more post is going to change his mind.
However, I decided that since these changes highlight a deeper problem within the game that's sufficiently serious in my eyes as to warrant me cancelling my account the day they go live, it behooves me to post something.
...
So. States reckons this is why Inv was changed:
1) Inv was MUCH better than the other sets.
Well, that's just not true. What *is* true is that Inv offered the best defense and the best damage resistance. However, not only does it already have weaknesses in the form of Unyielding's rooting and 3-second activation time during which I'm completely vulnerable, it also has no psi protection, and is the only Tank primary that has zero effect on MOBs. Ice has slow, Fire has extra damage, Stone has psi and slow. Inv simply has protection for *me*. Now, unless States is saying that for the last nine months, Inv had a massive design flaw and they've only just realized, then he's simply wrong about it being MUCH better than the other sets. That's the trade off for Inv Tankers.
2) Tankers and Scrappers could CAP their defense AND damage resistance without even using many slots.
OK, so now States is saying that because Scrappers can use the power set too, Tankers should be weakened. What about the line a few weeks ago that "Tankers would be getting some love, and the mantra was to make Tankers as good at defense as Scrappers are at damage"...? Is the answer to that *really* to make Regen Scrappers better than they used to be at defense, and to make Inv Tankers much worse? If the design of the game is so flawed as to give a primary to another AT as a secondary and not allow any differentation, then States simply hasn't done his job.
If Inv Tankers *must* be changed, they should be changed because *Inv Tankers* are overpowered, **NOT** because Scrappers can use the power too.
3) A single Tanker could run through an entire map [snip] with several Blasters.
So States is complaining that one Inv Tanker and several Blasters can clear a map too quickly, and the answer is to reduce the *Inv Tanker*'s abilities?? I thought that Teaming was a big priority for this game: is it really true that not only shouldn't we be able to solo Bosses, Elite Bosses and Archvillains, now we also shouldn't be team against them if the team consists of one Tank and several Blasters? What Team combination *would* be acceptable? Seriously, *why the hell is this even on the radar*?
4) We removed the Ranged Defense out of Invincibility in order to prevent mass herding.
OK: this is definitive proof that the Devs are not playing their own game. Artificially levelling a character and trying it out is not good enough. Herding, because you clearly don't know, is never, ever, not once, done by Inv Tankers just *because* they're Inv Tankers, let alone because Invincibility has Ranged Defense. Where this came from I can't imagine: but it was not from someone who's ever seen anything herded. Herding is not the problem. Even if it *was* the problem, this doesn't solve it. This is just stupidity, and quite how it made it out of someone's mouth and onto Test is quite beyond me. As a developer of games myself, including MMOs, I can honestly say that whoever thought this up needs to be taught a lesson.
So, to summarise: Inv is *not* MUCH better than the other sets: Tankers should not be changed because Scrappers can be too powerful: Complaining that a team can clear a map too quickly is the fault of an Inv Tanker and not a Blasters' damage output with an Alpha Strike is absurd: and Ranged Defense in Invincibility is not what allowed mass herding in the first place.
Also, I'd like to point out that in Archery, States is doing what we would call 'chasing your arrows'. If by shooting one arrow, it doesn't hit Gold, and you start changing settings on your bow, shoot another, and it still doesn't hit Gold, then you will be chasing those arrows around the target constantly: to make proper assessments of changes, you change one thing at a time, and shoot many arrows so that you can get a good feel for the impact of the change.
Now, let’s discuss the particulars:
1) Tankers would get [Unstoppable] at 33, and immediately respec out of all of their other defense powers except for Invincibility.
Would they? Apart from the obvious mistake of getting it at 32, not 33, I know that *my* Tanker didn't take it at 32, and won't be taking it either. I am not interested in playing the game watching the clock, and Unstoppable frankly, terrifies me. States is clearly claiming that all Tankers take it when that just isn't true. Also, if you're positive that a perma-Unstoppable Tanker is overpowered, then adjusting the recharge time *only* would be sufficient.
2) The change ensures that powers don’t become obsolete.
Absolutely not. It ensures that Unstoppable becomes obsolete: Instead of respecing out powers because perma-Unstoppable did it all, Heroes will now respec out Unstoppable.
It ensures that instead of having variant builds of Inv Tanker: there will now only be one build of Inv Tanker.
3) The extreme (50%) defense penalty to Unyielding was too much, it was meant to be 5%.
No-one blames States for a simple bug: although I'm very curious that no-one spotted this. Who's testing the thing?
4) The defense balances out the movement gain. There needed to be some penalty and –def makes sense
I completely agree that if Unyielding allows movement, there must be a penalty. Of course, I don't think Unyielding *should* have allowed movement in the first place: in my opinion, that's what Unstoppable was for, with the added penalties that had. States forgot to mention the increased end cost of Unyielding as another penalty: so Unyielding now has two penalties for the movement ability. Sorry, but that's too much.
As others have pointed out, he's now saying that in order to tank, we *must* take Power Pools. We *must* have stamina, which means one pool and three powers that are required: all because he feels our *primary* power set shouldn't have the effect that it's named for. Come to that, could we rename the thing "Slightly Hard" instead of "Invulnerable"...?
5) The Accuracy bonus was so good that Invulnerability Heroes did not need to slot Accuracy Enhancements
Well, what level would be acceptable? Two slots of Acc+? Three? Four? Make a change, by all means. I'd be happy to test the figures until they're right. But the problem here is that in changing this, States appears to be neglecting that in order to kill a single bad guy, we have to stand up to them and all the others in the area for ages: now, reducing acc so that we don't hit as often, *and* reducing our defense and resistance so that we can't stand up for as long, simply means that I am no longer able to kill *anything* under *any* circumstances. Of course, I'm exaggerating: it's the concept I'm trying to get across.
How can Inv Tanks now fulfill their role of meatshield as States has said we're supposed to be? I can't stand up as long as Scrappers can, I can't do as much damage as Scrappers or Blasters or other Tanks, and I can't even team with Blasters now because States reckons that makes me overpowered.
6) We lowered the defense and accuracy per minion and set a cap to the number of enemies that can boost it.
I'd be fascinated to find out what level States thinks is acceptable for this. As it is on test, a group of three +2 minions killed my Tank. If I'm meant to stand up and take hits for an entire team, this change won't let me do it. My Tank is no longer helpful in a team: I need people (Scrappers) to rescue me as much as the Blasters do. And Blasters at least have many times the damage output I do.
7) We removed the Ranged Defense out of Invincibility in order to prevent mass herding.
Well that's just brain dead.
8) Invulnerability Heroes can still cap their Damage resistance with just a few Enhancement slots
My primary powers are pretty much maxed out on slots, all with damage resist or defence enhs, and still on test, I can't stand up to three +2 minions. The change is too much.
9) the number of pool powers with defense means that they can still probably cap their defense too if they try hard.
So, in order to actually be Invulnerable Tankers, we now *have* to take Pool Powers, and we have to try hard.
As someone else said, is this combination then going to be 'fixed'?
This is the *only* benefit of this primary power set: this is not just toned down, this is gutting it.
10) Only now Heroes will need to use lots of slots to do this and they will not have infinite endurance.
There is of course, another option: Heroes can quit.
As I said before, I apologise if this sounds whiny, and I apologise that these points have been made before: but the day they go live, is the day I cancel my account. I feel that I deserve the opportunity to have my say before I do that.
Karon/Ringu/Tank Da Vinc
I teamed up with Aurell, her husband 4points (under the guise of Blue Sky - sp?), and other members of her SG (Rat Fink being one of them) last night. Nice guys.
It was fun, even if no real XP gain was made for me because of the team composition and personal debt (yeah, "Unstoppable" my ***), but I did get the Pupil badge with her help and that was great. This badge is used in the acquisition of the Atlas Medallion which gives a 5% bonus to END. :cool:
More badges and accolades here: http://www.aeyrie.net/coh/badges.php
I found it odd that only a few people were actively participating in the action, but I think that some may have been on the team just for levelling purposes, so that was fine by me. I was mostly curious to see what the Rikti / Portal mission was all about anyway.
I'm planning on spending at least a full day next week in PAragon City, so task forces and Terra Volta are serious contenders for that time, as is a major badge hunt for Stalemate, Fracas and a d e p t.
If interested let me know. ;)
I think Stalemates future will be interesting but just the removal of unstoppable for you would be a big boon to your existance = about 10 fewer deaths per night. Maybe you should keep it just for emergencies.
I think that herding is a big issue with them on the servers causing lag which may be why they want to stop that. It's still stupid though and they should just have the balls to say that's why they are doing it.
Overall, do you think that you can make him playable after the respec?
I just whipped out hero planner to play with the stalemate build and it's freakin hard. All of your powers are usefull and it makes getting power pools in there in a decent order next to impossable. Good luck man.
I think so, if this is an exaggeration:Quote:
Originally Posted by ilovetheusers
If I try the plan I listed previously about which powers to switch around and slot differently. I'm considering myself luck that the only viable Invulnerability tanker build available after Issue 3 is very close to what I want. Others aren't so lucky at all.Quote:
...My primary powers are pretty much maxed out on slots, all with damage resist or defence enhs, and still on test, I can't stand up to three +2 minions. The change is too much...
Trouble is, until Unstoppable is made perma (4 Rec min.) it is fatally dangerous. That will be resolved with Issue 3's removal of even the possibility of perma.
I'll most likely have to get Unyielding (not as powerful), Invincibility (nerfed too AND higher End cost) to and Temp. Invulnerability (third End draining toggle) coupled with Tough Hide and some passive resists to just barely reach the same caps I had before. I may have to get Acrobatics again for the Def. buff too.
That means much less slots for my attacks, and much less ability to solo.
Herding *might* still be possible under some circumstances, but ranged attacks (even within melee range) will be hard to deal with after Issue 3.
And I think I can forget all about tanking anything +6 anymore, +2 is going to be a challenge enough.
I know what you mean... it took me close to 10 tries to get him where he's at today. :pQuote:
Originally Posted by ilovetheusers
But what the heck.
If it doesn't work out I'll shelf Stale for the time being and get myself a regen or SR DM scrapper. :p
Comments from a level 38 Invulnerability tank after testing Invulnerability changes in Training Room:
Quote:
Conclusions, just based on my impressions: Too much ranged damage taken, too much endurance used, not nearly as much fun. If I'm to tank for a large group, I'm going to need a *lot* of support. I'm finding myself spending a *LOT* of time looking at my END bar, trying to judge if I've got enough to take another swing without dropping my toggles. That's no fun.
One comment I haven't seen made: We lost range DEF on Invinc. We got increased END use on Unyielding. So, we get hit more from ranged foes - and every group has ranged foes, and most in the higher levels *WILL NOT* get close to you, and when you get close to them, they often like using ranged attacks anyway - no DEF against those. So, right there, we're taking more shots than we used to. So, TI can take care of some of that. But, couple that with fights taking longer, due to having to slow down our attacking, and we're taking even more shots, taking even more damage.
Bottom line, Invulnerable Tankers are going to need a whole lot of support in a large team setting, or we're not going to be able to do our jobs properly. And, I've learned that staring at the END bar just isn't as fun as taking down a group without worrying about it too much, and moving on to find another one.
My recommendations:
-Restore the ranged DEF to Invincibility.
-Cap the total DEF/ACC, or reduce the per-mob buff to DEF and ACC, if necessary to make it a little less powerful.
-Restore the END usage of Unyielding to its previous value, and then cut the END usage of it, Invincibility, and TI by 1/3.
I don't like the -DEF of Unyielding, but I can live with it. Barely. I'd prefer not to see it at all, especially in conjunction with losing the ranged DEF from Invinc.
If you have Unyielding on I'm guessing you don't need Acrobatics. Can you keep temp invuln or invinc on at the same time as unyeilding?Quote:
Originally Posted by a d e p t
And yes, I saw the same issue, you may have to take all the non toggles and slot them heavily. So, you may not have as many slots for all the attacks and perma hasten may go away.
Luckily - you have a controller and 2 blasters who love having you around that will be more than happy to work with you. Also, the most difficult part is getting stale to be acceptable when you exemplar him. Getting all his powers in is a snap but getting them is any decent order requires a feat of great intilect. I think you'll be OK.
Ah crap... exemplaring... https://forums.windrivers.com/images.../2005/03/1.gifQuote:
Originally Posted by ilovetheusers
I've been reading up this PM - slow day... office is almost empty...
The 3 toggles can all run at the same time, but their defensive value - either against avoiding being hit or against damage - has been reduced. The new Unyielding actually lowers def. by 5%, while Invincibility defense will no longer stack to reach the resistance cap AND no longer protects against ranged attacks.
[sarcasm] And we all know there are no ranged attacks whatsoever at all in later levels... [/sarcasm]
Did I mention the added end drain on both of those also? And the bonus to accuracy goven by slotting Invincibility with ToHit enhancements is practically gone.
Slots in Primary powers will have to be given to Endurance Reductions, limiting the amount of Defense and/or Damage Reduction enhancements and preventnig reaching the 90% cap on both def. and resists.
Slots in Secondary powers will be reduced in number and most likely require Accuracy to be slotted now, meaning that from attacks 6-slotted with Damage Stale will now most likely have 3-4 slotted attacks with Accuracy and/or Damage and/or Endurance Reductions slotted instead.
[sarcasm]Luckily, tankers get an increased damage potential in Issue 3, meaning Stale can probably do just about the same amount of damage... If it weren't for the fact that Hasten will likely be a thing of the past and that Endurance will have to be used sparingly to keep the primaries up.[/sarcasm]
A guy who plays an Inv/SS tank on the CoH boards rounded it off nicely:
There are people who are skipping travel powers entirely, just to make their toon survive.Quote:
After testing the changes to Invulnerability and then Respec-ing for those changes the one glaring problem is that you have to take all of Invulnerability, Fitness (to run 3 endurance hogging toggles), your generally useless first Attack Power, your 2 Travel Set powers, and of course Taunt, because that is what you do (or so I am told by non-Tankers). That's 15 powers and you still only have Jab to attack with. That dosen't leave room for variation and will result in Cookie-Cutter Characters. No more Roleplay with Invulnerability.
I really hope the devs are paying attention.
I do appreciate the assistance from the team ups and especially from the SG for Stalemate, but my gaming time is about to be decreased significantly (if temporarily) in the upcoming months, which means there is very little chance he'll still be useful to anyone by then.
I do hope I can get him to 34 before Issue 3 is out to assist you guys with the respec next week and gain one at the same time so then I'll have at least one respec available - and possibly another (unless it has finally been made available only in the Training Room).
Another note:
Tough Hide (Primary) will be required, as will Boxing/Tough/Weave (Fighting Pool - new) and probably Acrobatics (Leaping Pool - currently in use) just to give Stalemate some defense and resistance against ranged attacks.
Sadly, even 6-slotting the passive Resist Phys. Dam, Resist Energies and Resist Elements won't cut it with the new numbers.
Well, I know I'm a bit late to all of this, but got CoH yesterday. I'm on Protector as Uun, a mutant/scrapper. Only up to L3 or so though.
Welcome aboard! https://forums.windrivers.com/images.../2005/03/1.gifQuote:
Originally Posted by hudsonsmith
I'll try to hook up with you this evening if you're on. ;)
Otherwise, someone please invite Uun into Ghosts of War ASAP.
Will you need a Teamspeak account right away?
Thanks for the welcome. I don't think I need a teamspeak account just yet, particularly since I am currently w/o a microphone (switched monitors w/ the kids computer - the mic was built in).Quote:
Originally Posted by a d e p t
Cool.
Let me know when you want a hook up. The whole gang is pretty much all using it. ;)
What time will you be on?
Sorry I had to bail out on you guys last night.
It was great meeting Uun also.
You seemed to be enjoying yourself out there, hudsonsmith. :cool:
As a newly enlisted recruit in the Ghosts of War supergroup, your first task is simple: just read this entire thread.
It doubles as an initiation. :p
I had a good time, but there were definitely a few times a felt like somebody's kid brother trying to keep up. Have to thank everyone for being patient.
After you hit level 10 and have a few more powers under your belt, you're usually in the full swing of things. :thumbs:Quote:
Originally Posted by hudsonsmith
Quote:
Originally Posted by hudsonsmith
That was you on at 1am last night! I'll put you on all the friends lists and I'll get one of the big guys out to give you some decent INF to get you started right.
hudsonsmith -this might be easier for you: :devil:Quote:
Originally Posted by a d e p t
coh.warcry.com is a huge help.
Go get the hero planner and plan your guy out before you get too high level - this helps a ton.
http://coh.warcry.com/index.php/cont...eroplanner.php
Adding the map pack to show all stores, contacts, etc is really helpful too.
http://coh.mapfiend.net/mappack.php
Thanks muchly. I'll have to check it out when I get home - office firewall has that site blocked.Quote:
Originally Posted by ilovetheusers
Quote:
Originally Posted by ilovetheusers
Oh suuuuuuuure - give him all the good stuff right away! https://forums.windrivers.com/images.../2005/03/1.gif
Didn't even have time for a good hazing. https://forums.windrivers.com/images.../2005/03/1.gif