Windrivers Today

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Originally posted by dweedo:
<STRONG>I don not know what has happend to make things this way, but in the short time that I have been coming here, things have changed, and I'm sorry to say it ain't as comfortable here anymore. <IMG SRC="smilies/tongue.gif" border="0"></STRONG>

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Hey, for whatever I may have done to make you feel this way, I apologize.

My dream is to read about WinDrivers forums in a magazine or book and have the writer say that the forums and the particpants are truly helpful and that there is fun to be had there.

I've read this entire thread, and here's my opinion if anyone cares:

The issue:
Jeanne is grouping some of the users here, and labeling them as a clique based on how Jeanne has seen these users interact with each other here. This seem's to be the main issue she has here.

The solution:
1) Jeanne should not place judgement on anyone at WinD, because it's wrong.
2) Nobody should place judgement on Jeanne because that's wrong too.
3) The "cliques" will happen naturally and there's nothing anyone can, or should do about it. The "cliques" will evolve and change over time, so expect it. I think the "cliques" are a good thing because it makes things more interesting, and proves that there is true personality, and character involved with these users.
4) If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen (I'm directing this towards anyone, including myself, who posts on WinD. This is not intended to be a flame at all.)
5) Jungleman may cause problems, or he may not. People may have a problem with him, or they may not. But whatever the case may be, my suggestion to Jungleman is this: Continue posting and follow the rules. Don't react to posts that you may find insulting, etc. because it's the reaction from you that most of those posts thrive on. Find users that you can get along with, and go with that instead of getting caught up in all the drama. You're only asking for it if you do.
6) Think about what you're writing and before posting. Go over what you've written a few times before posting, to make sure it's exactly what you want to say, and that it goes along with the rules.
7) Drink lots of beer on weekends!!!!

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Originally posted by dweedo:
<STRONG>OK, My turn. I know that many of you people here do not like me, but I have to agree 110% with what JeannieD is saying. There is most definatly a "clique" here and it really bring down the new visitors whom ask simple questions. I've seen posts and replies like "Duh, doesn't everybody know that?" No, not everybody knows everything. There are many different levels of PC experience. There are times when I will not even ask a serious question here becuase I know that I will never get a serious answer back if I get an answer at all. That totally sucks. I might have said some things in the past that people did not agree with and ever since then, I have almost been "shunned". I have a real difficult time getting a serious responce to many of my serious posts and I feel that this is the case for many other newcomers to this site. When I first started visiting this site, i thought it was great. Hey, here is a site where i caqn talk to people that do the same thing that i do all day long. I feel that i can no longer do that and I have not even been here that long. I don not know what has happend to make things this way, but in the short time that I have been coming here, things have changed, and I'm sorry to say it ain't as comfortable here anymore. <IMG SRC="smilies/tongue.gif" border="0"></STRONG>

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I don't think I have ever heard anyone say anything like everybody knows that. I know for a fact I have said before that we range in age and expirience and people who flame others for lack of knowlage are normaly the newer users and not the vetrans. I have never heard of mod doing this. I know Mods will point you to previous post because somtimes we do post the same things over and over again. This is to incorage research. This site is not only to help you out, but to help you research and learn along the way. As far as memebers being shuned or not talked to I will say the same thing that I have said to Jungleboy, we don't hate you, but if you want to play with the big dogs you will get bitten. Sometimes we all post outlandish things, Older members may be able to get away with something as a joke by there rep. It take's time for people to get used to you. Do you think for one second I type the same way now as I did when I first joined. No, I watched learned and read. Then I started posting. It was only after a while that I really started to interact with people and then only a little at a time. This whole clique Idea is ludicrious. This is a throw back to high school with the cool kids vrs the nerds. There is nothing like this going on here. We/I accept you as you are and welcome you. I don't post replies to everything I find funney, I don't post replies to things I can't awnser. However I do read most of the things posted. If you see a clique you are looking to hard at a group of friends who get along with each other. Join in, have fun, if you don't like it then don't read it, but don't complain because we all get along. We are all just text on this site, we are all ourselfs and we can be as brave or scared as we want to be. Never confuse friendship and cliques. It's unfair and biased, and please don't feel afriad or scared to post. I have said some really wacky things, just becareful how you do it and if your going to play with some of the senior members remember they rough, not because they are mean but because that's the way we play the game. You will never find a closer group of caring people as you will on this site, don't give up because you think we don't care or don't notice you.

Okay, this is the last I will post on this subject, because it's getting to be ridiculous.

Jeane does have a couple of valid points, but IMO (no "H" there intentionally), they're blown way out of proportion. As it has been stated, "cliques" are going to happen naturally when you get this many people together. I honestly try to stay on good terms with everyone here, with the exception of a few who are beyond help any of the regulars or moderators on here can give them.

Yes, there are some people that I've become tight with and that I consider very good friends. But that didn't happen soley from these forums. These are people that I've held conversations with in the chat room, or through AIM or ICQ. Hey, people, my IDs are up there on my profile bar, if you want to get to know me better, add me to your contact list. EDIT - NO THEY'RE NOT, I JUST REALIZED SCOTT HASN'T IMPLENTED THE HACKS IN THE NEW UBB. THEY ARE IN MY PROFILE. <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0"> It's not like I intentionally avoid people who aren't "cool enough" for me, it's just that Darren, Q, 3finger, Mogul, Renee, Furlong, GirlGeek, Mustang, and numerous others are ones that I have a connection to outside these forums.

I'm sorry if any of you feel alienated or like you aren't accepted here, but I'm not going to stop doing something I like just because a handful of users feel like I don't play well with others. Just because your feelings are hurt isn't going to stop me from writing "Poetry" with Elbatcho, or getting into "flame wars" with Darren, or just generally giving Q a hard time (and getting a hard time in return). I'm still going on a field trip with Pogi to Hooters in a couple of weeks, and I look forward to meeting him. But maybe I shouldn't do that, since I'm not going to take the time to meet each and every person on Windrivers, and thus, they'd be "left out".

Seriously, the ones that are the most vocal are always gonna stand out and group together. If you hide in a corner and only post on the support forums (which if you do, more power to you, I just like to come here to relax) then don't cry when no one knows who you are, and doesn't make you feel "at home" here in the lounge.

Anyway, once again, I'm sorry if I offend anyone or make them feel like I'm being a bully. I'm sorry if you don't feel like you're being treated fairly, by either the regulars here or the mods. I'm sorry if the loudmouths who always have something to say, like me, intimidate you and make you feel like you aren't welcome here. But it takes two to tango, people. Sometimes you've got to look at yourself, instead of starting a riot.

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Originally posted by Solid Cobra:
<STRONG>...But it takes two to tango, people. Sometimes you've got to look at yourself, instead of starting a riot.</STRONG>

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Exactly!

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Originally posted by 6DöG9:
<STRONG>5) Jungleman may cause problems, or he may not. People may have a problem with him, or they may not. But whatever the case may be, my suggestion to Jungleman is this: Continue posting and follow the rules. Don't react to posts that you may find insulting, etc. because it's the reaction from you that most of those posts thrive on. Find users that you can get along with, and go with that instead of getting caught up in all the drama. You're only asking for it if you do.</STRONG>

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Sounds pretty reasonable; don't flame up at anyone and with time, you'll be one of the gang, right? Well I have tried that. It is not that simple.

I feel excluded (of course, I've decided to mostly watch from the sidelines for a while) now. it comes from my track record, which hasn't exactly been squeaky clean. I've been trying hard to improve it by posting on more technical topics, and I attempted to be nice to people (until they directed an insult to me). No success. That's when I gave up completely. I realized it just wasn't working. I don't know what it is but your logical idea just isn't working. So that's when I decided to cool it for a while. I'll post only if it's absolutely necessary, such as over here, if the topic involves me.

I have no problem with any of you but it just seems that the rest of WinDrivers just isn't taking to me. I'm not mad at you 6dog9. As a matter of fact, I'm not mad at anyone. The Red Hot Chili Peppers summed it up perfectly in one of their songs (don't take this too literally)

I love, all of you, hurt by the cold


I think you get my point now. That's my $2,000 (I was generous and put in more than 2 cents).

Post Edited to remove inappropriate comments! -Sheriff Q

You've got a problem with a moderator's decision, contact them directly!

Monkey Man, I've always tried to treat you squarely. In all fairness I'm pretty sure I've missed some of your "past", as it got censored or deleted by the good folks here at Windrivers (and don't get me wrong here, I think they were probably right in doing so). So you may be a worse person than I've seen with my own eyes. But until I do see this, why shouldn't I speak with you? (I did see a couple of posts of yours that I disagreed with, and posted to that effect. But since then I've seen nothing I hate. Again--is it the real you, or was it deleted by the lawmen? Who knows? And really, who cares? Don't think the whole world is against you, until you've personally pissed off each one of them.)

As I said once before, you've ticked some people off. And some people just don't forgive and forget quickly, no matter what you do. That's just the way people are. What can you do about that? Absolutely nothing. So come to terms with it, and move on.

Until I see you do something more serious, I'll still trade words with ya!

Not like that's a big feather in your cap or anything, but it's a start.

The way I see things is 'Just Post'. People seem to flame me more than anyone else on here, do I let it get to me??? Not any more. If people don't like what decisions I make here as a Moderator then that is not my problem. I do this because I was asked to do so and the majority know that I wouldn't do something unless it was absolutely necessary.

Tennisman, believe me I know what you are going through, and I have asked some of the individuals in question to cool it & they have agreed to do so as long as you stay in line. If you play the game fair, then others will to.

The so-called 'Clique', I do not see. Yes us Mods will stick with each other as that is what we ahould do, and a few of the other users (as Cobra mentions) correspond off the Forums & Chatrooms as well. I don't see this as a Clique. We are just a few people who share similar interests who wind each other up, share jokes between ourselves (both on forum & off forum), we do not though try to alienate others from joining in otherwise we would not post these things on here. We try to keep it to the Tech Lounge only as this is the main reason why this section was set up. Things are nothing different to the way we used to correspond off the forums via ICQ JeanneD back in the days. I am still the same person that I was before (maybe a little more insane than previous but that is what children do to you!!!) the takeovers by Service911 & now Internet.com. That is when the changes took place in reality, when Service911 bought the site off of Scott. We now have a hell of a lot more people using the site than before. We could have easily formed a clique of the original members but we didn't, in fact we expanded the Moderator team and expanded the forums.

I see it that if everyone just hangs loose here in the Tech Lounge then there should be no problem. Most of the Topics & posts here can be 'Tongue in cheek' but for the majority they are humerous and not serious (i.e. 'While the Forums load' etc, etc). Just like Cobra's Evil Empire of world domination was not serious, Yes Cobra it was not serious whatever you say <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0">

Lets stop all this and get back to having fun in the Tech Lounge and serious threads in the other forums.

All right Rocco. I know that you guys know each other a lot longer than I've known you...I'm a relative newbie to this place (5 months, and only 3 of those months have I really posted a lot). And I'm OK with it. And yes I do associate with a few Windrivers users on ICQ, MSN, or AIM. I'll be willing to play it fair with you guys, if any of you don't like me you don't have to, just don't bother with me.

And by the way, Cobra's evil empire was real <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/tongue.gif" border="0">

On a lighter note, these new forum colors and CSS effects RULE!!!

And Dweedo (or KING SUPER GROVER!! <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0">), I haven't really seen you do anything bad, maybe the mods got to it first, but you haven't been so bad IMHO.

OK, talking too much too soon. I better stick to my word and see you in maybe a month? Not sure. <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0">

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I have no problem with any of you but it just seems that the rest of WinDrivers just isn't taking to me. I'm not mad at you 6dog9.As a matter of fact, I'm not mad at anyone. The Red Hot Chili Peppers summed it up perfectly in one of their songs (don't take this too literally)

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I didn't think you were mad at me. I'm just offering a suggestion because I've noticed how you tend to always come up in a negative way, in many of the posts. And because of this, there are many repercussions.

Remember, you shouldn't try to act nice to everyone just to get on their good side. Just be yourself, but continue to not be mischievious. Help people in the tech forums because you want to, and not so you can get on someone's good side. Post if you have something positive to say. It won't happen over night, but when the time is right for you, I'm sure you'll have more repect from everyone here. And if someone gives you $hit,... just give it right back in a mature and strong way instead of just complaining about it. Stand up for yourself, without causing damage to others. You are what you make yourself to be. That's about all I can say on it. The rest you'll have to figure out for yourself.

I have a couple of final comments:
1>I don't understand why the mods here are acting like I said anything about them being in the clique, or not doing a good job or a hard job... Where did I say that? Can you point it out to me cuz I must have missed it. I did say some(NOT ALL) show favoritsm, and one of you even agreed some. I said several times good things about you mods, especially you Darren, but you all only focused on and answered like I personally accused you of a clique or favoritsm, like I said you all did it all the time???
2>One mod said I should name the people in the clique?? Right that would make for intelligent responses,wouldn't that be considered flaming? You probably would have removed the topic immediately if I had, because it would have flamed out of control. Plus I didn't really need to did I?? And funny thing is only a couple bothered to keep replying, and some who reply the most & strongest I didn't even really consider "core" people in it...
3>I looked thru recent posts on the members here, know what I see? Only a couple have any tech posts in the last 50, most of you who are jumping on me so bad don't show even one technical post in 50? All tech lounge and suggestions, etc ..not that I care, but you make a big deal about how all you really care about is helping other members. Just an observance.
Some people talk the talk but don't walk the walk....
4> to be honest I don't give 2 you-know-whats who is friends with who, some of you say its me who feels left out or whatever. Ha...like this is my whole life and it really matters personally to me (altho I hate to see a good thing dragged down by a few overly self-important people). I have always in my life stood up for the underdog, that is why I did this post, for the other people who are new or afraid to speak up or they think thats just how it is here (or they have already been trampled a few times) I still say tho that the WHY things are done recently is not my peeve, it is the HOW.
5>why was it necessary to run a bunch of beer jokes and then a series of mockereries directed at me, back and forth, in the middle of what was to me and some others, a serious topic, deliberately going way off topic,guess the forums are also chat rooms now?? No one made you keep replying to this thread, or even read it. Trying to make me look stupid (I think it backfired on you guys), Trying to keep people from reading directly thru and taking my point seriously??? Baby stuff, in my opinion. And why did no mod ask them to stop, to stay on topic or stop mocking me, or even to stop accumulating all those posts that are gotten from a bunch of worthless posts.. No wonder they have so many posts in such a short time, they will probably beat DW soon. And all from these great technical posts they are making. And now there is the other topic started, openly mocking me, JvaGuys June Junkie. jeez...feel better now guys? get a life.

Like I keep stating but everyone conveniently ignores - I respect All the Mods and think they do wonders, and have never had any trouble with any of them or for that matter any members personally. I guess according to some of you, after all this time I have been a member with no conflicts I just all of a sudden decided to pretty much make up a story out of thin air, inventing this clique idea (even tho you mostly have given more or less credence to it) and making a statement I knew would put me in the line of fire for those who can't "stand the heat" when someone doesn't agree with them, just because I "don't understand" or "I don't see it right" or "it's just a group of friends"? Baloney. I could go for a long time (but I won't, you say the same lines over and over) just watching some you guys prove my point, quite interesting really.. If you don't like the heat, get out of the kitchen? Who are you to tell people here that? Why do people have to conform to a bad thing, shut up, or leave?? Some people believe in compromise or improvement. Some people here explain their position and I can accept that even if I don't agree, it's the ones who think the can bully or intimidate you into accepting their point that bother me. Some of you keep posting your own versions of the rules all over of what everyone should do on windrivers, but you don't follow them yourself.

Notice I try (and I may accidently say a broader term, but I NEVER intentionally group everyone, that would be ridiculous) to always say "some" or a few or
whatever I try never to say everyone or all (I may say "you" but usually in a generic form) - yet some accuse me of grouping everyone together or accusing all mods of favoritsm etc...that is totally untrue and it is just an attempt to fan the flames or misdirect my intentions.
You are wrong on one thing, Darren,this is not the same place it always was, a person didn't used get the heckling, disrespect and ridicule they get now, as shown in this thread. I never needed to post this over any other "friends" group that was here, I didn't just decide years later to notice something here already. if I had seen these things in the past I would have mentioned it then too. Maybe because you are there so much, you don't see it like it seems from an outside viewpoint.

I never said that my first post on this thread was for you. "Facts about the Mods" was for everyone!

I respect your opinion about not posting the names of those who belong to the clique, but I would do it. I've learned to tell the truth since I was a kid. And when I know my thoughts are correct I don't afraid anyone but the God. I can see some "friendships" around here, but I wouldn't say they are cliques and certainly there is not favouritism. I'm sorry, but I can't change my mind about it!

I don't like flame wars either, so this is probably my last reply to this topic. My conscience is clear. I have never, ever done something wrong around here and I would never, ever do. I'm not apologizing right now and I'm certainly not trying to be the hero of the day! I know you are talking generally, but I felt like I should post this as my last reply to your post.

BTW, I'm really glad you're still here.

I never thought you were in a clique or favoring.
Ok I will concede maybe,that clique may not be the perfect word, but I don't know a better one. Regulars, friends and clique are NOT the same thing to me. There are plenty of people on here I know, who are friends with each other and even with some of the clique-y people that I don't consider "clique-y" at all. They manage to have friends without having to do some of the stuff i have mentioned (and even seen) here, they don't need to flaunt their abilities, etc or ridicule people (they seem to disappear when that is going on), they don't have fun at someone elses expense. There is more going on than just friends having a ha-ha when they gang up on people to force their own ideas or try to intimidate. Look in this post where they are making fun of me by saying who's in the clique or not.. that is not just having a good time together at no ones expense. How about the new topic in tech lounge, which you can't tell me that wasn't intended to PO me, that was just good clean fun between friends?
The favoritsm thing comes up mostly from chat room, and it is not just from me, I only went once,others tell me it is because of this: why (like when I went too), there are like 5 or 6 mods with 5 or 6 +V and only 2 or 3 regular members? You come in and everybody has a big icon next to their name but a couple of you, does that seem reasonable? how much moderation is needed for 2 or 3 people (I can see more when its real busy but why at this timet)What do they do moderate each other. Is that supposed to make everyone equal and comfortable? Themods\+V are equal and comfortable but any regular person coming in won't be. And why as some have asked but no one answers, do some people get +V automatically all the time,others sometimes (I can see never would be someone who can't help people well, but what about between more or less equal techs?) who and how decides it? Is there like 1 mod & 1 +V per so many people or rooms or what (seems like it should be like that). Not saying the mods can't chat there without moderating anyway. Just wondered if it could be clarified. Is it posted out here somewhere where you can read it without going into chat? Is a mod a mod in both chat and forum automatically? Do a lot of people use the chat room or mostly always the same ones?
You know AOL used to have really good "PC or MAC" chat rooms where people could ask questions and get help, but little by little it got taken over by people who like to hear themselves talk, more than help people, it got to be where peoples questions were ignored mostly or trivialized and the "regulars" would just go on and on between themselves. Ruined it completely and most of the people who really wanted to help others got frustrated, gave up and left. Now when I drop in occassionally, it is mostly no help, just a bunch of hot air, could be any chat room, not tech.. Thats what is just starting to happen here in the forums IMHO. The Tech Lounge (which is becoming one big chat room) has taken priority over the technical forum concept for many.I agree its interesting and sometimes fun to read, but it doesn't prove you are a tech. IMO the posts from Tech Lounge and other non-tech areas should not count in the numbers, it is misleading because it proves no technical skill..
I never intended this whole topic as a flame post, it was intended more as maybe a wake-up call to some people\problems, Anyway I don't intend to post here anymore either, what else can I say... <IMG SRC="smilies/rolleyes.gif" border="0">

PS you know its sad, I had to edit this post like ten times (then I was messing it up doing so) trying to make it so no one would jump down my throat about some small things I say that they twist around to mean different than I intended.
Cuz they will, thats how it is here now.

Are you happy now guys?

You will note that it is the guys that wont see a serious post for what it is, even when it is nailed to their pc monitors.

Yes, there is a bunch of you that really get my goat and go off at tangents. Are you really saying you cannot see that your "jokes" are intimidating to others less, shall we say, ebullient than you? Do you really think that everyone should be as hilarious as you?

There has a change in the last couple of months. The change seems to be centred on less tolerant fun-luvving people who are about as sensitive as a 6" nail.

A number of the well intentioned have tried to point that up and on a couple of occasions recommendations have been made - and of course they were trashed because of the great free speech excuse. There is no excuse for intimidating and making fun of people,

Take a look at yourselves and ask yourself, before you reply, did I take that wrong? Could I ask a question to get clarification before firing off a message to the boards? If I do fundamentally disagree with this post, do I have to be rude too?

Every person that goes unanswered in both the forum and chatroom, or goes away with his/her head ringing with bad jokes or insults is one less customer for this site. Eventually enough people will be chased away for the word to get out that this site is bad news and then you will be stuck with a little site that will only help the bold, the brave and the ones to arrogant and insensitive to be hurt by "jokes".

PS, any of you that think they might like to point up my mistakes are welcome to do so, however, you should also point up that apologies were made and, whether they were accepted or not, I did recognise that I had been insensitive to their needs.

thank you, you are a breath of fresh air in a suffocating world.

Thanks to the rest of you who stood up, those who even at least partially gave me some support or even at least conceded some small point. And thanks even to those who disagreed but in a friendly (you can be friendly and still disagree)sincere, and\or polite way. <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0">