Dangerous Submersive Reporting For Lynching

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Originally posted by Cleetus
Furthermore, for those that truly cannot help themselves, there is so much help for them everywhere. But those that are living in poverty, wallowing in self defeat, not choosing to get the help that is out there so that they can create a better life for themselves and their families, and society in general, then yes they are a waste. I am all for helping those that need it, but there comes a time, for those able, to stand up and do things on their own.

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Okay, due to a refresh problem I didn't see this before posting. I will admit this is well spoken and I appreciate how you distinguish the "deserving" poor from the "non-deserving".

The trouble is, most people don't make that distinction.

They also don't make a distinction between the "deserving" rich and the "non-deserving" rich.

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Originally posted by WebHawg
Third, we don't need to ask Dubya nicely to leave because in 2004 we're gonna VOTE for him to leave.

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Remember, don't vote Republican nor Democrat.

Voting for "the lesser of two evils" is STILL voting for evil!

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Originally posted by Wayward Clam
It's people like you that ruin society... Yes, there ARE people who are poor by choice or by low ability, but I hope you never have to learn the hard way that hard luck happens to hard workers too.

I have proof by personal experience. I have volunteered and worked at a food bank for years and years that serves over 500 people every two weeks. Yes, I will admit there are people who access the food bank who are lazy, dishonest, welfare cheats. I have seen them and will not deny their existence. They make life difficult for us too, as they use up food that should go to people whose hard times are genuinely not of their choice...

However, there are ALSO people who are poor who are abused women, disabled, crime victims, victims of the economy, too old to work, etc.; and there are many unemployed poor who refuse to go on welfare and practically have to be forced to accept help as they will starve before they become a "leech" on someone else. To discriminate against these people because they don't have money in the bank or a large income is a very simple form of the "Might=Right" philosophy. Maybe you disagree with me, but in my books "Might=Right"=Wrong.

And when someone like you votes a candidate into office who cuts funding to my food bank in favour of buying a tank, YOU KILL INNOCENT PEOPLE. People who are hard workers and who are JUST LIKE YOU, Cleetus.

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OK bud, I can agree with the fact that there are a lot of people who are unfortunate and their lives have become difficult to the point where any little thing becomes a crushing burden. This sort of thing happens to people and even though things in our lives often seem beyond control and it often seems the weight of the world is pressing down, the only person who can change is the person having the issues. No amount of tax and redirection of funds for handouts can truly help anyone.

The federal government spends in excess of 1.7 trillion dollars every year. Less than .4 trillion is spent on the military leaving 1.3 trillion for other programs. Sorry, but only 20-25% of the federal budget goes to the military now. Now I’m sure that much of the remainder is bound up in infrastructure, law enforcement and the like but a big percentage of it is spent on social programs. I don’t think that I’d be wrong if I stated that a minimum of half a trillion is spent on social programs. I might be wrong, but I’d make a bet I’m not.

Given that so much money is already thrown at society to help the poor – it proves definitively that social programs only make people more and more dependant upon the government for handouts and do not help. Giving people a handout like we do with most social programs just makes people dependant upon a system and does not foster an attitude that people need to get up and go and do for themselves. The government (yours and mine) has been giving to the poor for years and years and now the tax burden is becoming crushing to us. Military spending was virtually halved over the last 10 years and more and more spent on the poor and I don’t know how you see things but the poor seem no better today than 10, 30 or a thousand years ago.

Getting people to do things for themselves despite adversity is the only thing that will help people in the long run. Granted that some folks have it so bad that there is a long hard climb up the ladder to a better job/way of life but THEY have to CHOOSE to make that climb. I put it to you that the majority of people who do not have in our society can go and do if they so choose but simply do not. The majority of the poor I know of have often placed themselves in the position they are in. Again, granted there are those who truly need a helping hand and are trying to do better, but I personally do not think they represent the bulk of the poor as you believe for the simple fact that if they were trying to better themselves - you would never see them as they would be working and trying to get ahead.

Perfect examples of this:
The newspaper lady in my town - She sells newspapers at 6am to 10am rain, sleet or snow then walks to work at the local McDonalds and works an 8 hour shift. I’m not sure how she got to be poor in the first place but she’s obviously made a decision to stop being poor. Yeah, it’s an uphill climb but I commend her efforts to kick the issues that hold her back and work hard to get what she needs knowing that it may not pay off now but later on in life.

Sorry, but the “oh, the poor people can’t do things for themselves” just doesn’t wash with me. Most able bodied/minded people can go and get up and do. The simply choose the easier path and remain poor and dependant upon others. If they need to work harder to get ahead, then that is what they need to go and do. I did it, you did it, most of the people here did it and most of us struggle every day to keep ahold of what we do have. Many of us had little support from others and didn't have rich parents to put silver spoons in our mouths, we simply worked harder, smarter and better and got the rewards for it.

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Originally posted by Wayward Clam
And when someone like you votes a candidate into office who cuts funding to my food bank in favour of buying a tank, YOU KILL INNOCENT PEOPLE.

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And when you vote for a candidate that won't spend money to protect America, you kill Americans.

Example: a candidate who wont take Osama's head on a silver platter and doesnt have enough b*lls to deal with terrorists. Congrats, you just killed 3000 innocent Americans.

I think I'll take the 1000 or so that *may* starve to death in a year compared to the hundreds of thousands or maybe millions that would be killed by terrorists if nothing is done to protect America.

I'd rather have more Americans safe than giving Crackhead #2 and Alcoholic #5 another sandwich/bowl of soup. Let the government do their job of protecting us and if you think that the "cutbacks" at your food bank are so bad, chip in some of YOUR OWN MONEY to make up the difference.

AND I don't think I've ever seen documented cutbacks in Social Programs to fund the Defense Department. Can you post a link that supports this?

My ex sister in law is poor - she was evicted from her house for non payment of rent because the social security cheque did not arrive in time to pay the arrears and the eviction went through despite the social security saying they will pay.

So 8 weeks later the cheque turns up - what does she do? Pay her arrears off? No...Get the kids a treat? No... Save it for the future? No... she spent it on getting a mobile phone £180 mobile phone..... Thats $270 USD on a freakin cell phone.

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Originally posted by NooNoo
My ex sister in law is poor - she was evicted from her house for non payment of rent because the social security cheque did not arrive in time to pay the arrears and the eviction went through despite the social security saying they will pay.

So 8 weeks later the cheque turns up - what does she do? Pay her arrears off? No...Get the kids a treat? No... Save it for the future? No... she spent it on getting a mobile phone £180 mobile phone..... Thats $270 USD on a freakin cell phone.

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this is the classic example of what gets me so fired up. the complete lack of responsibility. I saw it again the other day at my local convience store as a woman counted out pennies nickels and dimes to buy cigarettes then when she was coming up short put the milk she had back :eek: to have enough to pay for the cigs and get an extra pack.

I don't know maybe it comes from having money just placed in your hand instead of working for it that causes those type of attitudes but it makes me sooo mad.

bad things do often happen to good people, and I feel for those people among the poverty strickened who just happened to be standing right in the path of lifes tornado, but I think there are far less of these types of people amoung the poverty population. I think this because poverty isn't something that just happens to on generation of family these days no it's passed on like some type of new gene. there are people (at least here in the united states) that have collected welfare checks their entire lifes. they have never worked, nor made any effort to work. they live in the same trailer parks and projects as adults that they did as kids. and there is no sense of overwhelming dispair about the situation, no sense of "I gotta get outta here" just a happy resignation that uncle sam will be sending the check the first of the month, and I just have to find ways to fill the time until then.

my dad's whole family is poor and is the absolute definition of white trash. they live in and around a small town called republic pa, which recently had the distinction of having the highest muder rate per capita in the entire state of pa. this town in is fayette county which (from studies a few years ago) had received the highest amount of goverment subsidy (welfare) in the state of pa and at one time recently had the distinction of having the fourth highest teen pregnancy rate in the entire country.

my father could have easily resigned himself to be another generation of poor white trash, but he didn't. he worked hard learned a trade as an apprentice (optical business), worked his way into a major company becoming a regional manager then eventually opened his own shop.

there are ways out of poverty for the hard working. it's not easy or fun but it can be done and lots of people do it. unfortunately there are also a lot of people who don't.

between 30-40% of my check goes to taxes. Now shouldn't I be able to decide what I want to spend my money on? I agree that taxes need to be paid for roads to be paved, the defense of my country and many other noble causes. But what if I'd rather give my money directly to someone who needs it instead of some junky in LA who got aids from a needle or banging some guy to pay for her habit. We pay too much as it is, and from what I hear Canada and England have it worse than we do!

I work my @$$ off just to hear people b!tch that I don't give them enough? Please.

I am not poor, and never been rich.

I remember when I was growing up in high school it was cool to hang out where the bums hung out. It was a great place to get high, and the cops didn’t mess with you. I met a few bums, and drifters, and listened to the storied of how they got there. I even gave my bicycle to one. It was an old 10 speed that weighted more than 35 pounds. I was leaving for the Marines anyway, and figured he could use it. There was only one reason I gave it to him…that night that we met he had a 6 pack of sh!tty beer, and he shared it with me. I don’t know where he got it from, but he didn’t value it more than our brief companionship. He didn’t have to but he did. When I gave him the bike, he was blown away. I had to walk 4 miles home, and he knew that, that meant something to him; he realized that someone in the world gave a crap, even just for that moment.

I have no idea if he kept the bike, sold it, or got it ripped off. It doesn’t matter, because he was a bum. If during that brief moment that he and I met he learned that someone cared that he get off of his @ss and get back in the game, cool; or maybe he just accepted it as another bullsh!t handout like how he probably got the beer, if so than I don’t care.

I hope he got up and made something of himself, if not, screw him, that was over 10 years ago. If he couldn’t get it together in that time, we need to stop giving him handouts so that he will either die, or get back into the game.

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Originally posted by meatwad
between 30-40% of my check goes to taxes

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Gawd Damn! What tax bracket are you in!

Don't forget to exclude SS and Medicare in that percentage...

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Originally posted by Ya_know
Gawd Damn! What tax bracket are you in!

Don't forget to exclude SS and Medicare in that percentage...

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You have to include the State and Local taxes with that, most likely.....you'd find that the 35-40% is more or less a national average.

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Originally posted by Ya_know
Don't forget to exclude SS and Medicare in that percentage...

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BTW, why exclude? It's STILL a tax, however named.

And if you don't believe me, then tell your HR department to stop witholding the SS payments.

Well. I don't like everything that has been said in this thread, but I will certainly grant that most of it has been said very intelligently and logically.

I know there ARE poor who more or less "caused" their situation, and I am not trying to defend them; but I don't really know what to do about them...

I think the problem is, a lot of these people just don't know how to cope, and would not survive if you pulled the financial plug on them. Some would turn to robbery, prostitution, etc. to survive, many would abandon spouses, children, etc., many would die. Many would end up in jail on the public payroll anyways. Very few, I believe, would turn their lives around and become productive members of society.

So what do you do about these people, especially as we have no reliable way to identify the potentially productive members of the group?

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On military spending: A single fighter jet, that's ONE F-18, costs three or four million, right? I don't know how much exactly, but one million dollars US would run the food bank I work at AND eight other identical food banks for a YEAR. I am one hundred percent positive that that would save dozens of lives and help dozens of "productive" members of society get back on their feet.

It's easy to say that the USA needs fighter jets to maintain its army, but do you need so MANY?

I saw on TV that the USA has 13 Supercarrier groups deployed around the world, and two more under construction. ONE of these would easily be enough to conquer (liberate, if you must) most countries (There were FIVE in the Gulf last I heard.)

No other country has more than ONE comparable group.

The cost of an aircraft carrier group is easily more than 1000 times as much as an F-18.

Isn't 14 to 1 good enough odds for you militarily?

If just ONE of those supercarrier groups being built was scrapped, you could build a half a dozen bloody UNIVERSITIES dedicated to nothing but figuring out how to get better bang for your buck when throwing money at social problems... I'm sure then that the return from that would easily pay for all the aircraft carriers you could want in the long run...

You see this is the big problem. On one side you have those that would complain and gripe about all their money being taken away in taxes. They site the cases of their money being thrown away on the welfare cheats. Yet do no come up with any viable solutions to the problem.

Then on the other side, you have people telling us how we should have more compassion, siting statistics from defense or other areas where we could be spending the money on more welfare. All along, just shuffling more money, and still no viable solutions to the problem.

The problem is that there are many out there who need some help, yet there are also those that won't help themselves. It really isn't black or white, nothing ever is. You have to do the best that you can do while showing a good mix of both backbone, and sympathy.

The same with the war(bringing the thread full circle), we could have sat back and kept negotiating, and something could have happened. Then again, something might not have either. Life is full of difficult choices, and sometimes unfortunately innocent people get stuck in the middle. Study the past, learn from the past, but don't dwell on the past, use it to make a better tomorrow.

This is of course why these days, I can't identify with any political party(yes, that includes the libertarians too). More rhetoric than anything, and nobody has the balllls to say it like it really is, but I do still hold on to the belief that we must help where we can, and sometimes,yes, that does involve government aid.

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Originally posted by paraflyer
You have to include the State and Local taxes with that, most likely.....you'd find that the 35-40% is more or less a national average.

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I don't have a state tax!!! :D

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Originally posted by paraflyer
BTW, why exclude? It's STILL a tax, however named.

And if you don't believe me, then tell your HR department to stop witholding the SS payments.

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But it isn't a tax like the ones we were discussing, SS is typically for old people, or kids that lose a parent, and Medicare goes towards old people too. None of that money goes to things like welfare.

BTW, My taxes withheld is not a dime more than 20% last I looked, and I usually get a couple hundred back in the return. If you are one of those that is getting like 2-4 thousand back in the return, then you need to adjust your withholdings and keep the money in your pocket. That is why your seeing such a high deduction…