Dangerous Submersive Reporting For Lynching

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Originally posted by Wayward Clam
On military spending: A single fighter jet, that's ONE F-18, costs three or four million, right?

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Wrong. an F-18a has a selling price of $35 mil, US (that is $50m can). but that is just the dammed plane.
add:
parts for 1 year ($300 000)
fuel and oil, etc ($200 000)
weapons+ammo($300 000 to $2M /year in peace time. a lot more at war)
training a pilot and keeping him for 5 years ($2.5 to $3M)

and having that soar in our skies: worthless.

(meanwhile, budget for rescue boats/huey/planes, CF415, rescue crews, coast guards etc.. is left at the same low level it was 15 y ago.)

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Originally posted by Wayward Clam

I saw on TV that the USA has 13 Supercarrier groups deployed around the world, and two more under construction. ONE of these would easily be enough to conquer (liberate, if you must) most countries (There were FIVE in the Gulf last I heard.)

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Not to contradict everything you have said, I want to point out why we maintain such a massive navel force. During WWII the USA was able to defend two far off lands, splitting forces around the globe, and was victorious while not a single battle occurred in the continental United States! I would have to consult a knowledgeable source, but I know we lost more than just one or two carrier groups during the war with Japan. We also had navel forces in Europe to land Marines on the beaches, and pound the shores with the 22" cannons; many ships were lost to German U-Boats.

If today, while we were in Iraq, segmented and pinned down in the seas there, we still must maintain a presence deployed around the world to prevent an upstart, like Japan in the 1940's, from attacking us or any of our interests. 13 carrier groups may be allot against one country, but when you are the defender of the free world you have to be big in preparation for massive multiple offensives, and be able to withstand surmountable losses in order to prevent defeat.

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Originally posted by Ya_know
But it isn't a tax like the ones we were discussing, SS is typically for old people, or kids that lose a parent, and Medicare goes towards old people too. None of that money goes to things like welfare.

BTW, My taxes withheld is not a dime more than 20% last I looked, and I usually get a couple hundred back in the return. If you are one of those that is getting like 2-4 thousand back in the return, then you need to adjust your withholdings and keep the money in your pocket. That is why your seeing such a high deduction…

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Nope, I rarely see more than a few hundred (at most) for the Federal return. Couple that with what goes out for the State and Local, then it's a respectable chunk.

I still maintain that SS is a tax, though...hell, the term "Social" security sums it all up, just another social program. It's still money taken from one party and given to another, no matter which way you look at it. I'd rather not have it witheld, and invest the cash in my own 401k or something with a better return when I retire.

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Originally posted by Ya_know
Not to contradict everything you have said, I want to point out why we maintain such a massive navel force. During WWII the USA was able to defend two far off lands, splitting forces around the globe, and was victorious while not a single battle occurred in the continental United States! I would have to consult a knowledgeable source, but I know we lost more than just one or two carrier groups during the war with Japan. We also had navel forces in Europe to land Marines on the beaches, and pound the shores with the 22" cannons; many ships were lost to German U-Boats.

If today, while we were in Iraq, segmented and pinned down in the seas there, we still must maintain a presence deployed around the world to prevent an upstart, like Japan in the 1940's, from attacking us or any of our interests. 13 carrier groups may be allot against one country, but when you are the defender of the free world you have to be big in preparation for massive multiple offensives, and be able to withstand surmountable losses in order to prevent defeat.

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I'll second that. The other UN member states have yet to offer anything near what the US has if a conflict arises. This is a fine example of what's to be seen when the US is viewed as the "world's police force", the UN always looks for the US to provide the majority of the fire and manpower.

And it certainly cannot be done with only two or three battle groups, else what would be left to defend our own shores when they are all deployed elsewhere?

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Originally posted by Ya_know
Sam Kenison said it best, execute the homeless!!!

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Sam also said something about Richard Gere and a hamster...

:eek:

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Originally posted by Wayward Clam
[B]So because the politics isn't from my own country, I should butt out? Hmmm, does US foreign policy follow this philosophy?

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You're welcome to butt in the next time we attack you.

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You're right, there is a difference. The difference is that Bush gets his riches as kickbacks and bribes under the table instead of just taking them openly.

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Have to agree there. That's politics. But, it's not just Bush, it's all of them.

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It's people like you that ruin society... Yes, there ARE people who are poor by choice or by low ability, but I hope you never have to learn the hard way that hard luck happens to hard workers too.

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I have some personal experience with hard luck myself. After I broke my neck I had a few years to sit on my ***, collect social security (both kinds because I had a full time job before the accident), and get stoned all day. Living on the dole does nothing to reward hard work. It's only a tit you get used to sucking. If somebody hadn't had a long talk with me I'd still be there. People are responsible for their own success or failure. Some physical and mental problems can't be beaten and I agree that there should be some kind of cusion for those people. For the rest, sometimes it takes a swift kick in the *** to get them moving (I know, that's what it took me.)

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And when someone like you votes a candidate into office who cuts funding to my food bank in favour of buying a tank, YOU KILL INNOCENT PEOPLE. People who are hard workers and who are JUST LIKE YOU, Cleetus.

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Thousands of hard working people get paid building those tanks. Engineers, managers, blue collar workers, these are the people who keep their jobs building a tank. If forced to choose between the homeless and those workers, I choose those workers every single time.

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I'm sorry Cleetus, but sometimes it really IS that black and white. I hope you never have to see it from the other side first hand, because I guarantee you those who share your political view now will have no sympathy for you then.

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Yes, it is black and white. But I think you're missing part of the picture. I'm sure it feels good though to stick up for all those hungry people who can't stick up for themselves.

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Originally posted by Ya_know
But it isn't a tax like the ones we were discussing, SS is typically for old people, or kids that lose a parent, and Medicare goes towards old people too. None of that money goes to things like welfare.

BTW, My taxes withheld is not a dime more than 20% last I looked, and I usually get a couple hundred back in the return. If you are one of those that is getting like 2-4 thousand back in the return, then you need to adjust your withholdings and keep the money in your pocket. That is why your seeing such a high deduction…

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It is a tax. The government collects it and redistributes it as it sees fit and raids the funds as they please.

You may only pay 20% income tax if your state does not take anything but most of us pay around 23% income tax. Realize that this is only the tax you get to see. There is also sales tax, land tax, tarrifs, gas tax, sin tax and a whole slew of things we never see. You pay a tax on every single thing you have and probably multiple times at that. In the end you wind up paying near 35-40% of your wages to the government.

Given this an average person doing fairly well making 30k a year will only take home about 18k and if single get back about $400. When you look at the big tax picture and not just income tax it becomes obvious that something is wrong. Yeah we have a great military and yeah theres law enforcement and other whatnot but social programs are the greatest draw from your money.

Imagine for one moment that all the money you paid into SS or Medicare was no longer taken and you instead could spend it on insurance and could save it. By the end of your life you would have a really decent chunk of dough socked away and could afford decent insurance when older (medicare doesn't cover a heck of a lot by the way). Also, your employer would not be paying into these program and maybe they could give you better benefits or a raise (not likely) or more likely could create more jobs.

Government social programs erode at the very foundation of our society. Yeah, I understand a safety net and no I'm not saying we need to get rid of everything but the more we spend the more we have to tax and whereas it is one persons perogative to give to the needy, it may not be mine and I do not enjoy my freedom to choose being taken away. Realize all that tax money does not belong to the government but to you and me and you and you and you. Your and my work efforts are supporting someone else, young or old.

I for one see 25% in income tax between my TWO jobs I have to work to maintain my lifestyle which ain't luxurious I can tell you. Every extra effort I make turns into redirected revenue for another human that I have never met. So little of my money actually goes into something physical like highway repair and so much goes to things I can't see that I am beginning to fail to see the reasoning behind even trying to do better. People need incentive to do better. We need a reason to try but when you have nearly half of your money going to something else it really makes it seem like it's all for naught even though I and you get up day after day and continue to try harder.

I just can't buy into the "oh the poor" and "they can't do it" anymore. This sort of attitude is almost insulting as it tells people that they are not as wothwhile as others or that they aren't as good because they are less intelligent or the color of there skin is different or whatever. Most folks need a collective kick in the rear to get them going and to want more. Sure there's lots of people who have legitimate reasons for not doing but thay are the exception and NOT the rule. Quite honestly, the poor folks I know have all made the decision to not do well in life by not trying harder. The ex's hubby decided he wasn't going to work for the summer, GF's friends hubby decided he only wanted to work 20 hours a week, my bud decided to drop out of school because he could not get up and then got his girlie pregnant, they all made decisions in life. Others decided to get loans and go to school, wear a condom and are working at the same time. Loans are available for seconday school, public schools are not that hard to get through to earn a diploma, there is always a job somewhere that pays enought to get by if you can clean yourself up enough to get it or move to where you can get it.

I tell ya folks taxation with representation isn't what it's cracked up to be! ;)
My wife and I are in the 30.5% bracket. It's good that Alaska doesn't have an income tax, or I would have to get a second job ;) !

All of you people with so much time on your hands to say this and that about taxes, and social policies, and weaponry, and spending and politicians...Why don't you run for office? Maybe you could do us some good, instead of wasting time in here. I have a feeling even if you were in office, people would still complain. You just can’t please all of the people all of the time!

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Originally posted by Ya_know
All of you people with so much time on your hands to say this and that about taxes, and social policies, and weaponry, and spending and politicians...Why don't you run for office? Maybe you could do us some good, instead of wasting time in here. I have a feeling even if you were in office, people would still complain. You just can’t please all of the people all of the time!

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I'd have failed the pee test...:rolleyes:

Might do so in the future but it's fairly difficult when you aren't a part of a major party like the demipublicans or the rupublicrats and personally I'm not.:( This would be a long way away for me though.

btw - that rant was not directed at you.;)

The funny thing is, world loves to b*tch about how America does this, America does that. America doesn't do this, America doesn't do that. America should not do this, America shouldn't do that. America needs to this that. America is a bully in this country, why doesn't America help that country, me me me me whine whine whine whine B*tch B*tch B*tch!

In response to the world saying that we meddle in the world's affairs to much, I ask the world "experts" these questions.

What would most lkely happen if America closed all of the military bases around the world and brought all of the service men and women home?

What might happen to the world if America withdrew from the United Nations?

What might happen if America withdrew from most of the alliance treaties such as NATO?

What might happen if America stoped supplying foreign aid to other countries for things such as economic assitance or AIDS research?

What might happen if America stoped giving a rat's a$$ about anything that happened in the world that didn't directly affect America?

America is not perfect. Want to know why? Because we are human. *GASP!!* Say it isn't so!! Well, we are. But the big difference that America has over many other nations of the world IS WE TRY!

We try to produce a way of life that benefit as many people as possible. Are we perfect at it? No. But we try. We try to make things better for other countries that need a helping hand. Are we perfect at it? No. But we try. We try to fund research for diseases like AIDS in poverity stricken countries. Are we pefect at it? No. But we try.

I am so sick of most of the whole frickin world yelling at us because of what we don't do here, what we don't do there.They complain about what we might be doing in one place, but ignore what good we might be doing in another location. Nelson Mendella (sp?) in South Africa called the United States of America, " A country that doesn't care for the worlds' people" 2 days AFTER the US gave close to $10 million to South Africa for AIDS research and prevention.

I think the most of the world needs to wake the F up and take a look around to see how much their countries contribute to the better of the whole world. They I think would be surprised at how little they actually do.

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Originally posted by Drone2903
Wrong. an F-18a has a selling price of $35 mil, US (that is $50m can). but that is just the dammed plane.
add:
parts for 1 year ($300 000)
fuel and oil, etc ($200 000)
weapons+ammo($300 000 to $2M /year in peace time. a lot more at war)
training a pilot and keeping him for 5 years ($2.5 to $3M)

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putting a laser guided bomb into a restaurant where a murdering dictator is having dinner (and thereby saving the lives of thousands of troops and civilians): PRICELESS

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Originally posted by Jediab
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We try to produce a way of life that benefit as many people as possible. Are we perfect at it? No. But we try. We try to make things better for other countries that need a helping hand. Are we perfect at it?

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I think the most of the world needs to wake the F up and take a look around to see how much their countries contribute to the better of the whole world. They I think would be surprised at how little they actually do.

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Although it is a lot more complex then all of your questions, from a stepped back perspective this is as true as it gets.

From state to federal, there are hundreds of thousands of legislators, judges, and executives in government, that can't all be policed. Corruption will occur. Collectively bad decisions are made because due process fouled up the original idea, or special interests are involved. Things are sorted in order of perceived precedence, and sometimes things get put off erroneously. The process is less than perfect, but it is always open for improvement with the right support.

Nelson Mandela was a thug, he advocating death, violence and mass destruction, his wife was lieing butchering just general mean person. I don't trust anything that man says or does.

Dammit, I almost made it through this time without having to respond to something!

I am very pleased to hear the intelligent things I am hearing from people on the other side of the fence.

But once more unto the breach:

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Originally posted by Jediab
What would most lkely happen if America closed all of the military bases around the world and brought all of the service men and women home?

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You would lose a huge amount of your international military presence.

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Originally posted by Jediab
What might happen to the world if America withdrew from the United Nations?

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You would lose a huge amount of your international political power.

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Originally posted by Jediab
What might happen if America withdrew from most of the alliance treaties such as NATO?

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You would lose a lot of allies.

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Originally posted by Jediab
What might happen if America stoped supplying foreign aid to other countries for things such as economic assitance or AIDS research?

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You would lose ties with them, and lose all of the brains and economy you have that come from those other countries.

(As a side note, do you want to know what Canada's biggest economic problem is? Too many of our best workers move to the USA and contribute to your technology and taxes and population instead of ours. We would LOVE to have you stop this from happening.)

If you really cut yourself off from the world like this, who do you think would go and be the new best friends of everybody you alienated? China? Russia? North Korea? The Islamic countries? Are you really proposing that you want to go back and lose the global Cold War you spent so much effort and money winning? No, America will never do these things you propose, and it's not out of the good of its heart, it's because you would lose your power, your economy, and your king of the hill status.

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Originally posted by Jediab
What might happen if America stoped giving a rat's a$$ about anything that happened in the world that didn't directly affect America?

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Your leaders already did.

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Originally posted by Jediab
America is not perfect. Want to know why? Because we are human. *GASP!!* Say it isn't so!! Well, we are. But the big difference that America has over many other nations of the world IS WE TRY!

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Now that is TWO interesting statements. The trouble I have with them is that the Americans in charge (not garden variety US citizens) don't want to admit that they are human and capable of making mistakes, and yes, in fact, other countries try too, so that does NOT qualify as a difference. The Canadian army may be infinitismal compared to yours, but what do you suppose its primary function is? Peacekeeping. Same for the Germans and the Aussies and dozens of other countries. Just cause we aren't as rich as you, doesn't mean we don't contribute as high or higher a percentage of what we do have.

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Originally posted by Jediab
We try to produce a way of life that benefit as many people as possible. Are we perfect at it? No. But we try. We try to make things better for other countries that need a helping hand. Are we perfect at it? No. But we try. We try to fund research for diseases like AIDS in poverity stricken countries. Are we pefect at it? No. But we try.

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I can't and won't argue with this. There are millions of wonderful Americans who work alongside the rest of the world to help solve the world's problems. You DO deserve the credit for this.

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Originally posted by Jediab
I am so sick of most of the whole frickin world yelling at us because of what we don't do here, what we don't do there.They complain about what we might be doing in one place, but ignore what good we might be doing in another location. Nelson Mendella (sp?) in South Africa called the United States of America, " A country that doesn't care for the worlds' people" 2 days AFTER the US gave close to $10 million to South Africa for AIDS research and prevention.

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Has it ever occurred to you that BOTH of your viewpoints might be true? The fact that there are GOOD Americans doesn't disprove the fact that there are BAD Americans, nor is the reverse true.

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Originally posted by Jediab
I think the most of the world needs to wake the F up and take a look around to see how much their countries contribute to the better of the whole world. They I think would be surprised at how little they actually do.

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Again, this coin has two sides. America does a lot of good... but it ALSO does a lot of damage. You're right, most countries don't have the money or power to do the good you do... but most countries don't do nearly the damage you do either.

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In the end, you know what? You are right in some ways. I would rather see Bush in charge of the world than Hitler or Hussein. The trouble is, once again, it is a lesser-of-two-evils question. I'll go back to my old analogy. Fatal cancer is better than a sucking chest wound, but why would you willingly accept either of them?