New to Programming

So I've pretty much gone as far as I want to as a hardware tech, been doing it for just about 10 years now and I'd like to learn programming.

Yesterday, while in a local new/used computer shop I picked up Microsoft Visual Studio '97 for $20. This includes Visual Basic, Visual C++, Visual J++, Visual FoxPro and Visual InterDev.

So my questions are...

1) Is the software I picked up of any practical use to someone just starting out learning programming?

2) Besides the free compilers that come with Linux, how much does a modern compiler cost?

3) What languages are prevalent these days?

4) And finally, what's the difference between Visual C++ and plain ol' C++? Is this just Microsoft's version of a C++ compiler?

I'm looking forward to the career change, thanks for any advice on this. :thumbs:

Anyone...? Bueller...Bueller...Bueller...?

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1) Is the software I picked up of any practical use to someone just starting out learning programming?

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For $20 it's OK to give you a start.

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2) Besides the free compilers that come with Linux, how much does a modern compiler cost?

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VB .net $100; The whole Visual Studio .net some $600

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3) What languages are prevalent these days?

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Visual C++, C#, VB. Also Java with a "but".

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4) And finally, what's the difference between Visual C++ and plain ol' C++? Is this just Microsoft's version of a C++ compiler?

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Try to make a program with a GUI in ol' C++...

Visual C++ can be used as a straight C++ compiler. There are a few naming errata that are different from standards, but you have to get used to these. The package you have is fine for learning C++.

Visual J++ has really fallen out of usage. J++ is a buggy version of java, and is several years out of date, and MS treats it as a red-headed stepchild. C++ is still current. .NET is the latest offering, but in general it tends to be harder to use (more complex). If you want to learn java you can download the java development kit from sun.com and DrJava (Design environment) - both are free. If it was me, I would focus on C++, Java, and Python (another free programming language). C++ and Java are fairly similar, alrthough Java is slightly harder to learn. Python is powerful, and is one of the easist languages I have seen to learn.

Python would be a good choice to start off programming - to get your feet wet. My university started people into Java and C++, probably half the students dropped out because they could not understand both the theory and the implementation. Java and C++ have a lot of things you have to get exactly right to do even a simple "Hello World" program. Python has a nearly 1:1 ratio between statements and results; the theory is almost the implementation.

Once you know the basics of programming (program flow, procedures, making decisions) then picking up another language is a lot easier. Think of it like playing music. Someone who can read sheet music well can pick up any instrument a lot quicker than someone who is new to the instrument AND new to reading music.

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The "Visual" aspect of it relates to some of the aspects that make it easier to design applications. For instance, if you are using Visual C++ as just a normal C++ copmpiler, you have to write the code for everything. Something as simple as colored text in a console window takes extra pages of code. You can do everything this way, but be prepared for a lot of frustration and a lot of work to do anything besides console apps. Programs made in this way will be generally more work, but you have an exact control over everything. Programs made in this manner will be much smaller and have less dependancies.

If designing applications visually (and especially if you are using Microsoft Foundation Classes) it becomes much easier to design a working user interface. You can draw a window, specify how you want the icons to look, etc. You still have to handle the C++ code that ties it all together, but the interface code does not have to be coded by you. This does two things: #1, it frees you from having to explicityl handle every mouse movement, every system event, every design element of the screen. Secondly, it means your program will be similar in appearance to 99% of other programs, similar enough that people can use it without knowing all the details. A very nice thing about a GUI is things behave predictably. Programs will be bigger and have a lot of dependent files.

Nobody said ... so go take a class if you've never done any at all IMHO, it'll give you at least the foundations & principle whatever level or language you choose to take - if you need to ask the differnce between c & visual c you can't know any basic stuff at all, or did you want a better explanation than you might have had .. shadowwynd covers it good :thumbs:

But it gives you 'try before you buy' - programming takes a certain mentality ;)

Much thanks for the replies, guys, you've given me a good direction to start things off. I'm thinking I'll try out Python and Visual C++ and once I've written my own operating system I'll be sure to include you guys in the credits that I hide in the Easter Egg. Thanks again. :thumbs2:

Shadowynnd is right on.

J++ is basically orphaned, there is no reason to even look at it as there certainly won't be any significant new programming on that platform, and there weren't that many to begin with.

VB (version 6 and older) days are numbered as well. I am sure I will catch a lot of flame for saying that, lol, but, IMHO, it is a sad, but true fact. MS screwed thousands of VB "implementors". The entire purpose of VB was to provide a powerful method for customizing MS Office applications, and it does that very well (VBA). Later it was extended and bloated to be a fairly proficient "language" for simple, or medium complexity, MS OS targeted GUI client apps. It is also, by far, the easiset tool for developing COM applications. It hides 99% of the tedium that is COM. Remember, Microsoft's motto ought to be: Microsoft, we put the COM in COMplications! It was a cool RAD prototyping tool, but it has several critical architectural flaws preventing it from ever being a serious "language", especially on the server side. Client side, it definitely had a role. Since Microsoft has essentially all but abandoned COM, VB will slowly fade away, as it should, over the next 10 years or so (some say 3-5 years, but there is so much more work being done by VB p-code, it is staggering, I think it will linger on for a significant while). Most VB jobs now are for maintenance of legacy apps, with a bit of new development, in the less wise houses, which is not much fun, IMHO.

The "new" kid on MS platforms (c.a. Oct. 2001) is .NET. I would venture to say that C# is a combination of Java and VB done right. It is a very well architected language, that deserves a tip of the hat to the designers. I believe the same guy that did Borland's Object Pascal was heavily involved with C# (Anders Hejlsberg). There are only 75 keywords! The downfall of .NET at the moment, is the absolutely abysmal performance on typical hardware. The CLR (Common Language Runtime) is a great concept, no doubt, but to get the enourmous flexibility that it offers to perform at acceptable levels, takes some pretty big freaking iron! It appears the minimum footprint of a CLR app is 6-9 MB, even if all it does is "Hello World!" The UI's feel spongy at best. On higher end hardware, you don't notice so much, except for the big hit on loading the CLR, if it isn't already loaded. Server side, as long as the server has the iron, .NET is a fairly easy to use platform for implementing Web Services and even plain windows services. ASP.NET is an order of magnitude better than it's predecessor and definitely deserves a look. J#? I still don't see the point with C# as an option. I say the same thing about VB.NET, what is the point? The real power of VB was the RAD aspect it had. That aspect is severely blunted, or rather, VB.NET has no significant RAD advantage over the other .NET languages. MS appears to be married to .NET and C#, and may sink or swim depending on how it goes. Just remember, any platform centric language, or tools, are risky bets, even if the platform is MS. They have a long history of trumpeting new technologies, only to abandon them 5 years later. I would wager if .NET looks to be sinking, MS will abandon/divorce it as well, as so they should. Where does that leave you, as a programmer with a platform centric skill, that has been abandoned by forces beyond your control? One word: Screwed.

Here's a brief list of the Screwed:

VB: Screwed
COM: Screwed (eventually)
DCOM: Screwed
ATL: Screwed (eventually)
J++: Screwed from the Get Go
J#: Please
MFC: MS is trying very hard to divest itself of this technology, but I don't think it can practically do it. Thus, I would say that MFC knowledge is good to have, but may be headed towards the "maintenance" and "deprecated" stack soon.)

The next iterations of MS OS's are supposedly going to be CLR based, thus we can hope the sponge in the .NET/CLR UI's gets improved, and the loadtime hit with current .NET/CLR apps will be eliminated. We can only hope however. No CLR app will ever be able to compete with a pure C++ app for performance.

Notice there is one language that is NOT on the screwed list: C++. Even in the .NET framework, C++ can leverage the managed extensions. Or not. No other language on the .NET framework has that choice.

IMHO, if a person interested in starting out in programming as a serious endeavour for a new carreer, or as a carreer, not to "Dabble", I would advise them to learn C++. It seems to be in the best cross-platform position and "future proofed" because of this. Be warned, there is an enourmous amount of tedium with C++! It is really not for the dabbler. For GUI programming on MS Platforms, the MS "Studio" tools are by far the best, and again, IMHO, there is no comparison. The VS.NET IDE is really well done. True there is a learning curve, but it is definitely worth it. Lots of the "bells and whistles" can rescue you from the tons of tedium and freaking typing that it takes to make a C++ GUI app work. I don't have any personal experience with Python, but what I have read and heard about it mirrors ShadowWynd's post. Seems like it would be a good place to start for "dabbling" and potentially as a serious tool as well.

For a C++ based cross-platform alternative to MFC, Tcl, X, etc, for GUI and other elements, you owe it to yourself to check out TrollTech's Qt Toolkit (http://www.trolltech.com or search for TrollTech or Qt on google). Those guys have done some very, very, very nice work there. You can use the MS VS Studio (on MS Platforms) to manage your projects, which is nice. The TrollTech class libraries and widgets are elegant, and it appears to be one of the best implementations of an object model out there. Their Slot/Socket mechanism is brilliant! The Linux kit is free for non-commercial applications so you can test-drive it for no risk. Check them out at least, you won't be sorry!

Best of luck! And remember, to adopt the programmers credo: "We make computers harder to use, and more unstable, everyday! It's what we do!" It is a mission really :devil:

BoH

Wow. That was practically a thesis. :) I'll be sure to check out the link you suggested and like I said I'll look into Python and C++. Thanks again for the info.

BOHICA throws down some great information there. Tip of the hat to you ol' boy.

My background:

I have an Associates degree in programming with a C++ emphasis. I can attest to the overwhelming tedium involved in this language. I can also point out that this language is the foundation to many other languages and is therefore a solid choice for a programming career.

Any great programmer is an engineer at heart. I didn't know this starting out or I might have thought differently about this career choice. Meaning I am not a great engineer. I am good at it, but not great.

Looking back I would have focused more on learning programming logic and engineering skills before I set out to learn programming. These skills are invaluable to programmers. I found programming logic to be quite mundain and pushed through it painfully. What I know now is that programming logic is the first building block to creating any application. This is common sense, to programmers, but it was the kind of common sense that I lacked. So I wanted to point that aspect out to you.

I started out dabbling in Visual Basic, got a degree in C++, and am now back to programming using Visual Basic. The bulk of my experience is using Visual Basic 6. I have not used Visual Basic .Net, but I do know that it is quite different than Visual Basic 6. If your going to learn Visual Basic I would recommend learning .Net.

My thoughts on Visual Basic:

Visual Basic is extremely useful in office settings. I'm not sure where else it could shine as well as it does in the office environment. You can create extremely useful tools and small applications to help office staff in a myriad of scenarios in a very small amount of time and commitment. Using Visual Basic 6 I have created com objects that perform data collection from disparate locations such as e-mails on an exchange server, internal and external websites, and files on a file server. Bringing the data together in a single repository such as an access or sql server database or a even a spreadsheet. I have created small and large database front-ends used by 1 to 20 users.

I have found that to create quick and dirty applications (especially in the office environment) Visual Basic and VBA (Visual Basic for Applications) are great tools. You can create a database front end quite quickly using Visual Basic. Also it's amazing how easy it is to tie all the office applications together using Visual Basic and/or VBA. Such as a Word document that pulls information from spread sheets and/or databases and then formats the information for you.

I have been programming in Visual Basic 6 for the last 2 years. I am still finding jobs that are looking for Visual Basic 6, VBA, and VBScript (Windows Scripting Host) skills. As long as companies use Microsoft Office applications they will want programmers who know VBA. I haven't seen a company yet that doesn't use Microsoft Office applications.

My thoughts on Microsoft Visual Studio:

If you are going to be programming with Microsoft Visual Studio I would strongly recommend going .Net. The difference between .Net and the other versions of Visual Studio are very significant. Also Visual Basic 6 and it's previous versions are a far cry from Object Oriented Languages. VB.Net closes a lot of the gap between Visual Basic 6 and other Object Oriented Languages.

My thoughts on Visual Basic being screwed:

BOHICA says VB is screwed and it may be in the long run, but like so many legacy systems at large and small companies alike it will be around for a long time.

It will also live as long as there is no other means for RAD among the less experienced programmers. After all time is money.

And again I say, wow. Thanks for the highly detailed information guys. I've now got very specific ideas about what direction to go in, my only remaining concern is that my math skills are on par with those of a standard 3rd grader. A mildy retarded 3rd grader. With a lobotomy. So, what I'm saying is that my math skills aren't so hot.

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Originally Posted by Percy

And again I say, wow. Thanks for the highly detailed information guys. I've now got very specific ideas about what direction to go in, my only remaining concern is that my math skills are on par with those of a standard 3rd grader. A mildy retarded 3rd grader. With a lobobomy. So, what I'm saying is that my math skills aren't so hot.

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Programmings about logic & clear thinking not math ! ;)

Cool. Logic and clear thinking I can do. I'm hoping that there's also a creative side to programming, yes? Doing hardware hardly ever requires any real creativity, it's mostly just doing the same repetitive tasks year after year with the only real changes being in how fast the new hardware is.

And I swear by my beard that if I have to explain how to use msconfig to someone one more time, there will be dire consequences. :flames:

I think to be a good programmer you have to be 'creative' or at least inventive & lateral, how truley creative you can be depends what you get to do at what level ... there can be a fair old bit of tedium sometimes, depends what kind of work you do.

Well, mostly I hope to do programs for game companies and pron sites...So I think that'll help boost my creativity functions...

i started out as a cobol programmer, then went to Peoplesoft. did some html and asp in there as well. if you want to be creative, don't go into a large corporate environment. creativity is pretty much not appreciated in corporate america, no matter how many "think outside the box" posters they have on the walls.

also, i would be somewhat concerned about the continuing shift of programming skills/jobs to asia and india. you should be ok, because you have the hardware side to fall back on, and the languages you are pursuing are not the most commonly outsourced ones, but you never know.

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Originally Posted by Percy

Well, mostly I hope to do programs for game companies and pron sites...So I think that'll help boost my creativity functions...

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