"My rights have been violated!"

Recently, our supplier has been shipping their systems with BIOS-locked recovery CDs. This was a decision that both they, and Microsoft came to.
If you arent' aware, the BIOS-locked recovery CD is like those recovery CDs used by IBM, Acer, Compaq, NEC, etc, etc, etc...
Well, we got a call from a customer (a very irate customer) who was screaming, "Where's my Windows 98 CD?"
I said, (thinking that it was forgotten to be put back in the box) "You don't have the CD that says, 'System Recovery'?"
"YES! I HAVE THAT CD!"
"Well, that's your legitimate copy of Windows 98."
"How do I know that it's a real copy of Windows 98?"
"Well, you have the Certificate of Authenticity which shows that it is a legal piece of software."
She started going off at me about the manufacturer's decision. I told them that it was to protect themselves, and Microsoft from piracy, and it was the manufacturer's decision, and I had nothing to do with it.
She then started to go off about, "What gives them the right to make my moral decisions? If I want to make copies of this CD, I should be allowed to."
I told her that it was illegal to do that, and she kept going on about how her rights had been violated.
I appologized to her that there was nothing I can do, since I'm not the owner, and that I would discuss her situation with the owner, and he would call her back.
Again, she started to go on about how she hadn't gotten a copy of Windows with her system and she should have. I again explained to her that the recovery CD was a legitimate copy of Windows, and it could only be used with her system. I also told her that 90% of computer manufacterers practice this as it makes it easier for them to build the systems like that, and it also reduced piracy since that copy can only be used on their system.
She started to go on about, "Well, I called around to other computer stores, and they all send out copies of Windows."
I explained to her that those were systems built in store, and if she were to talk to IBM, Acer, Compaq, etc, they would all tell her the same thing I was. Then I explained to her again that I cannot change anything until I talk with the owner, and he would call her back.
Finally, after about 20 minutes, I got her off the phone.
As soon as the boss got back, I told him the situation. Apparently, he had talked to her husband earlier in the day who was in complaining about the same thing, and he told him everything I told her. So, he called her, and said that we'd talk to the manufacturer and see what they could do, and they in essence said, "Sorry about your luck."
So, it came down to it, and the boss told her that our hands were tied, and it was a valid and legal decision made by Microsoft, and our supplier, and if she didn't like it she could return the computer.
So, she returned the computer.

Any one else have this problem with recovery CDs being sent out with systems? We sold hundreds of systems with these recovery CDs, but only had one person scream like that. We had a few call and say, "I don't think I got my Windows" and we told them that the CD that said, "Recovery CD" was their legal copy of Windows, and they understood.

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***the Beast
- Fate drove me here...then told me to get out of the car...

is she saying she cannot make a copy of the recovery cd? i know that some game cds like for sony playstation can't be copied(well, unless you modify your burner)but are the recovery cd's not copyable as well?
Oh and by the way. I think that advertising a system comes with win98 and then giving a recovery,bios locked cd is CRIMINAL, and false advertising. As long as you say it is a limited use win98(only for that machine)it is OK in my book, however.

[This message has been edited by techs (edited October 25, 2000).]

Actually, on our pricing sheets, it DOES say, "Windows 98 manual & Recovery CD". She was upset that she couldn't take the CD, and upgrade her daughters' computers to Windows 98.

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***the Beast
- Fate drove me here...then told me to get out of the car...

You had a tuff one on your hands, but as long as it says recovery cd in your adveritising then I would have gave her the two options of return the pc or live with it. You have more patience then I do. Kudos to you....

I'm proud of your boss!! I'm so sick of customers griping about their "rights" or how your shop "continually and knowingly screws people over." I work with a shop where the owner crumbles at the first sign of a disgruntled customer. He would have handed them a valid license to shut them up. Once your reputation gets tarnished like that, every one that person knows who bought a PC from you will gripe about every problem they can imagine.

"You need to upgrade me to Millenium, this PC I bought last year only has 98."
--Substitute with Pentium III
--x amount of RAM
--x" monitor

They'll get away with it because they know you'll crumble if they gripe..

--So says Polychronopolis..

Beast, I feel your pain. We sell both pre-built and in-house systems at my place, and recently, they prebuilts have been coming with BIOS locked restore CDs in an uncopyable binary image, and a seperate disk with all the cab/driver files. A guy called up last week absolutely livid that he couldn't install Windows ME on his laptop. I told him that I couldn't help him commit piracy, and THAT was precisely why the manufacturer had switched to a BIOS locked disk.

Customers always want to bitch and moan about their "rights". Why don't they ever exercise their right RIGHT to remain silent.

I agree, if the user wants a windows cd, they should go and buy one. Then it is out of the companies hands if it gets copied.

That's what we were laughing about. An upgrade version of Win 98 costs about $150 Canadian... She put in more than $150 in blood, sweat, and tears that she could have saved her heartache by going out and buying the upgrade version of 98 to install on her 4 other systems.

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***the Beast
- Fate drove me here...then told me to get out of the car...

What happens when you get another PC... or upgrade such that the BIOS locked version won't work. You have to buy another copy of Windows and ship yours with the old stuff!!! You shouldn't have to buy another copy of windows just because you change to a newer PC.

Funny you should mention this. I needed a faster PC quick, and didn't have time to do the usual build myself (I no longer own my own shop) so I grabbed a Dell 4100. It came with a BIOS locked disk - and the web site (which I took a cap of) said "includes Windows 98 SE". Nothing about a BIOS locked disk. So I used the computer for the software demo, and called for an RMA. When asked for a reason, I said "Because Dell thinks I'm too stupid to ever upgrade a motherboard". Mind you, I was very calm about it. After three or four minutes of holds and transfers, a person id'ed as a RMA Specialist asked me the same question. I gave the same answer. His respones - "What would it take for you to keep this system"
My answer - a full, retail copy of SE. With a seperate license.

I got it. No more questions asked.

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Time is a great teacher,
but unfortunately it kills all its pupils.

If they buy an ASUS, or ABit motherboard with their PC, then they can get the BIOS encoded to work with their newer system.
If they plan on selling their old PC, then they have to sell the OS with it, and they need to buy a new OS with the newer system.

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***the Beast
- Fate drove me here...then told me to get out of the car...

Way to go Student^2. If more people would complain maybe we can change things. By the way theBeast i have never heard of getting the bios encoded for abit and asus. how does that work.
also, If someone wants the disk to illegaly use it on another computer, my attitude is screw them. if they want to be able to do a clean install, especially without the mandatory additional programs most of these recovery disks include, than they should have that right. what pisses me off is companies that include other software, that cannot be uninstalled.
This topic hits sore spot with me as you can tell. I feel like printing this and showing it to them the next time i hear crap like "Dell would NEVER do something like that, you just don't know what you are doing"

Sorry, it's Gigabyte, not ABit.
Our supplier is authorized by both Asus and Gigabyte to make BIOS locks for those boards. I haven't heard of any other clone systems doing it yet.
I agree with you, and think that a lot of the systems send out a lot of junk with their systems that you can't uninstall easily. These systems, however, only come with Windows preinstalled, and any system-bundled software is left unloaded and up to the customer to install if they want.

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***the Beast
- Fate drove me here...then told me to get out of the car...

Here's their press release on the subject:

As of May 23, some systems manufactured by [manufacturer] will ship without the standard Windows CD. Instead, the Windows operating system file backups will be placed on a special partition on the Hard Drive. This is part of a new Microsoft worldwide policy intiative designed to reduce piracy and improve customer satisfaction.
[Manufacturer] has decided to continue shipping the Operating System files on an external recovery CD manufactured by [manufacturer].

In order to maintain an External Recovery Media, it must be BIOS Locked and OEM branded in order to pass Microsoft requirements. A BIOS Lock is an additional code that is engineered by the OEM (i.e. [manufacturer]) to prevent Microsoft software content on the media from being accessed or used on any computer system, other than the OEM Customer System for which it was intended.


The Recovery CD is only intended for use on the PC system that is manufactured by [Manufacturer] Manufacturing Ltd. and it will not work on other computer systems.

I may be off on this but what is to stop you from putting HDD from a "locked" pc and putting it in a non-bios locked pc... and so on.....and so on. You could just keep recovering to new HDDs. I don't see why this would'nt work.

P.S. If it works and anyone asks my name is Steve Jobs

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--The Internet -- It's not just for porn anymore!!!

I guess that would work... Pirates always have a way of getting around protection. However, the average home user doesn't have the skills to do that. What's to stop someone from taking your kidney out while you're unconcious? Well, for the most part, the average person can't find the kidney easily, and of those that can have a thing called ethics that stop them from doing that.


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***the Beast
- Fate drove me here...then told me to get out of the car...

Interesting. You can buy an OEM windows with the purchase of a mobo, hard drive, or processor(as per Microsoft) but in a major manufacturers computer the definition of "computer" is the mobo. since most major manufacturer computers come with very limited ability to upgrade the processor, if you want to upgrade your mobo or processor you must buy a new windows. If your mobo dies, you must buy it from the original manufacturer or else you have to buy a new windows.
This actually encourages people to use "borrowed" windows.
I wonder where the following situation falls:
Customer bought computer with win98 on recovery disk. wants to upgrade to winME. buys winME upgrade version. Fdisks, Installs winME using a friends win98 disk so he doesn't get crappy install. he has a win98 license, so is this legal?
And all you hear and read about is how MS screwed Netscape, so they were only sold for 5 billion dollars?

Actually, the ME upgrade requires that you have the .CABS available, so when you do a clean install (unlike going from 95 to 98), all you need to do is pop in the recovery CD, and away it goes, and installs a clean copy of ME.

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***the Beast
- Fate drove me here...then told me to get out of the car...

Quote:

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Originally posted by theBeast:
Actually, the ME upgrade requires that you have the .CABS available, so when you do a clean install (unlike going from 95 to 98), all you need to do is pop in the recovery CD, and away it goes, and installs a clean copy of ME.

---

Not always, many of the recovery cd's will not work as a source for an upgrade of winme or wn98. you need to first install the original, then upgrade.

yeah, i'm pretty annoyed myself about the extra software (in all the preload stuff takes about a gig of space before I can even touch the drive) plus the upgrade concerns...i've tried to upgrade before machines that have valid win9x licenses but don't work because the manufactur made thier own install files (the recovery CD i got with my laptop has 2 files. an exe and a huge data file) and of course windows installer doesn't recognise it. augh!!!!

i've said my bit. thanks for letting me vent.

Ummm...this will probaply get me flamed pretty hard, but

The shop I work at already does the bios locked winME installs. On all new boards you have to use a prodram to go into the DMI info on the board and enter the computer manufacturer name in order to get the install cd to run, other wise it just says that you can not install this copy on windows on this machine (or something like that). You can not install our copies of WinME on older machines because they contain no DMI feature (Doh for U). But then again, the user should never have to (according to M$) reinstall his o/S since there is now a recovery feature build into windows. I agree that yes it does suck that you can no longer buy 1 copy and license for an o/s and then go and install it on every one's machine that you know, but hey, thats piracy ain't it? And that is what M$ is trying to stop.

My question to M$ about that stupid "restore" feature is what if the FAT becomes corrupted and one can't boot to the beloved Explorer GUI? What if the "special" partition containing the cabs is affected also? Never need to reload an OS? Never need to format a drive? BULL. As for those who say they have never formatted a drive, well good for them - the time will come https://forums.windrivers.com/

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Paint your old laptop!

Not sure how the law works in the US on this but UK copyright law is very clear on this the end user is legally allowed to make a reasnoble number of copies for backup purposes and may install a single copy on as many machines as they like as long as only the same number of machines as licenses are in use at the same time, and compaines aren't allowed to impeded copying (although they do all the time.

I don't like the Idea of locking any s/w to a single machine waht if it is stolen as long as you still have the license you shouldn't need to do anymore that reinstall

Simon

Quote:

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Originally posted by shawnMt:
My question to M$ about that stupid "restore" feature is what if the FAT becomes corrupted and one can't boot to the beloved Explorer GUI? What if the "special" partition containing the cabs is affected also? Never need to reload an OS? Never need to format a drive? BULL. As for those who say they have never formatted a drive, well good for them - the time will come https://forums.windrivers.com/

---

We have several pc's that we sold to one customoer that came with WIN2K Professional on them. The drives in the system came partitioned. They have windows installed on the first partition, the second partition (10% of total drive space) has the files to re-install WIN2K.

Well, needless to say we were pissed! First of all, we have to explain to our customers that yes they did order a 20GB HD, but you can only use 18 of it???.....Secondly, what if the drive goes belly up?....or that second partition magically gets damaged?

Our vendor's answer, we will re-load the setup files on the replacement HD before we ship it to you.....That's fine, but what about in 4 years when it's out of warranty and the drive dies again??....I'm taking it I can ship the replacement drive to them? Or does there copy of Windows die with the 3 year warranties end???.....I don't understand this at all!!


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WHERE DO YOU WANT TO GO TODAY?......Not that it matters, because Micrsoft will crash on the way there!!!

Another thing that burns me, a lot of these pre-built systems are coming with the stickers for Certificate of Authenticity instead of the regular license. I think this is actually a good idea because it helps keep the user from losing it, but why do they put it on the back of the system??

That's a great place....I don't know how many people have called half way through a re-install of Windows looking for it, and when we tell them it is on the back of the machine, they get pissed because the computer's in a desk or somewhere else where you can't pull it out w/o shutting down !!

WTF were they thinking putting it on the BACK of the machine?

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WHERE DO YOU WANT TO GO TODAY?......Not that it matters, because Micrsoft will crash on the way there!!!

My friend who is computer technician at one of the LARGEST computer related companies in the Northeast USA bought one of the NEW windows with the little sticker on the shrink wrap. You know the kind you are supposed to peel off and stick on the machine? Only it was on the shrink wrap, which he threw away. Just in case you are laughing if one of my customers hadn't seen it I would have thrown one away too. I wonder how many people threw it away, and in the middle of an upgrade or install were rooting around in the garbage?

Micro$oft are bang out of order on this one. As far as I'm aware, you are buying a license to install Windows on one machine. It does not state which machine nor does it state that you cannot remove the installation of windows from one machine and install it on another.

I have replaced my PC with a new model, and used my exsisting copy (legal) of Win98 to install. The old machine was sold without an operating system, and this was clearley marked on the recipt. The person I sold it to installed Win98 themselves, I don't know if their copy was legal, and I don't really care.

I would suggest if you do this, to mark on a invoice that the machine was sold without a operating system (and get the buyer to sign it) It pays to cover your back!

With the new BIOS locked disks I could not do this, which is braking my rights.

Just another unjustice from Micro$oft. Gates is already the richest man in the world, and M$ bypass's most corporations in their revenue, and yet they have only been around (in comparison) a short time. It is simply a ripoff.

What would happen if a car manufacturer decided that you could not resell "their" car after a couple of years unless the driver of the car (you) came with it? Or that the ignition key has a special encoding that is only available through the manufacturer for $200. I can see it now:

CARSALES GUY: Here is your car sir!
CUSTOMER: Great!! Hey where is the key?
CARSALES GUY: Oh! You want a key with that?
CUSTOMER: Yea!?!?!
CARSALES GUY: Well, that is an extra $200.

Apply the M$ tactics to other situations in your life and you will see .......


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Need a website? We can help!
protechpc.com

When you buy a new PC from most OEMs you are not the one licensing the version of Windows that ships on the PC. Your OEM licenses that copy of Windows for use on that specific PC for you. The Gartner Group has had a number of articles about this because of Microsoft forbidding businesses without a Select or Enterprise License to ghost new PCs with a company image. You can not legally ghost a PC that ships for example with Windows 2000 w/ a company image containing another copy of Windows 2000 unless the OEM license agreement clearly states the license included with the PC is tranferable. To restate the point, the license for Windows on an OEM PC is not your license but a license that permits the OEM to use the copy of Windows that shipped with that PC on that PC.

James Ballon

Quote:

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Originally posted by protechpc:
I can see it now:

CARSALES GUY: Here is your car sir!
CUSTOMER: Great!! Hey where is the key?
CARSALES GUY: Oh! You want a key with that?
CUSTOMER: Yea!?!?!
CARSALES GUY: Well, that is an extra $200.

Apply the M$ tactics to other situations in your life and you will see .......

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Hooray for Linux!!!!!

first, i would hang up on her: she was looking for a reasn to bring it back.
second - i would give her the number to microsoft's tech support, or the pc manufacturer, in other words, dont dam the river, just re-direct it.

I understand the whole privacy deal but I can't stand those recovery cd's. I have so many friends that unknowingly buy one of those mainstream systems and find out later that it's almost impossible for them (average users) to upgrade their hardware. If they change anything major (videocard, soundcard, modem, etc..), they have to save the old crap in case they need to reload windows. Plus, with the locked bios, you can't get rid of the stupid splsh screens and you can't tweak your system.
I have noticed that a few companies at least seperate their OS recovery cd and their software cd so that you don't have to deal with all the junk. Thank goodness for small miracles!

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Why won't this protection guy leave me alone? And who made him a General anyway?!?

Agreed, restore CD's suck. But is a person within the law to use a friend's full version or upgrade CD with your own registration #'s to avoid the OEM software trash?

Well if it goes out of a SHOP It needs to go out with a copy of the OS.. Pre Load or Whatever.. If used system. It still needs it. If you got it ( Purchase of used equipment ) with it great. If not provide it with it as sale price. John

2 machines and 4 more beers, dos it really matter we still win anyway.. We get Paid for Ingorance, Stupidy, Bad hardware they tried to install... WE Always WIN... John

Not sure if anyone posted this info, but the new Compaqs, the 5000 series and above, all ship with recovery CDs that aren't recovery cds at all. They're merely Floppy images on bootable CD that basically activates the restore partition plainly located on drive "D". So, if Jr. or Ms. Shmukenfuss decide to delete ANY files on the "D" (We know those customers that delete ANYTHING because they're so paranoid about HD shrinkage), then the HD can never be recovered...unless you send it to Compaq for a hefty restore charge. CHA$$CHING!
You heard right folks! Restore on a partition of the HD you're paying for, so when the HD sticker says 15gig, they're actually going to get 11.5 gig useable. The 1.44meg size CD that is shipped looks for a valid restore partition. So, if the HD goes south or you get a boot virus, you're already gonna kiss it. You have NO hard copy of a restore, yet alone Windows98 or even drivers hidden in the CD (like before - hidden zips).
This goes for the new 1700 Compaq lappies too... and if ANYTHING is out of order on the D, say G'bye.
Now, I don't wanna get on a rant here, but the basic reason is this - Most of the computer buying public is as uneducated as a 6 year old, and don't check this out or care. Keep putting the prizes in the box, they'll eat the meat even if it's dog.
It's an outrage, but... Hey, does anyone realize you can register as MS OEM and buy hard copies of 98 with licence for under $60/ea?? The original poster should look into this if he's selling white-boxes. That's what's so cool about buying a non-brand name!

Of course that's my opinion, I could be wrong. - D. Miller.

-Sckott

Cut and dry you have to buy a retail version of any software to do what you feel with it ... look at the modems in those OEM systems most have crap, you have to buy a decent one to get the real power out .. i know some people will say mine works great ok nice but most still are junk ...
so as far as anything you might as well buy the real thing and make a cd of your drivers (video, sound, etc..) so then if you want to upgrade or drop all the preloaded software you will be able to ..

but then leads to the question where do you find those drivers ...
simple answer **** Windrivers ***

Hey Guys,

I've not posted here before, but I wnated to offer my strategy on how to deal with customers griping about the lack of a W98 CD. My response is usually that Compaq/IBM/HP does it this way to make it easier for the customer. Quote "In the event you have a system crash, or an irrecoverable virus attack, you can simply put in the recovery CD and let the system resotre itself to it's condition the day you bought it. If you had only a W98 cd, you would have to restore the OS, then manually install all the drivers for your devices like the video card, sound card, network card, etc., as Windows does not always pick up those devices. What the recovery CD is, in fact, is your liscenced copy of W98, all device driver files and all of your applications that came with the computer on one convenient, self-executing CD. You are, however, responsible to back up all of your important files, addresses and programs."

That usually shuts them up.

Darren.

I think its bull. If I buy a system with one licensee to an op system I should be permitted to transfer this to a newer PC when the time comes, and not have to pay for an additional copy. If Microsloth wants to minimize piracy maybe they should reevaluate how their Bloatware is priced.

And the penguin shall set you free.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by theBeast:
Here's their press release on the subject:

As of May 23, some systems manufactured by [manufacturer] will ship without the standard Windows CD. Instead, the Windows operating system file backups will be placed on a special partition on the Hard Drive. This is part of a new Microsoft worldwide policy intiative designed to reduce piracy and improve customer satisfaction.
[Manufacturer] has decided to continue shipping the Operating System files on an external recovery CD manufactured by [manufacturer].

---

I worked tech support for one of those companies. We used Drive Image SE (DISE) to store the backup. The HDD was split up (you ordered a 20 gig, you'd get a 15 gig with a 5 gig backup) We got a few complaints about it, but mostly people calling asking where it is. We'd find out they either repartitioned the drive or deleted the backup files (bad move). We'd have to tell them that they were S.O.L.

The worst is when some peopletried to run the backup, it would give a "cannot unlock a locked drive' error.

When dise runs, it quickly repartitions the primary DOS partition, and sometimes it'll give you that error message after it deletes that partition, but didn't re-create it yet. So, then people think they're smart, and reboot, then do the notorious format C: (since there is no pri dos partition, giess what the C drive was!).

Several of our techs did that accidently, also..

I like the recovery CD better than this option, but this way was cheaper for our company to do (yes, they were about as cheap as you could get!)



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Where are we going and why are we in this handbasket?