F1, Ferrari and THAT Decision

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May 14th, 2002, 03:46 AM
Papa Smurf

F1, Ferrari and THAT Decision

What should happen to Ferrari for imposing team orders?

Fined?

Docked points?

Thrown out of title?

Nothing?

I personally think the FIA (F1 ruling body) wont do anything about it as it Ferrari that is involved in this.
What I would really like to see is the FIA do something about this it has really brought the whole sport into disrepute.

What are your thoughts on this?

Cheers
PapaSmurf
May 14th, 2002, 04:50 AM
NooNoo

I think it stinks

There was absolutely no need for Michael to have that race, he went in well ahead on points, it would not have affected the team championship in any way. They just saw an opportunity for Michael to put points in the bank so he could screw up later.

Score -100 points for public relations Jean Todd. It could ruin Michaels championship PR in that if for any reason he ends up only 3 points ahead, many people will be thinking if it wasn't for Barrichello obeying the tug of the leash, Michael would not be world champion.

Team orders should only apply when its coming down to the wire. It was unsporting, unseemly and I hope that the FIA review the regulations in the light of this travesty.
May 14th, 2002, 05:30 AM
AlienDyne

First things first.
I don't think that this incident had something to do with M. Schumacher, R. Barrichello or J. Todd. This was a direct order from the above to the three of them. J. Todd just transformed the order to both of them. Since this is Ferrari's policy they had to follow it. Rubens should let Michael overtake him and that's what he did. Yes, this sucks but nobody can do anything about it since there's no relevant rule for this situation.
And yes. It sucks!
I've been a F1 fun since the early 80's and when I see similar incidents I always get mad. Although Ferrari is my favourite team and Michael my favourite drives, this truly hurts me.
What he did and I'm talking about giving Rubens his trophy didn't change anything. Let's just hope it won't happens again. Nobody wants a champion that way.
May 14th, 2002, 06:03 AM
Mayhem

Team orders in F1 has been around since F1 began. Sorry, it's just part of the sport. Mario Andretti would have never won his world championship if it weren't for team orders. Ronnie Peterson was was a better driver, but he was also a team player. Jody Schekter would not have won his Championship if not for team orders. Gilles Villeneueve was a far better driver than he and Schekter would tell you as much today. I could probably name a half dozen others in that same boat.

FIA will do nothing about the finishing order at Austria. And that is because no rules were broken. What Ferrari did was completely legal, completely within the rules.

I don't like it either. Niether did Schumacher for that matter. And that was obvious. I have watched the tape of that race, the end in particular several times now and I can tell you this: Michael Schumacher made an attempt to buck the orders. If you look closely you can tell that Barichello had to practicly slam on the brakes just before the finish line. Schumacher was following closely but was making no real effort to go around and did so in the end ONLY because if he didn't they both would have wound up at a dead stop before the finish line.

Schumacher enjoys every single win and he shows it. But not at Austria, the only race onthe circuit he has never won. After taking the flag Michael gave a quick wave and that was it. He was not at all happy with the situation. He made Rubens stand on the top spot on the podium, he gave Rubens the trophy, right there on world broadcast tv.

Understand, I am a HUGE Ferrari fan, Have beeen since the days of Nikki Lauda and Clay Reggazoni. I like to see my team win, on any day. One way or another Ferrari had that race won, a 1-2 victory as sure as anything could be. But there is another thing to consider. The World Championship Points. I have no doubt that, barring an act of God, Michael Schumacher will win his fifth world championship this year. But I also remember not long ago a time when Schumacher had a commanding lead in the championship and an accident at Silverstone put him out for the season with a broken leg. I remember 1982 when Villeneueve and Pironi had the top spots sewed up, no one could catch them. Until Villeneueve crash at Zolder and died. two races later Pironi crashed and his legs were crushed so badly that he never raced a car again. It happens in racing.

I don't like it any more than anyone else but the facts remain. What Ferrari did was within the rules, perfectly legal. What Ferrari did has been done before. And while some teams like McLaren and Williams claim they have no team orders, I have seen them both issue team orders when the championship was on the line.
May 14th, 2002, 06:32 AM
MacGyver

Ordinarilly, I would agree with the above, but has anyone considered the impact this could have on people who bet on the races?
May 14th, 2002, 06:40 AM
Mayhem

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by MacGyver:
Ordinarilly, I would agree with the above, but has anyone considered the impact this could have on people who bet on the races?<hr /></blockquote>Anyone betting on F1 should know the rules and know that there are team orders.
May 14th, 2002, 06:44 AM
NooNoo

I agree that team orders are legal and with every word you said Mayhem, but it still sucks. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" />
May 14th, 2002, 07:14 AM
AlienDyne

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by NooNoo:
I agree that team orders are legal and with every word you said Mayhem, but it still sucks. :(<hr /></blockquote>Who said it doesn't? :( <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" />
May 14th, 2002, 08:11 AM
EvilCabbage

I was disgusted. Thats about all I have to say.
May 14th, 2002, 01:29 PM
Garfield99

dont expect to much from the FIA when they finally meet, there all in hospital at the mo having wooden splinters removed from there butts cus of sitting on the fence for so long
May 15th, 2002, 04:11 AM
Outcoded

At the end of the day, F1, like supercross or football is a team sport, you don't hear complaints when one striker sets a goal up for another one do you?

Got to admit, Schmacher letting Rubens stand on the top of the podium isn't right though, if he was going to do that, he should have given him the points as well.
May 15th, 2002, 03:31 PM
Mayhem

Check <a href="http://www.speedvision.com/auto/?lvl=3a&cat=27&id=1465" target="_blank">This</a> out.

From a man who knows how things stand.
May 15th, 2002, 03:56 PM
korpse

F1 sucks! WRC is where its at!!! :D :D
May 15th, 2002, 05:14 PM
Lycia

I very loosly follow F1. I was a fan of Mario Andretti when he had a jet black Lotus and later I started watching Michael A.. But for a few years I've not really watched any racing.

But this sounds like cycling.

Take the 1985 Tour de France. Greg Lemond is clearly stronger than Team Leader Bernard Hinault. But team rules, whether official or not, dictate that if you are a domestique, or support rider, you always defer to your team leader. I believe in 1985 on Alp d'huez, Greg could have taken off after noticing that everyone, including Hinault were suffering. This likely would have been his first Tour win. But Cyrille Guimard, the Director Sportif(Manager) told Greg to sit back and wait for Hinault. Which Greg did. Hinault finished the stage and won the tour that year. If Greg had not sit back he would have been heavily critisized in the peleton. As a matter of fact, Hinault, realizing that Greg was much stronger than him, promised to race the '96 tour as support for Greg. As the '96 Tour progressed Hinault reneged on his promise and tried to win. Greg responded and did in fact win the tour with Hinault finally supporting him, but at the expense of both of them almost losing to Laurent Finogn.

Is this a good anaolgy of what happened? Or can some one tell me what did happen..

Thanks Mayhem, I read that link. Almost exactly what happened as above.

I think Ferrari did what it had to do. I don't think they should be fined. Of course I don't know the rules of F1, but wouldn't it be within their, Ferrari's right, to dictate who they want to win if it's possible one of or more of their drivers is in the position to win?

I know this stuff happnes all the time, in motorsports, in cycling. The only difference is that it was poorly done. The article says that if the driver had just slowed the last few laps and did a gradual back off, instead of nearly cuasing a collision, no one would have said anything. He's right.
May 15th, 2002, 05:26 PM
Lycia

On the speedvision link to the right is a poll. The last choice is "Michael will win the championship anyway, let Rubens have a break"

That would have been nice...but "Team orders have been around since Henry Ford, what's the big deal?"
May 15th, 2002, 09:59 PM
Mayhem

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Lycia:
On the speedvision link to the right is a poll. The last choice is "Michael will win the championship anyway, let Rubens have a break"

That would have been nice...but "Team orders have been around since Henry Ford, what's the big deal?"<hr /></blockquote>My sentiments exactly. Michael could have done his normal jubilant victory lap but he didn't. He could have stood tall on the top of the podium but he didn't. He could have kept the trophy for himself but he didn't. Instead He gave a quick wave, stood down and pushed Barrichello onto the top of the podium. Micheal was handed the winners cup and immediately handed it to Rubens.

He behaved this way because he knew just like everyone else that Rubens Barichello won that race fair and square. So he gave him what he could. He cannot give the point to rubens even if he wanted to. that is not up to him, and it is part of the sport.

Rubens could have just as easily stayed on the gas and beaten Schumacher to the line, but he didn't. He didn't because he knows his place on the team. and he knows that his time will come with that team.

BTW those orders came down straight from Luca De Montezemelo President of Ferrari and the former director of motorsports for that same company. He knows how to win, he knows how to win championships. And he will ensure that Michael wins a fifth. Because that is history in the making. And THAT is Ferrari.
May 15th, 2002, 10:04 PM
Mayhem

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Lycia:
The article says that if the driver had just slowed the last few laps and did a gradual back off, instead of nearly cuasing a collision, no one would have said anything. He's right.<hr /></blockquote>I have doubts that the decision had been made untill the last lap. Ferrari's normal MO would have Rubens follow Micheal the entire race. instead of leading to begin with. It was a last Minute decision from Luca De Montezemelo that gave Schumacherthe win.
May 16th, 2002, 11:23 AM
Lycia

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by *MAYHEM*:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Lycia:
The article says that if the driver had just slowed the last few laps and did a gradual back off, instead of nearly cuasing a collision, no one would have said anything. He's right.<hr /></blockquote>I have doubts that the decision had been made untill the last lap. Ferrari's normal MO would have Rubens follow Micheal the entire race. instead of leading to begin with. It was a last Minute decision from Luca De Montezemelo that gave Schumacherthe win.<hr /></blockquote>ahh, I see your point. As I said I don't really follow F1 racing anymore..but this caught my eye.
May 17th, 2002, 05:27 AM
Outcoded

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by korpse:
F1 sucks! WRC is where its at!!! :D :D <hr /></blockquote>Think you mean World Superbikes. :D :D :D