opinions please

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June 24th, 2002, 06:06 PM
Sandman72

opinions please

I was catching up on some news and a thought occured to me. I consider myself somewhat educated. I also feel I have a fair grasp of history and American politics. However, I can not come up a reason as to why the U.S. is such a staunch supporter of Israel. It seems the U.S. does not even publicly, strongly disagree with Israel's actions where the situtation merits it. What exactly does Israel do for the U.S.? Why should the average joe care about what goes on there? Why are American politicians so hot to flaunt the cause of Israel? I don't mean to stir up a fight with these questions. I am simply looking for some enlightenment on this subject. thanks
June 24th, 2002, 06:19 PM
ilovetheusers

There are a few reasons:

A large group of voters in the USA are of Jewish background and they consider the country to be their holy land. Also, they vote.

Second, it is nice to have an ally right next to the world’s most valuable resource - Oil. If the poop hits the fan it's nice to have at least 1 power in the region that does not hate us.

Politicians are not flaunting Israel - the president is. All presidents would love to go down in the history books as the person who brought peace to the Middle East. Also, it is our interest to keep the region stable to keep oil flowing and gas prices down. No oil or high oil prices means bad economy. So, yes we should all care, especially if you work or drive or breathe.

Finally, you ask why we should support them. I would ask why not? They are subjected to terrorist attacks on a continual basis, have been invaded a couple times by its neighbors and I for one feel they show massive restraint in the face of all of this violence against them. We do not strongly condemn them for everything they may do that is bad/wrong because whatever they do has been done to them 10 times over.

If you really want a decent opinion of what is going on the Middle East ask Gabriel – He lives there and his opinions seem fairly objective.
June 24th, 2002, 07:55 PM
Sandman72

Thank you, ilovetheusers, first of all for an honest and intelligent reply! I don't quite see how they have anything but an adverse effect on our oil supply. We get criticised, by mideast nations, for being so devout to Israel. I agree with you on the point about the voter base. It also seems to come down to MONEY. Maybe thats why our politicians are so devoted. The people that contribute large amounts to national parties and PACS may by large be jewish. If that is true, I am more disappointed that attitudes towards other countries is not decided by whats best for the country but by what is best for the politicians pocket books. I am not idealistic enough to think this doesn't happen. I can however still be saddend that it does happen.
June 24th, 2002, 08:27 PM
geeksRus

Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East. And they aren't trying to kill us. They are a good ally to have in that area.
June 24th, 2002, 08:59 PM
imaeditedbysowulo

Intelligence. They are our #1 source for information, and that's not likely to change anytime soon. Without our protection they would end up bowing to Saddam, without their intelligence we would be....hmmmm, more ignorant perhaps?
June 24th, 2002, 09:04 PM
KINGofBLEH

US support for Israel is a direct offshoot of the Cold War. Going back to WWII, Israel was granted statehood because they had England by the short-hairs. The Jewish expatriates in England and the US helped financed much of the Allied war effort with the reluctance promise that they could claim Palestine as their homeland after the war. England was decimated by the 3rd Riech. Churchill decided that Palestine was not worth defending since it did not contain any oil or other valuable resource. They allowed the UN to create and Israeli state. Immediately, the entire Arab world declared war on Israel and tried to drive them into the sea.

Israel kicked butt in the 1948 war and took over the West Bank. Israel took even more territory in the 1967 Six Day War when they took the Golan Heights and Sinai Peninsula. This threw the balance of power in the middle east in favor of Israel. During this time the Soviet Union had been actively courting alliances with many middle eastern nations (Iraq, Egypt, Libya, Syria, etc). They even funded the building of the massive Aswan Dam in Egypt despite strong objections by the US. Fearful that the Soviet Union might get a stronghold in the middle east, the US began dumping millions or dollars of military aid and equipment into Israel.

When Israel lost the Golan Heights and Sinai Peninsula in the 1973 Yom Kippur war, they looked extremely vulnerable for the first time --- a prime target for Soviet expansion. The US stepped in again and helped Israel by training their troops, sharing intelligence, etc. By the middle 70's radical pro-Muslim and pro-Arab groups began to show hatred for the US financial support by sponsoring terrorist acts like the 1972 Olympics in Munich and the taking of American hostages in Iran in 1979-80. It became clear that Arab resentment of Isreal had grown beyond control and the US was now locked into permanent ties with Israel. If they were to back out at that point, Israel would be crushed and the Soviets would have the upper hand in the middle east. The expansion of Communism into Southeast Asia following the Vietnam War put even more pressure on the US to maintain the balance of power in the middle east.

This trend continued during the US-Soviet arms race during the 1980's during that time, the US was secretly placing nuclear weapons and technology into the hands of the Israelis. Now in the area of international politics, when a country acquires nuclear capabilities, it is like becoming a "made guy" in the mafia. Once you have nukes, you are a real player. By that time the Soviet Union and Eastern Block were imploding and Arab countries were forced to look for new friends. Iran began getting missles from China. Iraq used US money and technology during the Iran-Iraq war to develop its nuclear and biological weapon programs. Continuing US support for Israel seemed to be the only logical way to controlling the politcal chaos in the middle east created by the collapse of the Soviet Union.

Desert Storm added fuel to the fire when Saddam began launching Soviet-made SCUDs at Israel. Iraq's economy and military were effectively destroyed and the largest military in the middle east was reduced to a whimper. Clinton attempted to introduce a little balance by allowing Israel and Arafat to come together for peace talks. Although these talks were generally ineffective, they demonstrated a slight shift in US policy toward Israel in that we were no longer the staunchly pro-Israel ally that we were 10 years before. Bush has basically continued with the Clinton approach.
June 25th, 2002, 06:49 AM
ilovetheusers

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by KINGofBLEH:
US support for Israel is a direct offshoot of the Cold War. Going back to WWII, Israel was granted statehood because they had England by the short-hairs. The Jewish expatriates in England and the US helped financed much of the Allied war effort with the reluctance promise that they could claim Palestine as their homeland after the war. England was decimated by the 3rd Riech. Churchill decided that Palestine was not worth defending since it did not contain any oil or other valuable resource. They allowed the UN to create and Israeli state. Immediately, the entire Arab world declared war on Israel and tried to drive them into the sea.<hr /></blockquote>I don’t think that Palestine had been a state for some time – and Israel actually fought a war against the British to get their land liberated (land that they were given and had bought). Apart from that this is an awesome recapping of Israel’s history. I forgot about all of the past with nuclear arms, the cold war and whatnot.

I also agree with geeksRus – the fact that this is the only democratic state in the Mid East is a big factor – we tend to support those around the world that have similar viewpoints, though they usually have to have something in our interest.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Sandman72
Thank you, ilovetheusers, first of all for an honest and intelligent reply! I don't quite see how they have anything but an adverse effect on our oil supply. We get criticised, by mideast nations, for being so devout to Israel. I agree with you on the point about the voter base. It also seems to come down to MONEY. Maybe thats why our politicians are so devoted. The people that contribute large amounts to national parties and PACS may by large be jewish. If that is true, I am more disappointed that attitudes towards other countries is not decided by whats best for the country but by what is best for the politicians pocket books. I am not idealistic enough to think this doesn't happen. I can however still be saddend that it does happen.<hr /></blockquote>I just listen to talk radio and avoid televised media in order to get an accurate portrayal of the matter.

We do get criticized by the rest of the folks in the Middle East for our support but it is because of an institutionalized racism against the Jewish people from the governments/religious leaders of those countries. All of this hatred against them is asinine but spouts from fanatical religion that is used by governments to push an anti Jewish agenda against the largest power base in the region.

Remember that politicians care about few things – money and votes being the biggest concerns. Giving to one group or another gets you votes. Don’t think for once that most of the things that politicians do are heart felt or from good intentions. This is the way all of the world works, always has been – humans suck (sorry to be so blunt).
June 25th, 2002, 06:53 AM
ilovetheusers

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by imaeditedbysowulo:
Intelligence. They are our #1 source for information, and that's not likely to change anytime soon. Without our protection they would end up bowing to Saddam, without their intelligence we would be....hmmmm, more ignorant perhaps?<hr /></blockquote>I forgot about this. We don't have an effective way of gathering inteligence in the area and do need to rely on them (from what I understand - not that I know or anything). Since the region is somewhat unstable and provides most of the worlds oil and out economy is dependant upon a world economy, we need to keep close tabs upon those countries.
June 25th, 2002, 09:31 AM
egypshn

Hello All,
I was invited to this discussion by a friend of mine who I have frequent conversations with regarding this subject.

Basically what it boils down to is that "Americans" will never see the Middle East as I see it. My parents immigrated to America from Egypt in the late 60's and I was born here. I have traveled to the Middle East several times.

Why do they hate America? Well, when thay see bombs being dropped from Israeli aircraft with a stamp labeled U.S.A. on it, what do you expect????

When it comes to taking sides, the picture is clear as far as CNN (which is run by Jews) and the rest of the media (also run by Jews) are concerned, Israel is simply a victim to Middle Eastern violence. There was a comment by another participant in this forum stating that what the Israelis are doing has been done to them 10 times over. The reason for that statement is that the media will never show the Palestinian point of view unless it benefits the Israelis. OK, twice a month, a suicide bomber suits up and decides to take out 5, 10, 15 or 20 people and the pictures of the destroyed busses and coffee shops are aired across every media type for that day. When was the last time you saw pictures of the buildings (not busses) that were destroyed filled with hundreds (not 10's) of Palestinians who are poor to begin with. Tanks vs. Rocks....Guns vs. Sticks....Army vs. Civilians... C'mon guys!!!!! For every Israeli that dies, 10 Palestinians die. Not to mention the thousands that are now homeless and would probably rather be dead.

As far as why America supports Israel.......$$$$$$. That's it. The guy who mentioned votes could not be more right, the Jews have a system of sticking together, and doing things as one and they have perfected this system. Politicians realize this....once the decision is made to vote for one particular politician, you can count on the entire Jewish community to make that same vote.

Wars????? Israel has never fought alone...6 day war? OK?! Take the French air force, have them bomb all of the military targets in the proposed areas and then have the Isreali ground troops invade and act like they did something. Are we really that gullible to think that a bunch of ground troops just walked into 4 or 5 well equipped countries and just kicked *** . Whatever!

My views are not meant to offend anyone however, it is somewhat frustrating when you continue to hear totally biased opinions taken from the sh*t that the media is delivering. I wish all of you could take a trip to Palestine for a day to see the truth for yourselves. Isreal has violated every law ever created regarding war. Geneva Convention? Why is it not enforced in this case. Ambulances being turned away, citizens being denied medical attention, civilian occupied areas being blown to shreds. Yeah you can say "the suicide bombers are killing civilians also" but the actions of those people are not condoned nor encouraged by the government, they are members of an unorganized group doing their own thing.

Well, I have a lot more to say but I would like to keep your attention with hopes of intelligent, civilized replies. For the record, I am not Anti-America, I am not a flag-burner and I am not a suicide bomber, I love this country but my opinions in this matter are for very good reason and Fair is Fair.
June 25th, 2002, 09:45 AM
Cleetus

My question on the topic would have to be towards the palestenians. Is it not true that they have never been a true nationality? Is it not true that while all the middle eastern countries are suppossedly backing them now, that they have been kicked out of every other surrounding middle eastern country, rather brutally as well? If the Isrealies are so bad, why have the Palestenians not accepted any of the peace accords handed to them?

Of course, I don't see why so many people are fighting over a desert anyway.
June 25th, 2002, 10:14 AM
egypshn

El Presidente, I am not sure where you retreived your information from. When you say they were kicked out of other countries, I am not following you. Do you think they (as Palestinians) packed their bags and traveled from country to country asking for residency? nope! And for the record, they ARE a recognized nationality throughout the world.

As far as peace plans, what do you know about details? Israel also declined several peace plans negotiated by Palestine. Each plan obviousely benefits the side creating it.

Your comment on fighting over desert says a lot, ill bet you are clueless as to why they are even fighting, I also wonder if you even know where Palestine is??????????
June 25th, 2002, 10:31 AM
Cleetus

Actually please tell me where Palestine is/was exactly. Before the two world wars, the whole area was known as the Ottoman empire, in fact for the last several thousand years the whole area has been under control of one empire or another. Yes there have been clans and tribes and states, but always under control of a central form of government.

Yes, I do know they are fighting over more than a desert. It is smack dab in the middle of the birth place of three of the most prominent religions on earth. I do know that the Muslims are not to fond of the jews, and taking from your first post, you are not either.

I do know that the palestenians were kicked out of Syria and Jordan, even after they were given a chance to stay and live with those already over there, but instead chose to be a-holes.

I do recognize that this problem is similar in several ways to the problems in the Balkan nations. Being always run by an empire or another outside force. After WW1 and 2, nations were formed and imperialism was seen for what it had done. The nations were all thrown together, then suddenly these people had to decide how to live on their own rule with others. It was something they had never fully done. To this day we are still living with the repurcusions of the past.

I stated that peace accords were given to the Palestenians by Isreal. It was more than any one had ever offered. They turned it down and continue with suicide bombings. For that, I have no sympathy with or for them. Here in America we are suppossed to be at WAR WITH TERRORISM. Suicide bombings in buses or malls is terrorism, we should be at war with these people if we are to follow what Dubya said.
June 25th, 2002, 10:52 AM
Stalemate

Excellent rundown by KINGofBLEH!

There is no question in my mind that the "traditional" media never shows all sides of an issue with an unbiased perspective. This also applies to the current trend of being less and less vocal about Isreal's very real and daily war on terrorism.

Having said that, it is my opinion that each side in this conflict doesn't have the full story either. It is impossible for them to be objective about this - no effense meant.

My own stance on this is simply that if Israel no longer has a democratic "superpower" ally, they're dead. Period. It may not be the goal of all muslims in the area, but there are enough extremists out there who want nothing less than the total destruction of the country of Israel and the annihilation of its people. I'm not convinced that the efforts of these "genocide-mongers" would be effectively thwarted by their neighbours. Just look at the excellent job Arafat is doing trying to control/stop the current wave of terrorist attacks upon Isreal.

Israel is vastly outnumbered as it is and is skating on the thin ice of having the US in its camp and some nukes to threaten their ennemies with.

There is a question of money/oil invloved, as there is one of protecting other democratic countries. I'm not debating that the oil aspect is very important here. I just don't want to see propaganda become the media norm, just because Israel is trying to defend its people.
June 25th, 2002, 11:03 AM
kingtbone

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by egypshn:
Why do they hate America? Well, when thay see bombs being dropped from Israeli aircraft with a stamp labeled U.S.A. on it, what do you expect????

When it comes to taking sides, the picture is clear as far as CNN (which is run by Jews) and the rest of the media (also run by Jews) are concerned, Israel is simply a victim to Middle Eastern violence. When was the last time you saw pictures of the buildings (not busses) that were destroyed filled with hundreds (not 10's) of Palestinians who are poor to begin with. Tanks vs. Rocks....Guns vs. Sticks....Army vs. Civilians... C'mon guys!!!!! For every Israeli that dies, 10 Palestinians die. Not to mention the thousands that are now homeless and would probably rather be dead.
<hr /></blockquote>I have to agree with Egypshn on this matter. Unfortunately for us the only perspective we can normally get is from CNN, or other major media outlets. This perspective is heavily skewed towards the Israeli side of things.

I think it would be a severe eye-opener to look at the death tolls of Palestinians compared to Israelis. It may be surprising for many.

I find it hard to beleive an American, of all people, would find a way to criticize the Palestinians who are fighting for their own homeland. Isn't this similar to what happened to America when it fought for independance against Britain? The number of Palentinians that have been displaced from their homes is staggering. Wouldn't you do anything necessary to keep your people from being killed and being deported? That's the fundamental principle that the USA was built on, freedom.

I'm not saying if the situation were reversed, that the Palestinians, or the Israelis would be any better, but to blame one party is lidicrous. Both factions are to blame, and the entire backing of Israel is %100 political, and not a spec more.

In summary, I think we have to blame the media for the way the general public perceives this long conflict.
June 25th, 2002, 12:22 PM
egypshn

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Kingof Bleh: My own stance on this is simply that if Israel no longer has a democratic "superpower" ally, they're dead. Period. It may not be the goal of all muslims in the area, but there are enough extremists out there who want nothing less than the total destruction of the country of Israel and the annihilation of its people. I'm not convinced that the efforts of these "genocide-mongers" would be effectively thwarted by their neighbours. Just look at the excellent job Arafat is doing trying to control/stop the current wave of terrorist attacks upon Isreal.

<hr /></blockquote>C'mon, how do you expect Arafat to stop suicide bombers from bombing another country when Bush can't even stop U.S. citizens from bombing the U.S. You think if their was pressure from the government to stop bombings in the U.S., McVeigh wouldn't have done it. These suicide bombers are involved in a group completely seperated from the government and frankly don't give a sh*t what the government says or wants. Israel is using the suicide bombers as a scapegoat for destroying Palestine and are fully aware that Arafat has nothing to do with it.

Let's say that Israel would be dead if the U.S. didn't intervene. So what, technically Israel has nothing to do with the oil and as far as intelligence is concerned, their not doing a very good job if they can't even protect their own country from bombs. Now, if Kuwait or Saudi Arabia had a problem , then the U.S. would have something to worry about because THAT'S where the oil is. Instead of protecting them, we attack them. Bush is talking about taking over Saddam Hussein because he is voilating rules that stated the U.S. has the authority to inspect the country for weaponry, when Sharon violates laws of the Geneva Convention...it's ok because he's a Jew....When Hussein voilates the laws of NATO....we need to take him over.

The double standard is black and white, I am just so surprised more people don't see it.
June 25th, 2002, 12:37 PM
Cleetus

Wow, there is no way I can really answer that last one without turning it into a flame. I have sat here and tried for a while. I will just sit here and say I completely and totally disagree.
June 25th, 2002, 01:02 PM
kingtbone

Yeah I'm not even sure I understand that post to be honest. The seconds paragraph throws me off. You wanna clear that one up a bit egypshn?
June 25th, 2002, 01:40 PM
egypshn

Well, the jist of the paragraph was that the Middle East is treated unfairly. When theirs controversy involving an Arab country, it turns into a worldwide event revolving around religion and terrorism.

Things that the U.S expects from Middle Eastern countries aren't even practiced here. When was the last time someone tried to overthrow Bush because of the actions of some anti-U.S. government cult (which we have all seen before). Why are their talks of overthrowing Arafat due to the actions of an outside group. Hamas (which is the group behind most of the Israeli bombings) isn't even a Palestinian organization, thay're a mixture of people from all over the Middle East. There are talks of attacking Saddam Hussein because he is violating Rules of NATO. Do you see the double standard.....talks of attacking Saddam Hussein for rules of NATO while at the same time Sharon is violating Geneva Convention rules....but we conveniently forgot about Sharon and the destruction he cause in Palestine. My point is that the U.S. and Israel need to stop looking for reasons to take control of the region and see their actions for what they are.

I read my last post and I apologize if it was a little confusing, I guess I was thinking a little faster than I was typing. Read it over, it may make more sense the second time around.
June 25th, 2002, 01:58 PM
Sandman72

What "rules of nato" would you be speaking of. Iraq isn't a member of nato. I think you are talking about the cease fire agreements. Agreements that Iraq signed and agreed to allow. Geneva convention....I am not even sure if Israel signed the Geneva Convention. On that note, I can't recall the last time any mid-east country fought by those rules. Sometimes I think the U.S. are the only ones held to that standard.
June 25th, 2002, 02:14 PM
egypshn

<blockquote>quote:<hr />From Sandman: I am not even sure if Israel signed the Geneva Convention <hr /></blockquote>This is a paragraph from one of several websites I found on Israel's actions and how it violates the Geneva Convention.......

Otherwise, 134 countries voted yes for the strong resolution that Palestinian envoy El-Kidwa called "in a sense the strongest resolution that the U.N. has ever passed" on the issue. It confirmed that the Geneva conventions still apply to the Israeli-occupied territories including Jerusalem. It condemned the settlements, and expressed its concern about armed Israeli settlers' behavior. Importantly, it called for action, which if the U.S. follows its own vote in 1950 is binding. First, it called for the parties who signed the Geneva Convention, such as the U.S., to do their duty to ensure compliance with them. Controversially, it called for the "cessation of all forms of assistance and support for illegal Israeli activities in the Occupied Palestinian Territory, including Jerusalem, in particular settlement activities."

As far as NATO, the U.S. is on Saddam because he has not allowed them to inspect the country for weaponry.

I hope this clears up my previous post......
June 25th, 2002, 09:15 PM
cookin chef

I get so tired of this never ending conflict where both sides have so much mistrust and hatred of each other.

From an extreme point of view, maybe to permanently settle this once and for all is to first warn and allow everyone to evacuate Israel for a cerain amount of Time.

Nuke it.

10,000 years of radiation will not allow anyone to settle back there.

This may cause WWIII, but at least the Jewish and Palistinean people will no longer war against each other for the Holy Land.

Plus the U.S. and other countries can finally stop playing politics in the middle east.
June 26th, 2002, 06:11 AM
ilovetheusers

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by egypshn:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />From Sandman: I am not even sure if Israel signed the Geneva Convention <hr /></blockquote>This is a paragraph from one of several websites I found on Israel's actions and how it violates the Geneva Convention.......

Otherwise, 134 countries voted yes for the strong resolution that Palestinian envoy El-Kidwa called "in a sense the strongest resolution that the U.N. has ever passed" on the issue. It confirmed that the Geneva conventions still apply to the Israeli-occupied territories including Jerusalem. It condemned the settlements, and expressed its concern about armed Israeli settlers' behavior. Importantly, it called for action, which if the U.S. follows its own vote in 1950 is binding. First, it called for the parties who signed the Geneva Convention, such as the U.S., to do their duty to ensure compliance with them. Controversially, it called for the "cessation of all forms of assistance and support for illegal Israeli activities in the Occupied Palestinian Territory, including Jerusalem, in particular settlement activities."

As far as NATO, the U.S. is on Saddam because he has not allowed them to inspect the country for weaponry.

I hope this clears up my previous post......<hr /></blockquote>I think you mean the UN. NATO is an organization that is an alliance of Western European nations against soviet aggression.

Now don’t take this as a flame but some of your information and thus your sources seem fairly specious and I’m wondering where they come from.
June 26th, 2002, 07:30 AM
egypshn

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> From: ilovetheusers:
I think you mean the UN. NATO is an organization that is an alliance of Western European nations against soviet aggression.

<hr /></blockquote>ilovetheusers, I do apologize for the mix-up. I did confuse NATO with UN. Whatever the acronym is....the fact remains that their is a double standard. As far as the Geneva Conventios is concerned it doesn't matter whether ot not Israel signed. The U.S. signed and they are supporting a nation which is violating every rule.
June 26th, 2002, 07:37 AM
Cleetus

So?!?!?

We are America, we are the richest, strongest, best, and prettiest nation(next to sweden on the pretty part, those chicks are hot) on Earth. We provide the UN with the majority of its money, we house the UN. Quite frankly I think we should be able to do what we want concerning the UN or anybody else.

Sometimes it helps to just be blunt and honest and let people know where you really stand.

Then again these are only my views, not those of anyone else affiliated with this forum. All those opposing my views are commie pinkos and will be getting a summons from my boy McCarthy very shortly. Thank you again, and kindly step out of our way before you are stepped on. This has been a Egocleetus Production.
June 26th, 2002, 08:06 AM
egypshn

<blockquote>quote:<hr />From: Illiterate Cleetus :
We are America, we are the richest, strongest, best, and prettiest nation(next to sweden on the pretty part, those chicks are hot) on Earth. We provide the UN with the majority of its money, we house the UN. Quite frankly I think we should be able to do what we want concerning the UN or anybody else.

Sometimes it helps to just be blunt and honest and let people know where you really stand.

<hr /></blockquote>Since we are being blunt......
#1. We are the richest....T
Their are several other countries who have much more money than the U.S. without a single soul living in the streets. Don't forget that money is always mesured on a "per-capita" basis and the U.S. is far from the richest.

#2. We are the best country....
This country offers great opportunities and is a beautiful place to live however I have been to many countries (outside of the middle ease) and have seen much better.

#3. We are the strongest country..
Well a bunch of cavedwellers just knocked down two of the most respected buildings in the U.S.

#4. We are the prettiest country...
Buy a copy of any modeling magazine with exotic scenery and underneath every picture it usually states the location of the shot. you'll see that about 10% of them are taken in the U.S. You don't get out much.

Sometimes it helps to just be blunt and honest and let people know where you really stand.
June 26th, 2002, 08:12 AM
Cleetus

THIS IS ALSO A JOKE

Hey if you look at my entire post, you will realize it is all in jest. You commie pinko, tree hugging, euro-loving, utopian from mars :D :D <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> :D :D

THIS IS ALSO A JOKE

Note from the editor: It has become too unpopular and too dangerous to support the US on this website so I can only sit here and make jokes about the subjects.
June 26th, 2002, 08:13 AM
kingtbone

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Illiterate Cleetus:
We provide the UN with the majority of its money, we house the UN.<hr /></blockquote>Whoa. Slow down. If the US actually paid their dues to the UN, then yes, they'd be the biggest providors. As it stands now, Canada contributes more for god's sakes. The US has accumulated over a 2 billion dollar debt to the UN in the past.
June 26th, 2002, 08:19 AM
egypshn

<blockquote>quote:<hr />From: Illiterate Cleetus :
Hey if you look at my entire post, you will realize it is all in jest. You commie pinko, tree hugging, euro-loving, utopian from mars <hr /></blockquote>Well you're definitely Illiterate........

I didn't anticipate you having much else to say anyways.
June 26th, 2002, 08:20 AM
egypshn

Thanks Kingtbone............
June 26th, 2002, 08:38 AM
Cleetus

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by egypshn:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />From: Illiterate Cleetus :
Hey if you look at my entire post, you will realize it is all in jest. You commie pinko, tree hugging, euro-loving, utopian from mars <hr /></blockquote>Well you're definitely Illiterate........

I didn't anticipate you having much else to say anyways.<hr /></blockquote>Chill out man, I didn't make any real remarks towards you or your views, I just made little pathetic jokes. I didn't mention how you kept bringing up jews in your first posts. To me it showed your bias right through. It is because of those views why I truly believe that America should stand by Isreal and why the whole situation is obscene. If you remember this time last year, America and several other countries sat out of the UN meeting in South Africa. That meeting was to blast Isreal and in promotion of the Palestenian cause. Then somehow a couple of months later, the battle was brought to America. I don't think there are many Afganees that seriously doubt that when you piss us off that we will put some hurt to you.

Personally I think the whole problem is due to pride on all parties. Many of the former Ottoman territories and also the Muslim nations are hurt in their personal pride becasue they realize they are nothing. Without oil, the would be nowhere. Here comes Isreal, with money and the full backing of the Western world right in their yard. And everytime they have tried to do something, they have gotten their rear's handed to them. A hurt pride couple with religious fervor is a scarry, scarry thing. It is something that will take a long time to heal.
June 26th, 2002, 08:45 AM
kingtbone

I'd say both sides have heavy fault lain in them, and the way it looks, neither side will reconcile under their current leaders. But if you think about it, what's the solution? It's an impossible situation to begin with, and I can't see how it will ever be resolved.
June 26th, 2002, 08:50 AM
Sandman72

ok enough with the mud slinging. This was supposed to be an open venue to discuss differing opinions on a difficult subject. I feel each side has given me some good food for thought. My thought on the matter...
Yes Americans are very egocentric. We always feel we have and are the best at everything. Some times it is warrented and other times it is not. As far as being the strongest nation...Militarily we are. So what some "cavedwellers" (not my word so save the flame) knocked down some buildings. That doesn't mean we are weak. Even the strongest of fighters get black eyes or bloody noses. As far as Palestine and Israel I think both sides have been wrong. I don't agree with what either side has done. Israel seems to take the attitude that if you kill one we kill 20. thats their form of a deterent that doen't seem to work too well. The palestinans use suicide bombers against civillian targets. Personally, I find those actions cowardice and completely reprehensible. I don't advocate any combatants ever attacking civillian targets on purpose. The trick against palestine is try to determine who the innocents are. Arafat really needs to show the world something by cracking down hard on the militants and I don't mean token arrests of a few minor players. He needs to be equally outraged about attacks on civillians. This may garner him a little more support from the west. This may also have the benefit of removing any excuse Israel has which may turn public opinion against Israel. Right now it doesn't seems like any side really wants peace. They may pay it lip service but thats about all they do. The Palestinians may also help their cause by condeming those (hamas namely)that refuse to acknowledge that israel (like the palestinians) have a right to exist.

Well thats just my thoughts for now. Who knows maybe another opinion will sway me a little more. But for now I think they are both wrong.
June 26th, 2002, 08:54 AM
egypshn

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Chill out man, I didn't make any real remarks towards you or your views, I just made little pathetic jokes. I didn't mention how you kept bringing up jews in your first posts. To me it showed your bias right through. It is because of those views why I truly believe that America should stand by Isreal and why the whole situation is obscene. If you remember this time last year, America and several other countries sat out of the UN meeting in South Africa. That meeting was to blast Isreal and in promotion of the Palestenian cause. Then somehow a couple of months later, the battle was brought to America.

Personally I think the whole problem is due to pride on all parties. Many of the former Ottoman territories and also the Muslim nations are hurt in their personal pride becasue they realize they are nothing. Without oil, the would be nowhere. Here comes Isreal, with money and the full backing of the Western world right in their yard. And everytime they have tried to do something, they have gotten their rear's handed to them. A hurt pride couple with religious fervor is a scarry, scarry thing. It is something that will take a long time to heal.

<hr /></blockquote>My views have nothing to do with "Jews" or their religion. My views are always geared towards Israel, it just happens that Jews are the ones who live there. It's the Israelis, if they were Muslim, my views would be the same.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I don't think there are many Afganees that seriously doubt that when you piss us off that we will put some hurt to you.
<hr /></blockquote>Yeah, blowing up Afghanistan is something to be proud of............
June 26th, 2002, 09:40 AM
Cygnus

First of all, this is my ONE post on this subject, so please do not direct any questions my way. I simply felt the urge to use my rights and state my opinion here....

The US, Britain, Russia, and countless other countries which are involved with the UN have had enormous conflicts within their borders over everthing from human rights to personal religion just as Palestine and Isreal have now, as well as India and Pakistan. All these countries came to a successfull peace, but not before learning hard lessons through bloody conflict where their own people fought each other for control. There is just one difference here. All these countries (including the US)found final resolution to their conflicts and are now productive members of the world community. All these countries IMHO are more than qaulified to consult these childish peoples on how to better get along since they have demonstrated so often how they cant do it themselves. If nessesarry spankings should be handed out to the bad children and their privledges taken away until they show that they can get along as well as give something productive and positive to the world.
In short,the UN are the parents and they are the children. Start getting along down there and stop ruining my life or im gonna come down there and hand out some beatings!
June 26th, 2002, 11:56 AM
ilovetheusers

The US refused payment to the UN back in Regans term and I’m not sure where you get your figures but I’m pretty sure that the US is and always has been the biggest supporter. Now, Canada is a massive supporter but the US is usually the one who has military troops involved in peacekeeping actions around the world (I know this as one of my friends in artillery support is constantly being lugged to whatever war torn hell hole the media offers up that day). We spend so much to have our military here and there and everywhere and no one ever pays us a dime for it. Just FYI. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

Egypshn: Where are you getting your information from? What news source?

I ask because the Palestinians and their supporters have a propaganda machine in place that is well oiled and running with steam. It has been designed to demonize Israel and it’s supporter and so far it’s been pretty effective upon the people of my country and the rest of the world. I have heard that CNN and US Media are somehow biased against the Palestinians or the Middle East but they followed government edit to NOT show people throughout the Middle East celebrating the fact that terrorists had knocked down the world trade center towers. They printed the story about the Israeli tank crew shooting the mother and her daughters, they print about the Israelis firing into crowds when they are amassed and throwing bottles and rocks. Where does this bias come from? I say that the case is the other way around – I have yet to see footage of a little Israeli girls limbs lying about the street from a suicide bomber – bought and paid for from Arafat’s coffers! And don’t hand us that line about how he is not a part of Hamas. I for one do not doubt for a moment that he is the head of the organization. It’s the same thing as Northern Ireland – the leaders state they have no control over the terrorists – it’s a damn lie and we all know it.

As for the policy of killing 20 for every Israeli, I don’t get where this comes from. I call it self-defense. The Israelis have settlements in the lands they took in wars. After a war you are allowed to colonize the land you took – them’s the breaks. I suggest that the nations of the region stop attacking Israel and this will not happen again. Afghanistan – the land where books were outlawed and women not allowed to go out in the streets for fear of being beaten – human rights violated in the name of religion. I would refer you to the people there who could be shot for having an opinion that was different from the leaders. We helped liberate that country and we brought the people back to power instead of a bunch of religious despots. We may have dropped bombs on civilians but it was only because of the cowardice of those you would probably consider to be “swell guys” hiding in and among the populace to deter us from destroying their armies. Don’t talk to me about how this was something to be embarrassed about, we freed those people from tyranny. Go to the web sites of the poor women forced to live in the conditions set by the Taliban and the other rulers. Watch the videos of people being shot before sporting events because they disagreed politically. See the brutality of the people we sent packing. <a href="http://rawasongs.fancymarketing.net/gallery.html" target="_blank">http://rawasongs.fancymarketing.net/gallery.html</a>

Again – where are you getting your information from? :confused:
June 26th, 2002, 12:21 PM
egypshn

<blockquote>quote:<hr />From: ilovetheusers:
And don’t hand us that line about how he is not a part of Hamas. I for one do not doubt for a moment that he is the head of the organization. It’s the same thing as Northern Ireland – the leaders state they have no control over the terrorists – it’s a damn lie and we all know it.

<hr /></blockquote>You have the guts to aske me where I obtain my information from????? That was the most ludricrous statement I have seen yet. No offense but you need to read up on your "current affairs".

Actually the fact that you have not seen footage of dead citizens in Israel is a damn lie! You and I both know it.

Please don't talk about granting the people of Afghanistan freedom by knocking out the Taliban. It's a bunch of sh*t and you know nothing about the country or what goes on there.

For the record, my information is obtained first hand through people who live in those countries unlike yours obtained through one-sided media anchorman/woman who simply say what benefits the network as opposed to saying the truth.

I also have friends in the military who fill me in on what goes on in the shadows.

I am going to suggest we end this forum on a pleasant note. Their were many valid and strong opinions given however we may as well be Israel and Palestine, I don't think either side is going to convince the other of their opinion. It was nice to chat with all of you.
June 26th, 2002, 12:56 PM
kingtbone

Hold on now ilovetheusers, I'm not going to let you call out other people's sources without checking you :D

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by ilovetheusers:
The US refused payment to the UN back in Regans term and I’m not sure where you get your figures but I’m pretty sure that the US is and always has been the biggest supporter.<hr /></blockquote>Ok, figures...
<a href="http://www.globalpolicy.org/finance/tables/core/un-us-02.htm" target="_blank">Take a look</a>

The US now owes just over 1 billion to the UN. The funny stat is that it owes more than the rest of the planet combined.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Now, Canada is a massive supporter but the US is usually the one who has military troops involved in peacekeeping actions around the world <hr /></blockquote>In terms of troops, I'd be beyond surprise if the US was in the top 5 for sending troops on UN peacekeeping operations. I'm not even talking about per-capita either. I'll try to find some stats on that too if you'd like.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />As for the policy of killing 20 for every Israeli, I don’t get where this comes from. I call it self-defense. The Israelis have settlements in the lands they took in wars. After a war you are allowed to colonize the land you took – them’s the breaks. <hr /></blockquote>I think therein lies the core problem. So many people from both sides have been displaced from their homes, how will they ever solve this? The reason the Palestinians fight so hard is that they've been fored from their homes and from their land. There are almost 4 million Palestinian refugees registered with the UN today. It's hard to expect them to just give up their homes and move on.

Also I don't think peace can be brokered with the current leaders from either side.
June 26th, 2002, 02:16 PM
ilovetheusers

T bone - you got me there - best to check my sources - though this graph:
<a href="http://www.globalpolicy.org/finance/tables/tab5.htm" target="_blank">http://www.globalpolicy.org/finance/tables/tab5.htm</a>
seems to kind of go along with what I didn't explain properly. Regan and Bush did not pay UN dues for some reason or another (I think they were disagreeing with our policies so we gave them the finger and told them to foot the bill themselves). The #'s stabilize during the Clinton era when we started paying again. Also - we owe more because we pay more than anyone else, again – from what I understand – I may be wrong. I can't find out who pays what from their records but find it odd that they went deeply in debt when we stopped contributing.

Also, if you can find some stats on what who contributes money and soldiers I'd appreciate it. If I'm dead wrong I really want to know so I can change my viewpoint -wouldn't be the first time. Still, I think if you looked that you would find the US, over the entire period of time of the UN’s existence, contributed more than any other.

egypshn
I didn't mean to offend you bud. Asking someone where he/she gets info is fairly commonplace here. I have been know to change my opinions in the face of new information and what I was looking for is the media outlet you use as I would actually go there myself. I get my info from talk radio and the newspapers political sections.

Now, don’t take this as an offensive statement. As for saying that you know people in the Mid East - you really know people in every single country and do you know people who know Arafat? What freedoms do their press have that assures that they can print something the government does not like? Most folks outside the US don’t have a constitution that protects the press and lets them print what they will. That’s what I was getting at.

And, I don’t feel that all of our media is one sided at all if you see all of it and not just CNN. I do feel that the televised media isn’t a decent source of information at all though and personally I avoid it whenever I can. As for seeing dead Israeli’s in the news, you are right, I have seen that, but don’t discount the barrage of media about the other side. I have seen photos of shot/wounded Palestinians but not dismembered people from the bombings, more of a damaged building and disoriented people.

As for not know what is going on in Afghanistan, I probably know more than you think but not as much as others and no I do not know what someone there experiences first hand. I can take things from RAWA and see how bad things were with the Taliban running things. If you want to discount the things the website I posted notes, I’m OK with that. Just give me the alternative news source so I can go there.

I too would like things to remain pleasant, I just like to gets things straight. If my sources are incorrect, I will do research and might change my opinion.
June 26th, 2002, 02:20 PM
Cleetus

Great reply, kinda wish they would hurry up with technology and make a better 'You Were There' series. That would be cool, plus if could make it somehow unbiased we could learn from eachothers experiences so much better.
June 26th, 2002, 02:44 PM
NeuromancerIV

I think Arafat is largely now reduced to being a figure head and propaganda piece. He knows he can't stop the suicide bombers, and he also knows that if he agrees to ANY peace deal that doesn't include the unilateral destruction of Israel, he'd he dead within hours. Arafat IMHO, is a non-player. Arafat personally approved expenditures for suicide bombers. While publicly condemning suicide bombing in ENGLISH, Arafat, in Arabic, praises the bombers as martyrs, while urging "jihad, jihad, jihad." He serves no purpose except as the mouth piece of other Arab interests

Why dont they get help from their Muslim Brothers..hmmm could it be the Palestinians under Arafat tried to overthrow the late king of Jordan, King Hussein in 1970. The Arabic nations provide funds for the suicide bombers only because they hate Israel, not becasue they love the Palestinians. From what I've seen, read about and personally witnessed, is that the Arab world has been using the Palestinians as cannon fodder...their deaths as propoganda..

Why? No arabic nation is willing to openly confront Israel, because Israel is a nuclear power, and of course the US and oil...

Is there a solution at this point? I don't really think so. A recent New York Times article questioned several leaders of Hamas. Did these leaders envision a side-by-side peaceful coexistence with a Jewish state called Israel? No.

The most optimistic answer was provided by one Dr. Mahmoud al-Zahar said, "(Jews could live) in an Islamic state with Islamic law. Great..

And for sake of comparison, how many hundreds of thousand of people have died in Muslim on Muslim violence? The Iran/Iraq war comes to mind and many others. Israel has been the model of restraint and tolerance in comparison....

And no, I am not really a supporter of Israel either, even though they are the ONLY consistent ally of the US and the only thing approximating a democracy in the region.

I'd like to be hopeful, to have the violence end, for both parties to get what they want, for them both to stop the killing, but I just can't see much hope at this point....

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