Domains and workgroups, how to set up

My client has just installed a new Windows 2003 server, how do I set it up to access the workgroup that has all the other machines on it ( a mix of XP and Windows 2000 boxes).

Currently the 2003 machine shows in Network Neighbourhood as a separate group (domain?). None of those machines can see the new server in Network Neighbourhood, just the other machines in their workgroup.

I am new to this server stuff so forgive me if this is a basic question that I should know. I tried to find the answer in the help topics but am now more confused than before.

Bob start by renaming the system to the same as your workgroup by right clicking My Computer and selecting Properties. Then select the computer name tab and then the change button to rename the system or join a workgroup. After that check your tcp/ip settings and set those to match your network configuration. Goto Network Places right click select properties then select Lan Connection right click and properties select internet protocol [tcp/ip] properties. Hope this helps and isnt to confusing.

Nunob,

Thanks for the reply!

I tried to do that but the machine seems to be set up as a domain server and as a consequence I can not use the properties window to join a workgroup as that option is grayed out.

How do I get that option to activate? Do I need to remove it as a domain server some how?

The TCP/IP connection seems to be working as I can access the internet with no problems.

When I go to Network Neighbourhood I see two items, the new 2003 server in one group and the other workgroup that has all the other machines. I want to get this machine into that other group and the properties tab won't let me.

The client really only needs peer to peer protocols with this 2003 server box acting as a file server/repository of common files used by the client machines. They really do not have any "server" applications to speak of.

Hope that makes sense.

Who set it up as a domain controller?

if it's a domain controller you should be able to run dcpromo and remove it as a domain controller. then join it to the workgroup.

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Originally Posted by kato2274

if it's a domain controller you should be able to run dcpromo and remove it as a domain controller. then join it to the workgroup.

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I think it's safe to say that you need an outside consultant to set this up. And whoever installed it without giving you a viable enviornment should be sued!

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Originally Posted by Ya_know

I think it's safe to say that you need an outside consultant to set this up. And whoever installed it without giving you a viable enviornment should be sued!

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true, but dcpromo is the actual answer to the question though right?

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Originally Posted by kato2274

true, but dcpromo is the actual answer to the question though right?

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You stick to your advise, and I will stick to mine... :thumbs:

I think the client was messing around and "accidentally" set it as a domain controller (since he paid for the machine and demanded the password it is kinda hard to keep him out of it).

I'll try dcpromo and see what happens.

Thanks for the quick replies!! :drink:

Oh...you are the outside consultant. My bad. DCPromo is your ticket out’a this mess for the short term. But then you need to determine what is the best method of upgrading the environment. A domain will be a much better solution. Requires just a little bit more setup time then a workgroup, but once it's up and running smooth, it becomes much easier to manage...

Also, is this Windows Server 2003, or Windows Small Business Server 2003?

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Originally Posted by kato2274

true, but dcpromo is the actual answer to the question though right?

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And your answer is only partly right. Yes, to get the server into the existing workgroup he's got to demote it. But is that the best solution here???

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Originally Posted by Ya_know

And your answer is only partly right. Yes, to get the server into the existing workgroup he's got to demote it. But is that the best solution here???

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that wasn't the question though was it? the question was/is how does he get this thing out of it's own domain and into the workgroup. the answer is . . . . drum roll please . . . . DCPROMO.

as far as what is best .. . . . well it's hard to say. what is best for you or me, may well be to just join the other computers to that domain and run an active directory domain.. . . . but since he doesn't know what DCPROMO is or does . . . . than how easy is domain management really going to be??? this may well be the best solution for this PARTICULAR problem. I wouldn't reccomend anyone setup a domain in a production enviroment with no windows server or active directory experience, and sincehe describes the servers function with this quote

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a file server/repository of common files used by the client machines. They really do not have any "server" applications to speak of.

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then the BEST solution might be one of those cheap little NAS servers like this

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Originally Posted by kato2274

that wasn't the question though was it? the question was/is how does he get this thing out of it's own domain and into the workgroup. the answer is . . . . drum roll please . . . . DCPROMO.

as far as what is best .. . . . well it's hard to say. what is best for you or me, may well be to just join the other computers to that domain and run an active directory domain.. . . . but since he doesn't know what DCPROMO is or does . . . . than how easy is domain management really going to be??? this may well be the best solution for this PARTICULAR problem. I wouldn't reccomend anyone setup a domain in a production enviroment with no windows server or active directory experience, and sincehe describes the servers function with this quote then the BEST solution might be one of those cheap little NAS servers like this

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As an outside consultant, he needs to know what is best for this client, and part of that is knowing the products in order to make a sound judgment call. If he doesn't know any flavor of 2000/2003 server in an AD environment, then he needs to learn. Because if he decides to remain a workgroup simply because it is easier for him to understand (being that he doesn’t know AD) that isn’t a sound decision with the best interest of the client in mind. In the mean time, referring the client to a reputable firm sounds like the honorable thing to do, that was why I suggested it before.

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Originally Posted by Ya_know

As an outside consultant, he needs to know what is best for this client, and part of that is knowing the products in order to make a sound judgment call. If he doesn't know any flavor of 2000/2003 server in an AD environment, then he needs to learn.

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but not in their production enviroment https://forums.windrivers.com/images.../2005/03/1.gif

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Because if he decides to remain a workgroup simply because it is easier for him to understand (being that he doesn’t know AD) that isn’t a sound decision with the best interest of the client in mind.

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there is no way you can know this. not everyone NEEDS a domain. case in point. my family runs a small business and uses proprietary business software which has it's own client and server applications. that program is all they pretty much use aside from a bit of MS office stuff. for them a domain is absolutely pointless. they have no need for it. A 2k server running DHCP, the proprietary server app, terminal services and doing simple file sharing is the best route for them. we even explored linux options sharing the database files via samba.. . . . an active directory domain is not always in the best interests of a client. . . it's silly to even assume that.

plus I wouldn't reccomend anyone run a production domain with only one domain controller, gotta have at least 2

I'll be the first one to say I am getting beyond my level of expertise/experience in this and yes I need to increase my knowledge.

Please point me at a good manual or any other recommendation to help me get up to speed.

The client situation is however, as Kato2274 describes, a small business with only one true client server application, the rest of their need is simple file sharing. They currently have a Windows 2000 server box (a 166 pentium with an older SCSI raid setup) which has run out of horsepower (slow). They bought a dual 2.8 cpus 2003 box with fast SCSI raid to replace it. The entire environment is only 18 pcs with 3 shared printers. They will grow but only a few pcs a year.

I figured that if we put the new machine into the same workgroup then it will be easy for them (and me) to move the shared files/and the client server app from the old box to the new with a minimum of disruption to their environment. They are not server experts (nor am I) but do want to control the environment themselves. I am the outside consultant who maintains their hardware and software on a on-call basis. I have told them that I do not have much Windows Server experience but they are willing to let me assist them due to the quality of my support on their previous situations.

So I am trying to keep it simple for both our sakes. No one is born knowing any of this, it is all learned, but I am hoping I can grow both their knowledge and mine without causing grief for them (or me :eek2: )

Thanks for your help (and my client thanks you as well!!)

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Originally Posted by kato2274

but not in their production enviroment https://forums.windrivers.com/images.../2005/03/1.gif


there is no way you can know this. not everyone NEEDS a domain. case in point. my family runs a small business and uses proprietary business software which has it's own client and server applications. that program is all they pretty much use aside from a bit of MS office stuff. for them a domain is absolutely pointless. they have no need for it. A 2k server running DHCP, the proprietary server app, terminal services and doing simple file sharing is the best route for them. we even explored linux options sharing the database files via samba.. . . . an active directory domain is not always in the best interests of a client. . . it's silly to even assume that.

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No sh!t not in the client’s working environment. You are the one that said he should work on the environment. I said he should walk away. I never once said he should learn on their stuff. See here we are actually agreeing, but you want to argue anyway... :p, so I will continue.

My point about the domain is the same as yours; you just don't want to see it. If the environment doesn't need a domain, he should draw that conclusion because of the facts of the environment, not the current state of his knowledge. It's silly to assume that I said anything other than that!

And you are right about two servers, but adding a second wouldn’t cost that much in the long run, less than $2k with IDE RAID and the license for windows. In light of the new information (that being 18 PC’s) a workgroup is certainly not the best solution, although it may work just fine. I personally would bump up to a domain, get a second server, and join each of the PC’s, preferably copying the profiles to the new user ID’s that are created, to eliminate as much desktop differences for the users. But that’s a lot of upfront work…when it’s all said and done it will operate much more smoothly…and certainly be scaleable for future growth, where the workgroup is already busting at the seems…

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Originally Posted by Ya_know

........but you want to argue anyway...

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no actually that would be you . . . the person who turned this into to a whole "what is best" after the question was already technically and correctly answered.

The client just spent about $6k for the new server and is not going to spring for a second one.

As to learning, I do not have any other client who has Windows Server boxes so this is the only server environment that I have access to.

What I am looking for is how to grow the client and myself so that we avoid any major problems (they are running a business using these boxes).

The solution optimally should be within their budget, expertise (and mine :) )

I have only been working with them for about 5 months and so far they are happy. They and I know they have not done things optimally to date and are trying to improve. Their last in-house expert, who got them this far, left and took most of their desktop machines with him (theft - server box was in a locked cabinet and not stolen, all desktop machines were).

I do admit a Server expert would be able to lead them better but they do not want to spend the $200 an hour the locals charge for that level of service (even if that is the "right" solution).

If we can get things running well, get the data over to the new box and learn in the process, everyone is going to go home happy.

Please don't be offended by my lack of expertise and desire to keep this within simple boundaries that can be made to work reasonably well. I do have my client's best interests in my heart but would be reluctant to just throw them away knowing they have even less experience and knowledge than I do.

How do we:

Learn the Server way (gradually)

Keep things rolling

Stay within budget?

A workgroup seems like it would do what is needed even if not the "best" methodology. But I have been wrong before...

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Originally Posted by kato2274

no actually that would be you . . . the person who turned this into to a whole "what is best" after the question was already technically and correctly answered.

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You are taking credit for that answer being "correct". Let me refresh your memory, Networking 101, workgroup environments should be no more than 10 computers. As it stands he has 18, plus the server, and perhaps another to backup the domain, plus I am sure the owner of the company would love to see some growth, (who wouldn't). Where do you see workgroup being the best solution here?

This needs to be setup correctly. Running DCPromo is like saying point and click. Where else did you plan to take him? Or were you going to leave it with that brilliant "technically and correctly answered" response and leave him to the wolves when the workgroup grinds to a halt?

He should demote the server, then promote it correctly, creating a new domain, simply because it will erase what the last dude did to the server, and allow him to build on this from scratch, add a second server, and promote that one to a DC. Then migrate the PC’s to the new domain. End of story. I am not taking credit for any of my answers, as I know to do it that way would take some work, and I am certainly not going to spoon feed all of the steps.

Sorry Bob T, I hate being this blunt with you, being that you are new here. But I have to call it like I see it. Feel free to take all of this with a grain of salt.

Bob T, you said there is an old server in place, what OS is on it?

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Originally Posted by Ya_know

You are taking credit for that answer being "correct". Let me refresh your memory, Networking 101, workgroup environments should be no more than 10 computers. As it stands he has 18, plus the server, and perhaps another to backup the domain, plus I am sure the owner of the company would love to see some growth, (who wouldn't). Where do you see workgroup being the best solution here?

This needs to be setup correctly. Running DCPromo is like saying point and click. Where else did you plan to take him? Or were you going to leave it with that brilliant "technically and correctly answered" response and leave him to the wolves when the workgroup grinds to a halt?

He should demote the server, then promote it correctly, creating a new domain, simply because it will erase what the last dude did to the server, and allow him to build on this from scratch, add a second server, and promote that one to a DC. Then migrate the PC’s to the new domain. End of story. I am not taking credit for any of my aanswers, as I know to do it that way would take some work, and I am certainly not going to spoon feed all of the steps.

Sorry Bob T, I hate being this blunt with you, being that you are new here. But I have to call it like I see it. Feel free to take all of this with a grain of salt.

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let me be blunt dip$hit https://forums.windrivers.com/images.../2005/02/1.gif. what was the question? a server in it's own domain that he wants to join to the workgroup. what is the answer? dcpromo. I'm not the one talking about what is best here that is you. I answered the question. as far as point and click I can happily provide the dcpromo tutorial as well. I agree with you that he's probably in over his head, but it's not really my place to determine that. he asked a question and got an answer.

as far as your networking 101. this is either taught wrong or you learned it wrong. after 10 a dedicated SERVER is needed and advisable NOT A DOMAIN per say. the problems that occur after 10 are administration issues and broadcast issues from name resolution. A DNS server handles name resolution, DHCP IP Address issues, the server can be remotely administered via terminal services etc. I agree that after 10 a dedicated SERVER is advisable, but that doesn't mean DOMAIN. I can put in a simple linux box to run DNS, DHCP, file sand print sharing, and control user accounts that I can administer remotely and centrally for a workgroup of unlimited number of computers. . . . I've done it! One of the setups I support has I believe 25 pcs setup as a "workgroup" a linux box handles DHCP file sharing, is the master browser and handles DNS name resolution handles user accounts . . . . runs as smooth as if it was a domain. . . . if you are going to pull out networking 101 at least get the concept right. it's a SERVER not necesarily a DOMAIN that is advisable after 10.

The old server is running Windows 2000 Server Service Pack 3 with a small SCSI raid array on it (41 GB, 33 GB unused).

It is a old single cpu pentium 166 with 64 meg of memory (an old Gateway 2000 box).

It was not set up with domains, just another workgroup member.

They plan to either retire it or turn it into a security server (run a camera security/surveillance package on it).

Can it have a role or value in their new environment? My opinion was it has long passed beyond its capabilities...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bob T

The client just spent about $6k for the new server and is not going to spring for a second one.

As to learning, I do not have any other client who has Windows Server boxes so this is the only server environment that I have access to.

What I am looking for is how to grow the client and myself so that we avoid any major problems (they are running a business using these boxes).

The solution optimally should be within their budget, expertise (and mine :) )

I have only been working with them for about 5 months and so far they are happy. They and I know they have not done things optimally to date and are trying to improve. Their last in-house expert, who got them this far, left and took most of their desktop machines with him (theft - server box was in a locked cabinet and not stolen, all desktop machines were).

I do admit a Server expert would be able to lead them better but they do not want to spend the $200 an hour the locals charge for that level of service (even if that is the "right" solution).

If we can get things running well, get the data over to the new box and learn in the process, everyone is going to go home happy.

Please don't be offended by my lack of expertise and desire to keep this within simple boundaries that can be made to work reasonably well. I do have my client's best interests in my heart but would be reluctant to just throw them away knowing they have even less experience and knowledge than I do.

How do we:

Learn the Server way (gradually)

Keep things rolling

Stay within budget?

A workgroup seems like it would do what is needed even if not the "best" methodology. But I have been wrong before...

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no I think you're on track. they shouldn't be running a domain without at least 2 domain controllers. . . . so if they aren't going to spend anymore cash then there is no point even talking about domain. if you the server crashes, you can *hopefully* pull the shared files off of it (or backup) and put them on another pc temporarily then remap the shared drives as a temporary solution. it's a bit of work, but far less than having an active directory domain completely crash. . . . you've got to remove the pcs from the domain, but if the domain is down, how do you do that??????

I would think about learning some server services though which would help at least minimize the strain of 18 PCS in a workgroup . . . DHCP, DNS, maybe WINS services would be things to look into and beneficial even if the server is a member of the workgroup.

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Originally Posted by Bob T

The old server is running Windows 2000 Server Service Pack 3 with a small SCSI raid array on it (41 GB, 33 GB unused).

It is a old single cpu pentium 166 with 64 meg of memory (an old Gateway 2000 box).

It was not set up with domains, just another workgroup member.

They plan to either retire it or turn it into a security server (run a camera security/surveillance package on it).

Can it have a role or value in their new environment? My opinion was it has long passed beyond its capabilities...

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well this is not offered as a "what is best" solution or even one that is within your realm of expertise, just a possible solution . . . . . but that machine would probably do quite well with a linux distribution running as network attached storage . . . possibly to backup the file server to. . . . you could go with something specialized like SME, clark connect or something similar, or just a plain jane red hat install that boots to command prompt and use webmin to administer it.

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Originally Posted by kato2274

well this is not offered as a "what is best" solution or even one that is within your realm of expertise, just a possible solution . . . . . but that machine would probably do quite well with a linux distribution running as network attached storage . . . possibly to backup the file server to. . . . you could go with something specialized like SME, clark connect or something similar, or just a plain jane red hat install that boots to command prompt and use webmin to administer it.

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Or he could upgrade to 2003, and use this server and the new one to create a domain. I am foggy in the difference between 2000 and 2003, but I recall that there are some issues with both being domain controllers, in that the upgrade would be necessary for seamless integration. But…if both will work together as domain controllers, then all he has to do is DCPromo this one with the new one and you have a pair of DC’s at no additional cost.

And you're right, I got ahead of myself with the whole networking 101. A dedicated server as opposed to peer to peer, the gangue being 10 PC's. But it still has it's pitfaults as a workgroup. I don't need to list those to you do I?

And I am hurt, usually I am the first to resort to name-calling. Here you are beating me to the punch. Now look at who's the @$$hole... :thumbs:

Oh sh!t, I just looked at the specs of the old server. Forget the upgrade... :p

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Originally Posted by Ya_know

And I am hurt, usually I am the first to resort to name-calling. Here you are beating me to the punch. Now look at who's the @$$hole... :thumbs:

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:grin: :grin:

Kato2274,

Thank you!

Where do I learn the items you mention? I think I need a Server 101 type of knowledge but do not have the time or budget to go away to class for any extended time period.

I am a one man pc repair and support shop with a limited budget. Most of my clients are home or very small business users. This particular client is my largest and I do feel they are on the edge of my being able to support them well.

I am eager to learn (want to get to that $200 an hour level :thumbs: ) but not sure where to start.

Is there a good book or books on this?

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Originally Posted by Bob T

Kato2274,

Thank you!

Where do I learn the items you mention? I think I need a Server 101 type of knowledge but do not have the time or budget to go away to class for any extended time period.

I am a one man pc repair and support shop with a limited budget. Most of my clinets are home or very small business users. This particular client is my largest and I do feel they are on the edge of my being able to support them well.

I am eager to learn (want to get to that $200 an hour level :thumbs: ) but not sure where to start.

Is there a good book or books on this?

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bob,

for active directory and windows server, the MS books are pretty good. I may have spares. . . .I'll shoot you a Private message about it. . . .so check your pms . . . . from user cp.

the linux stuff. . . . I'm still learning. +Daemon+ is as close to a guru around here as we have. gollo is pretty good too. . . they may have some resources for you. the best way to learn linux though is to get an old machine and install stuff. for gateway/server I like SME. for gateway/router smoothwall rocks.

Start by downloading the evaluation kit or order the CD's. Install on a pc at your home/office, and make it a server. You can load up two if you want to get things going exactly like you would want to setup for your client.

http://www.microsoft.com/windowsserv...l/evalkit.mspx

Here you can find out about different publications...
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsserv...e/default.mspx