Any Outboard Motor Expoerts out there?

I know this could be a long shot but what the hey there are a few gear heads in here, maybe someone knows Outboards... Ill check out http://www.iboats.com later when I get home from work if nobody knows..

My father is currently struggling with a 2000 Evinrude 225 Ram Ficht Motor.
The motor misfires at high RPM. It Idles great, and starts fine. It starts to missfire and eventually bogs down to a slow crawl after awhile.
He has done all the recalls, and upgrades and it still wont run properly. Hes had it in the shop for roughly 6 months for testing and reprogramming and new sparkplugs... Nothing seems to be working...

I'm not a boat engine expert, but I understand pretty well how engines work. I would bet that there's a problem with the air/gas mixture, possibly a malfuntioning choke?

You can tell a lot about an engine by looking at the spark plugs. I would put a brand new plug in, run it till she pukes and then look at the plug again. Then consult a haynes or chilton repair manual for pictures of malfunctioning spark plugs and match up the pics to what yours looks like.

Wow, google says that's one badace motor. Has the fuel filter been replaced? That's first if you haven't changed it already.

Is this carbuerated or fuel injected? If carb, you may have a plugged (or incorrect size) main jet. You hit the mainjet at full open throttle, and with boat motors, that's generally the only time you're in the real high RPMs.



Hmmm....another thought, is this a 2-cycle or 4-cycle motor?

http://adcache.boattraderonline.com/6/6/6/65279666.htm

If that's the same thing as what he's got, it's a 2 stroke with electronic fuel injection.

With the shop thing.....did they check for bad/cracked block?
(Had one...ugly.)
Bought new? Used?
2-stroke/ oil2gas mixture? Only a couple of things that can go wrong.
No/bad fuel.
No/bad air.
Cooling issue?
Sounds like he may have a release problem in his fuel tank. Not getting enough gas when he's opened. Check the fuel venting.
Kin of like when you toilet backs up when you have leaves in the vent port.

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Originally Posted by jstut

With the shop thing.....did they check for bad/cracked block?
(Had one...ugly.)
Bought new? Used?
2-stroke/ oil2gas mixture? Only a couple of things that can go wrong.
No/bad fuel.
No/bad air.
Cooling issue?
Sounds like he may have a release problem in his fuel tank. Not getting enough gas when he's opened. Check the fuel venting.
Kin of like when you toilet backs up when you have leaves in the vent port.

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My vote goes for fuel tank.

Specially when the shop puts the motor on their own rack and tells you life is good.
Kinda like tech crap.
I KNOW it worked fine on MY bench..
Thanks C

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Originally Posted by Diver01

My father is currently struggling with a 2000 Evinrude 225 Ram Ficht Motor.
The motor misfires at high RPM. It Idles great, and starts fine. It starts to missfire and eventually bogs down to a slow crawl after awhile.
He has done all the recalls, and upgrades and it still wont run properly. Hes had it in the shop for roughly 6 months for testing and reprogramming and new sparkplugs... Nothing seems to be working...

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Two things come to mind.

1: Oil/gas ratio may be a bit on the oil-rich side, causing the plugs to foul; pull the plugs and check to see if they're wet just after it bogs down.

2: Depending on system, the fuel injection system may be too highly pressurized; at low RPM it would take longer to foul since the injectors are not open for very long, but at high RPM they tend to be more in an "open" state and allows the fuel to continuously "dump" into the cylinders. Check for leaking injectors, or fuel pump pressure.

Now THAT is a motor-head!
Great call.

Ok, heres what I have so far...

Air Fuel mixture is all computer Controlled. YEAH! :) I do not think thats the problem. After thinking through the problem some more and also posting in Iboat forums.., I have a feeling the tank is not ventelating properly (Good Call JSTUT!) I would have never thought of that.... . I think a vacuum is being created inside the tank cause it to die after its run at full throttle.

One fuel filter was replace. aparently theres a second he missed. Hes replacing that this week.

The dealer supposedly checked the fuel pump, block,all sensors computer.. ect..and it was all ok. I am going to sudgest to my father that if the tank isnt creating a vacuum or teh bulb is good, no leaks ect... then check the fuel flow at full throttle. He will have to get a guage for that but im sure hell manage..

Thanks for the tips..... :) Ill let you know what he finds..

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Diver01

Ok, heres what I have so far...

Air Fuel mixture is all computer Controlled. YEAH! :) I do not think thats the problem. After thinking through the problem some more and also posting in Iboat forums.., I have a feeling the tank is not ventelating properly (Good Call JSTUT!) I would have never thought of that.... . I think a vacuum is being created inside the tank cause it to die after its run at full throttle.

One fuel filter was replace. aparently theres a second he missed. Hes replacing that this week.

The dealer supposedly checked the fuel pump, block,all sensors computer.. ect..and it was all ok. I am going to sudgest to my father that if the tank isnt creating a vacuum or teh bulb is good, no leaks ect... then check the fuel flow at full throttle. He will have to get a guage for that but im sure hell manage..

Thanks for the tips..... :) Ill let you know what he finds..

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Is this your dive boat?

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Originally Posted by Diver01

Ok, heres what I have so far...

Air Fuel mixture is all computer Controlled. YEAH! :) I do not think thats the problem. After thinking through the problem some more and also posting in Iboat forums.., I have a feeling the tank is not ventelating properly (Good Call JSTUT!) I would have never thought of that.... . I think a vacuum is being created inside the tank cause it to die after its run at full throttle.

One fuel filter was replace. aparently theres a second he missed. Hes replacing that this week.

The dealer supposedly checked the fuel pump, block,all sensors computer.. ect..and it was all ok. I am going to sudgest to my father that if the tank isnt creating a vacuum or teh bulb is good, no leaks ect... then check the fuel flow at full throttle. He will have to get a guage for that but im sure hell manage..

Thanks for the tips..... :) Ill let you know what he finds..

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Well, that's easy to check for; just run the motor at full throttle with the gas cap off...if it still dies out, then it's not vacuum-related.

BTW, did you happen to change fuel lines recently? I once had someone do that, turns out the new line was slightly smaller diameter, caused a fuel-flow restriction.

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Originally Posted by paraflyer

Well, that's easy to check for; just run the motor at full throttle with the gas cap off...if it still dies out, then it's not vacuum-related.

BTW, did you happen to change fuel lines recently? I once had someone do that, turns out the new line was slightly smaller diameter, caused a fuel-flow restriction.

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Not to my knowledge. It is a relatively new engine though. Barely over 100 hours. Maybe when they installed it the original lines are to small for a single 225hp engine. This boat (24' GradyWhite) is originally designed to house 2 smaller outboards. (The tank actually has 2 outputs for a duel setup.)

I tell him to try the gas cap thing and also the fuel lines as well.

Again, thanks for your input :)

*Hands everyone a beer*

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Originally Posted by Diver01

*Hands everyone a beer*

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Make mine a Bombay Sapphire and Schweppe's, and a twist of lime.

Just had a minor brainstorm....but I need to know one thing: Does this engine have full electronic fuel injection?

If so, could be a leaky injector module; easy way to tell is to note the following: is there a big belch of smoke when it's first fired up (as if it's choked or running too rich)?

The "smoke on startup" would be caused by pressurized fuel in the line from fuel pump to injector module leaking after engine shutdown, the fuel would be essentially laying right at the tips of the poppet nozzels (point at which the fuel is injected into each cylinder). Ends up being too much fuel present right at startup.

BUMP.

Any results yet?

How about a bad coil . I had a Truck that would do the same thing run great until you started to push it... Then it would die... If the fuel system is not your problem then it has to be timing or spark... P.S Did you check the Batt ??? Try a different Batt...

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Originally Posted by Escape_Driver

How about a bad coil . I had a Truck that would do the same thing run great until you started to push it... Then it would die... If the fuel system is not your problem then it has to be timing or spark... P.S Did you check the Batt ??? Try a different Batt...

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Battery is Brand New. All the timing and spark, coil, ect.. have been checked by the dealer and seems to be ok.

Im not sure about the injector. To my knowledge, the motor is not smoking on start up. I will forward that question to my father. But I do believe that everything is electronically controlled. The computer was checked and reprogrammed by the dealer as well.

Quick reply from dad:

"No Smoke and batteries and coil have been checked.

I have cleaned plugs replaced both fuel and water separators. Will test this weekend."

*Crossing Fingers* :drink: :drink:

How is the flow of of cooling water ??? Maybe something got sucked into the cooling system blocking it at full throtle ??

It should be ok, I believe that was checked as well. Ill ask him about it though

UPDATE:

All fuel filters and water seperators ect.. have been replaced. The Bulb is brand new. We also ran teh motor on a second temporary tank to eliminate the fuel in the boat and any vacuums being created or leaks. The motor is sill stalling out. The dealership says they can find nothing wrong with the motor. They checked the computer, coil, battery, ect, they say everything is fine.

One thing to note is the plugs are brand new but look fouled already. Im wondering if it could be running to rich? Wouldnt the dealer have found that though when he checked the computer? Any more ideas would be most welcome....

*Bangs head on keyboard*

At this point I hope to get ahold of a technician at Evinrude. This motor is almost brand new and should not be doing this at all... :sad: :sad: :sad: :knife: :guns: :flame:

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Originally Posted by Diver01

UPDATE:

All fuel filters and water seperators ect.. have been replaced. The Bulb is brand new. We also ran teh motor on a second temporary tank to eliminate the fuel in the boat and any vacuums being created or leaks. The motor is sill stalling out. The dealership says they can find nothing wrong with the motor. They checked the computer, coil, battery, ect, they say everything is fine.

One thing to note is the plugs are brand new but look fouled already. Im wondering if it could be running to rich? Wouldnt the dealer have found that though when he checked the computer? Any more ideas would be most welcome....

*Bangs head on keyboard*

At this point I hope to get ahold of a technician at Evinrude. This motor is almost brand new and should not be doing this at all... :sad: :sad: :sad: :knife: :guns: :flame:

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Motors aren't that complicated. A shop with proper test equipment and a decent mechanic should have no problem getting it working for you. Take it to a different dealer.

Just out of curiousity, this dealer that says everything checks out fine, have they tried running the motor at full throttle? Does the motor EVER run proper at full throttle or is this an intermittent thing?

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Originally Posted by imaeditedbysowulo

Motors aren't that complicated. A shop with proper test equipment and a decent mechanic should have no problem getting it working for you. Take it to a different dealer.

Just out of curiousity, this dealer that says everything checks out fine, have they tried running the motor at full throttle? Does the motor EVER run proper at full throttle or is this an intermittent thing?

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The motor ran great at full throttle when the plugs were Brand New. It lasted about 2 short trips.. not even an hour each time out. Now the brand new plugs looked fouled again (BLACK) and it will not go over 3000 rpm and it eventually dies. (I believe the computer is killing the motor somehow cause when you shut it off and turn it back on again, you can go back up to 3000 rpm.. rinse and repeat... )

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Diver01

The motor ran great at full throttle when the plugs were Brand New. It lasted about 2 short trips.. not even an hour each time out. Now the brand new plugs looked fouled again (BLACK) and it will not go over 3000 rpm and it eventually dies. (I believe the computer is killing the motor somehow cause when you shut it off and turn it back on again, you can go back up to 3000 rpm.. rinse and repeat... )

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So it does run well for a short period of time? Hmmmmm...that's a little strange. I'd let another dealer have a look at it. Whatever the cause, chances are that if they didn't find it the first or second time they won't figure it out on the third time either.

If you put brand new plugs in would it last another 2 short trips or would it run like crap still? Maybe somehow water is getting where it's not supposed to when he takes it out.

Well, to see if it's the plugs, fire it up and run it till it bogs down.

Shut down, then immediately put it a set of new plugs (yes, I mean when the engine's still hot, so be careful), fireit up again and take it to speed.

If it doesn't bog down right away, then it's not the plugs. I'm still inclined to think it's fuel-related.

You said the "plugs were black".....dry carbon, or wet and oily?

The plugs are black and dry ( SOOT).

We actually tried your idea already. The plugs that are in there now are brand new. They have less than 5 hours on them. The engine actually ran great for the first hour but as the plugs became more fouled you can tell the engine was starting to struggle

Since the entire system was run on a buddy tank, it seems unlikely that the fuel is the problem. All teh filters and water seperators and the bulb are brand new as well.

The main problem with this motor I believe is the overall design. OMC went out of business because of the handling of the Ram FICHT technology. Bombardier bought OMC in court and fixed the motor. One of the things they did to fix the motor is design a new electronics system to combat plug fouling at low RPM ranges. (Basically the motor is not running hot enough) What I need to find out from Bombardier today is if the electronics in this motor can be upgraded to the 2002 model year. I will be calling there service department at lunch.. :)

Ill keep you all up to date.

thanks for the ideas :drink: :drink: