Bad HDD drive help! Swaping out internals...

Greetings all,

A friend has a WD Caviar 36400 (6.4GB) IDE HDD that is no longer responding. I have the drive now and sometimes the BIOS will recognize it and most of the time it won't. Even when the BIOS recognized the drive it never goes past that stage. Sometimes the drive will not even power up...

The people are not experts (nor am I! :) ) and they didn't have much backed-up and really can't afford the cost of having their data retrieved (anywhere from $350 to $1800) so I am wondering if I could pull the internals and swap them into a similar drive I can get on eBay for about $2.00!

Many years ago I pulled apart a dead drive for the heck of it and saw the driver platter (is that what they call it?) and figure if I could swap it into a working drive I could at least retrieve the data. I'm not looking for long term usage, just enough to pull some personal files off.

If I can't do this... does anyone have any other solutions I could try? THANKS as always...

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Originally Posted by NetScum

Greetings all,

A friend has a WD Caviar 36400 (6.4GB) IDE HDD that is no longer responding. I have the drive now and sometimes the BIOS will recognize it and most of the time it won't. Even when the BIOS recognized the drive it never goes past that stage. Sometimes the drive will not even power up...

The people are not experts (nor am I! :) ) and they didn't have much backed-up and really can't afford the cost of having their data retrieved (anywhere from $350 to $1800) so I am wondering if I could pull the internals and swap them into a similar drive I can get on eBay for about $2.00!

Many years ago I pulled apart a dead drive for the heck of it and saw the driver platter (is that what they call it?) and figure if I could swap it into a working drive I could at least retrieve the data. I'm not looking for long term usage, just enough to pull some personal files off.

If I can't do this... does anyone have any other solutions I could try? THANKS as always...

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Before you do any drive assembly, you might want to read the thread here:
http://forums.windrivers.com/showthr...7&page=1&pp=15

if you can find the EXACT same drive, you might be able to swap out the printed circuit board on the bottom of the case, but do not open the drive!!

Well its not a procedure for the very feint of heart, but neither is it rocket science to actually do it - what you must get though is matched drives & you can only change the controller card bit simply - if that's what you mean as 'internals' ? - but I think you mean platters & spindles from inside it ? - you can try but I think you'll just 'kill it good'. (like I realise Geoscomp just put while I was typing)

You've tried slaving it in another machine ? Swapped cables ? - any message at all or just 'stuck' ? Since it won't power up sometimes you've also checked cabling to & from psu ?

Lots of stuff as well so don't panic yet could yet be more things to try like the freezer trick in case its a stuck spindle etc..

Tell us what you've tried so far to cut down on duplicates & questions ;)

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Originally Posted by geoscomp

Before you do any drive assembly, you might want to read the thread here:
http://forums.windrivers.com/showthr...7&page=1&pp=15

if you can find the EXACT same drive, you might be able to swap out the printed circuit board on the bottom of the case, but do not open the drive!!

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Thumbs Up....WAY UP. Geo.
And yes, -ed. It looks like that is exactly what he wants to do.
And yes, there are other options first. But DO NOT open her up.

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Originally Posted by confus-ed

Well its not a procedure for the very feint of heart, but neither is it rocket science to actually do it - what you must get though is matched drives & you can only change the controller card bit simply - if that's what you mean as 'internals' ? - but I think you mean platters & spindles from inside it ? - you can try but I think you'll just 'kill it good'. (like I realise Geoscomp just put while I was typing)

You've tried slaving it in another machine ? Swapped cables ? - any message at all or just 'stuck' ? Since it won't power up sometimes you've also checked cabling to & from psu ?

Lots of stuff as well so don't panic yet could yet be more things to try like the freezer trick in case its a stuck spindle etc..

Tell us what you've tried so far to cut down on duplicates & questions ;)

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How it happen (as I was told...) the drive was the master in a Gateway system, the drive built in late '98 and it had WIN98 SE on it. Into a new system (home built with XP Home OEM) as a secondary master. They wanted to just pull off the data and put it on the new WD Raptor 36GB SATA... The HDD was seen in the BIOS but by the time XP came up, it was dead!

Here is where I came in, I removed the SATA, CDR and DVDR (primaster master & slave) and tried to boot into WIN98 via the primary & secondary master. At first the drive would not even power up. It was out of the case and after the third try I placed the drive on the desk (I was holding it) and all of a sudden I heard it start up. This time the BIOS would recognize the drive (auto detect) but would hang there. Off and on it would recognize in either IDE port but never go beyond that.

One thing I did notice is after the BIOS recognize the drive, it would then shut down... So I took it to my house where I have a external drive and tried to run it on my secondary master. So far it has not been detected by the BIOS.

Since then I have been sitting on it watching a few eBay auctions... one will close out today for a drive that is only .99 and I figure I could buy a couple to learn what to do then attempt the swap.

WHEW! Sorry so long! I saw your post and Geo's about swaping the board, I never thought about that so if that is what I should do I'll try that... I have no idea what I should start with that is why I'm turning to the pro's here...

Learn me oh great ones! :)

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Originally Posted by NetScum

..WHEW! Sorry so long! I saw your post and Geo's about swaping the board, I never thought about that so if that is what I should do I'll try that... I have no idea what I should start with ..

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.. you don't want to be reading any of my technical reports if you think that's long :D

So what you are describing sounds like some sort of spindle problem (but bear in mind this 'proxy diagnosis via the internet' is only as good as you can tell us & we can 'get it' ;)) - so yeah for the money you can try buying a matched drive & salvaging the controller card - its usually 'common sense' to see how to swap them (hence 'not rocket science' comments earlier) not certain with this one , but worth a shot as 'mostly' the drive isn't ever seen by bios ..

After that we need to move onto probably 'thermal or shock tricks' - DANGER WILL ROBINSON moment ;) - doing these may kill it 'more' ..

The 'Freezer trick' relies on the principle that metal generally contracts when cold & so worn spindles etc can be freed by cooling, so wrap your drive nice & tight in some polythene or similar (airtight & preferabbly with a good dose of them little silicone drying packs for good measure) & place your drive in a deep freeze for a couple of hours - then give it a whirl..

You can do 'similar' by warming it (no need to wrap there though) & that relies on the principle that some metals expand more than others (like in a bimetalic strip like in a fire alarm) - don't warm it above whatever it says on the label is 'maximum operating temperature' - whenever I've tried this I've used a fan heater in a cupboard or hairdryer or whatever - don't microwave it anyway :D

'Shock tactics' is the final resort, usually when you remove the controller you can get easy access to the spindle base or at least its casing, a quick sharp tap here can free the spindle..

None of these things is of course 'recommended' ;) really you need by the sounds of it to go pay for professional recovery in a 'clean room' (thats what you 'need' to take them appart 'successfully' & retrieve data{I have actually done it without 'just about' in that the drive kind of worked but I could only access 1/2 the data having 'really broken' one platter with atmospheric dust or sticky fingers}) & you did ask & all ..

I would recommend the freexer trick while you are waiting on the ebay drives to arrive. Wrap it up tight with silica dessicant packages as said previously. For good measure, let it sit in the freezer all night.

I have had moderate success swapping out the logic boards on hard drives. A note of caution - it has to be the EXACT same board. If the company made a 10d0D2.A and a 10d0D2.B revision of the controller board, all bets are off as to having it detect at all, and you run a decent risk of corrupting the data if it even shows. I have tried a platter swap (Opening up the drives and changing platters) about half a dozen times (last resort) and never had it work correctly.

If the board swap does not work, you can always try dropping it. Hold the drive 6-8 inches above a tabletop, then drop it flat. You could also try a couple good licks to the side with a hammer. It goes without saying that this could screw it up more.

Let us assume that the freezer trick or the drop trick or even the logic board swap works. Assume that you will have a maximum of 20 minutes and one power-up to get the data off the drive. Have a known good drive in the system, and be ready with a copy of Ghost or a similar utility. Time is of the essence, get the stuff off as fast as possible and never use the drive again. Hard drives are cheap and data is expensive.

The expensive data recovery shops should be able to get the data off the drive. Some of them charge per file, or you can specify certain files to try and recover - the price is less than retrieving everything.

Do not disassemble the drive!
It is 3-platters model, so unless you have special equipment, it will be impossible to change platters and place them back correctly... It is possible only with single-platter models!...

Freezer will not help you also - it is not problem with electronics, as I can assume... It is most likely problem with damaged firmware (written on platters no.0 and 1 in hidden area)... It is possible to fix it using PC3000 software/hardware professional HDD repair kit (I have it), but it is written in Russian language only...

You can try another electronics from exactly the same model, but I'm very doubtful what it is problem with electronics, though...

For Ruslan: Would Western digital not be able to send him a flash utility for the firmware (in english!) just for that drive if he asked 'real nice' ? - he says not even having thought about bad drive firmware ..

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Originally Posted by confus-ed

For Ruslan: Would Western digital not be able to send him a flash utility for the firmware (in english!) just for that drive if he asked 'real nice' ? - he says not even having thought about bad drive firmware ..

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Saying about firmware I meant not a "flash BIOS chip update" (which can be downloaded from manufacturer's site for some harddrives for fixing some bugs).
That firmware (I would rather call it software - size could be up to few megabytes!) is located on harddrive itself on so called "cylinders number minus 1 - minus 6" (for WD 36400)). It means what that internal software is located behind "cylinder 0" in inaccessable (by any OS) servozone... but it is accessable by drive's heads and, like any other working cylinder,also can be mechanically damaged... Drive's Configuration sector, containing drive's logical config (number of sectors/cylinders/sectors per track/serial number and so on is also located within "minus 1 - minus 2 " cylinders... So, if that sector is somehow damaged, corrupted or erased - drive will be not seen by BIOS (depends how badly that sector been damaged), although may be still spinning as usual...
Only specially designed software can access this servozone and make changes... and of course, HDD manufacturers are not interested what someone can do something inside the drive... not a secret - any wrong changes, and drive can be lost forever... I killed few drives by myself... :D

Of course, bad electronics can also cause drive will be not seen by BIOS, but from my experience WDs (and WDAC36400 model for instance), are having a quite reliable electronics... It is possible to use electronics from another WD model within the same model "family"... What's this?
Most of WD drives have model codes printed on sticker covering drive's BIOS chip... like, for example :
62-602222-076 ,
where 2222 - family base model (should be the same for all drives within same family,as a rule, they have also compatible electronics),
076 - version of firmware (could be different within same family, but drives may be still compatible at User's lever).
It means, what for that particular family WDAC36400 is the top model (with maximum number of physical platters - 3 and working heads - 6)...
But drive WDAC12100 (with just only one platter and two working heads), but with the same numbers 62-60XXXX-0XX can be having the same (or at least compatible electronics)...

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Originally Posted by Ruslan

Only specially designed software can access this servozone and make changes... and of course, HDD manufacturers are not interested what someone can do something inside the drive... not a secret - any wrong changes, and drive can be lost forever... I killed few drives by myself... :D

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I'd be real interested in this specially designed software of which you speak Rus. PM me please with the info: thanks in advance.https://forums.windrivers.com/images.../2006/04/1.gif

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Originally Posted by Ruslan

Saying about firmware I meant not a "flash BIOS chip update" (which can be downloaded from manufacturer's site for some harddrives for fixing some bugs).
That firmware (I would rather call it software - size could be up to few megabytes!) is located on harddrive itself on so called "cylinders number minus 1 - minus 6" (for WD 36400)). It means what that internal software is located behind "cylinder 0" in inaccessable (by any OS) servozone... but it is accessable by drive's heads and, like any other working cylinder,also can be mechanically damaged... Drive's Configuration sector, containing drive's logical config (number of sectors/cylinders/sectors per track/serial number and so on is also located within "minus 1 - minus 2 " cylinders... So, if that sector is somehow damaged, corrupted or erased - drive will be not seen by BIOS (depends how badly that sector been damaged), although may be still spinning as usual...
Only specially designed software can access this servozone and make changes... and of course, HDD manufacturers are not interested what someone can do something inside the drive... not a secret - any wrong changes, and drive can be lost forever... I killed few drives by myself... :D

Of course, bad electronics can also cause drive will be not seen by BIOS, but from my experience WDs (and WDAC36400 model for instance), are having a quite reliable electronics... It is possible to use electronics from another WD model within the same model "family"... What's this?
Most of WD drives have model codes printed on sticker covering drive's BIOS chip... like, for example :
62-602222-076 ,
where 2222 - family base model (should be the same for all drives within same family,as a rule, they have also compatible electronics),
076 - version of firmware (could be different within same family, but drives may be still compatible at User's lever).
It means, what for that particular family WDAC36400 is the top model (with maximum number of physical platters - 3 and working heads - 6)...
But drive WDAC12100 (with just only one platter and two working heads), but with the same numbers 62-60XXXX-0XX can be having the same (or at least compatible electronics)...

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I am just if freaking awe! Just when I was about to give up on this place, BLAM!
You are incredible, Ruslan! Thanks for being here!

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Originally Posted by Tekboy

I am just if freaking awe! Just when I was about to give up on this place, BLAM!
You are incredible, Ruslan! Thanks for being here!

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Irked Geezer moment : So then you ask folks what they are on about when you don't quite understand what they've put & why & don't slag 'em off !

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Originally Posted by Ruslan

Saying about firmware I meant not a "flash BIOS chip update" ..

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Yeah I knew what you were talking about, the stuff that's generally on the very first bit of any drive - but I don't quite understand this bit ..

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..is located on harddrive itself on so called "cylinders number minus 1 - minus 6" (for WD 36400)). It means what that internal software is located behind "cylinder 0" in inaccessable (by any OS) servozone

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Well erm why not ? Don't those 'regular' self boot disk diags actually read this ? Pressumably you mean a 'regular' o/s like windoze or unix, you can write boot loaders that ignore bios, like the aforesaid disk diags & I'm 'confus-ed-ly sure' that I've come accross utils from disk manufacturers which do just that, though the ones I'm talking about were/are principally for SCSI drives (but other than the interface the actual drive mechanisms are very similar) so pressumably IDE can be 'done' this way too ?

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..Only specially designed software can access this servozone and make changes... and of course, HDD manufacturers are not interested what someone can do something inside the drive..

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So your take & experience tells you that they just don't care ? I've had written explanations back on stuff (returned & replaced or returned & repaired) saying pretty much what you've explained is what they've done for me at the 'factory' ..

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Originally Posted by confus-ed

Irked Geezer moment : So then you ask folks what they are on about when you don't quite understand what they've put & why & don't slag 'em off !

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I simply have no idea wtf you are talking about. Again, I think it is a language barrier thing.

Am I supposed to apologize now for complimenting someone?

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Originally Posted by Tekboy

I simply have no idea wtf you are talking about. Again, I think it is a language barrier thing.

Am I supposed to apologize now for complimenting someone?

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Nope, problems of communication & language differences are common here, look at Ruslan his native language certainly isn't english, but not making cutting comments & misinterpreting intent merely requires thought, not language skills .. ('Just when I was about to give up on this place')

Lets just both put it all behind us shall we ? or if I piss you off so much, just stick me on your ignore list.

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Originally Posted by confus-ed

Well erm why not ? Don't those 'regular' self boot disk diags actually read this ? Pressumably you mean a 'regular' o/s like windoze or unix, you can write boot loaders that ignore bios, like the aforesaid disk diags & I'm 'confus-ed-ly sure' that I've come accross utils from disk manufacturers which do just that, though the ones I'm talking about were/are principally for SCSI drives (but other than the interface the actual drive mechanisms are very similar) so pressumably IDE can be 'done' this way too ?
So your take & experience tells you that they just don't care ? I've had written explanations back on stuff (returned & replaced or returned & repaired) saying pretty much what you've explained is what they've done for me at the 'factory' ..

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Yeah, those Diag utils use some parts of that hidden area in their work - like:
1. Firmware version
2. Serial number
3. Model number
All of these are located in mentioned configuration sector.

4. S.M.A.R.T. table status - some of utils can read it and translate into understandable terms.
5. Defect list table - none of Diag utils made by manufacturer will show you actual number of defects found on surface... :)
For WD Defect Table consist of two parts - P-list and G-list...
P-list has listed defects found during sertification test at the factory - and fixed by manufacturer. Ideally should be empty - but it never happens...
G-list shows grown defects found (and fixed) by using Diag utilities... Originally empty as it comes from manufacturer... Modern drives have so-called auto-reallocate mechanism (usually enabled by default). It means what any found (by drive itself) defects will be fixed without notifying you and substitute sector from the drive's reserve zone will be placed instead of defective one.
Defective sector's number will be placed into G-list.You will not notice any changes as long as there is still place for defective sectors in G-List... But in SMART (if enabled) you will see increased number of reallocated sectors...

Returned drives (Factory-refurbished) are generally those with fixed bad sectors or replaced electronics... So, replaced under warranty drive will be one of these, "tested and re-certified" drives...

Some of third-party diag utils can look inside Defect table - like MHDD v2.90 (works for IBM drives only)... Or HDDSpeed - for Quantum drives...

Now imagine this - if any of and-users can see that defect table right away and say - hey, my HDD is having a lot bad sectors! WTF is going on?! I want defect-free drive! Like any of us,though... ;)
Sorry guys, but that's almost impossible because of modern technology :( - every hard drive has bad sectors! But they are fixed by manufacturers...
And they are avoiding any potential problems by using any possible methods... including hiding sensitive info from us...

Just wonder what information the WD Data Lifeguard diagnostic tools give about this drive.

I think Ruslan said it perfect already:

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Now imagine this - if any of and-users can see that defect table right away and say - hey, my HDD is having a lot bad sectors! WTF is going on?! I want defect-free drive! Like any of us,though... ;)
Sorry guys, but that's almost impossible because of modern technology :( - every hard drive has bad sectors! But they are fixed by manufacturers...
And they are avoiding any potential problems by using any possible methods... including hiding sensitive info from us..

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So: what we get is an error code if the drive fails, And nothing more than a statement that the drive is "good" if it passes "No problems found"....

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Originally Posted by PolderTech

Just wonder what information the WD Data Lifeguard diagnostic tools give about this drive.

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Nothing, I can never get past the BIOS detection stage if that... Right now my best option is a controller swap with an identical drive I just won off eBay! I'll let everyone know how it goes/went later this week :)

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Originally Posted by Ruslan

Yeah, those Diag utils use some parts of that hidden area in their work - like:
1. Firmware version
2. Serial number
3. Model number
All of these are located in mentioned configuration sector.

4. S.M.A.R.T. table status - some of utils can read it and translate into understandable terms.
5. Defect list table - none of Diag utils made by manufacturer will show you actual number of defects found on surface... :)
For WD Defect Table consist of two parts - P-list and G-list...
P-list has listed defects found during sertification test at the factory - and fixed by manufacturer. Ideally should be empty - but it never happens...
G-list shows grown defects found (and fixed) by using Diag utilities... Originally empty as it comes from manufacturer... Modern drives have so-called auto-reallocate mechanism (usually enabled by default). It means what any found (by drive itself) defects will be fixed without notifying you and substitute sector from the drive's reserve zone will be placed instead of defective one.
Defective sector's number will be placed into G-list.You will not notice any changes as long as there is still place for defective sectors in G-List... But in SMART (if enabled) you will see increased number of reallocated sectors...

Returned drives (Factory-refurbished) are generally those with fixed bad sectors or replaced electronics... So, replaced under warranty drive will be one of these, "tested and re-certified" drives...

Some of third-party diag utils can look inside Defect table - like MHDD v2.90 (works for IBM drives only)... Or HDDSpeed - for Quantum drives...

Now imagine this - if any of and-users can see that defect table right away and say - hey, my HDD is having a lot bad sectors! WTF is going on?! I want defect-free drive! Like any of us,though... ;)
Sorry guys, but that's almost impossible because of modern technology :( - every hard drive has bad sectors! But they are fixed by manufacturers...
And they are avoiding any potential problems by using any possible methods... including hiding sensitive info from us...

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Ok , that explains an article I read awhile back claiming you could increase your HDD space , which doesn't sound like a good now . :thumbs2:

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Originally Posted by TripleRLtd

I think Ruslan said it perfect already:
So: what we get is an error code if the drive fails, And nothing more than a statement that the drive is "good" if it passes "No problems found"....

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Exactly! ;)

But the problem is - I've seen so many crappy drives "passed" those Diag tests (from all the manufacturers without exceptions!).

That's why I recommended many times at Windrivers MHDD 2.90 uility for testing harddrives - I believe that's one of the best diagnostic programs for HDD I've ever seen... You'll see drive's actual health status (not just - "passed" or "failed"), and predict drive's failure long time before it actually will happen...
Many times it helped me to solve misterious lockups in Windows in customer's PCs. ( http://mhddsoftware.com/products.shtml )...

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Originally Posted by NetScum

Nothing, I can never get past the BIOS detection stage if that... Right now my best option is a controller swap with an identical drive I just won off eBay! I'll let everyone know how it goes/went later this week :)

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Geoscomp, Confus-ED & Ruslan, THANK YOU VERY MUCH for telling me not to open my friends drive and try a controller board swap first. I did win a eBay acution for an identical drive (for a big total of $17 /w shipping) and the the swap worked perfectly. All 3.6GB of data came off the old drive and my friend couldn't be happier. YOU GUYS ARE GREAT!

The original drive was built in June of 98 and the one I got was from April of 98. Both were made in Malaysia however the controller boards were slightly different in markings... Didn't matter as the BIOS reconized the drive right away and WIN XP had no trouble moving the data over to a temp directory.

Now I am going to put the data back on to the new used drive, burn it to a DVD and make sure my friend knows how to use her new DVD/RW so she can make backups more than just once every five years! :)

So much for the bonehead who said you guys can only help people with spyware... what does he know?

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Originally Posted by Ruslan

Exactly! ;)

But the problem is - I've seen so many crappy drives "passed" those Diag tests (from all the manufacturers without exceptions!).

That's why I recommended many times at Windrivers MHDD 2.90 uility for testing harddrives - I believe that's one of the best diagnostic programs for HDD I've ever seen... You'll see drive's actual health status (not just - "passed" or "failed"), and predict drive's failure long time before it actually will happen...
Many times it helped me to solve misterious lockups in Windows in customer's PCs. ( http://mhddsoftware.com/products.shtml )...

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Netscum glad you got that sorted . :thumbs2:

and Thanks Ruslan for the link . :thumbs:

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Originally Posted by GrandDad

Netscum glad you got that sorted . :thumbs2:

and Thanks Ruslan for the link . :thumbs:

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You're welcome! ;)

Congratulations, Netscum! ;)

Aye!! That is really good news!