OK I got me a tax question for y'all...

This has been a bone of contention with me for many, many years. For one I've seen it as a major abuse and it now becoming a front page issue in Anchorage. In my Virginia days I had/have first hand knowledge of the freakin' abuse. The question is more local oriented towards property tax and that is the exempt status that churches enjoy in most areas of the US.

My "beef", so to speak, is the abuse of this system. Don't get me wrong a church, synagog, chapel, mosque, temple, etc. and the grounds should be exempt, BUT a 5 acre lot downtown that the church owns but does not use does not qualify for the exemption and should be subject to the same levy as everybody else! No Exceptions Period! The same applies for that 10 acre lot out at the lake, or by the seashore, that the church owns and once a year for a week it's used for Vacation Bible Camp, but for the rest of the time it's a nice lot used for purposes that have nothing to do with church activities. Nope your paying the same taxes as John Q. Public!

And don't even get me started on not for profit organizations! :mad:

I am right there with ya

I agree with you 100%, and from what I know the law does as well. The issue appears to be one of enforcement. For what its worth, one of the largest property owners in New York City is Trinity Church. They pay real estate tax on their holdings.

I concur. https://forums.windrivers.com/images.../2006/04/1.gif

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Originally Posted by Major Kong

And don't even get me started on not for profit organizations! :mad:

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As a member of several not-for-profit organizations, I am VERY curious to see why I shouldn't get you started on them...

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Originally Posted by Wayward Clam

As a member of several not-for-profit organizations, I am VERY curious to see why I shouldn't get you started on them...

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Something exact rules apply, but in my for instance I'm thinking more along the lines of NP's such as what Blue Cross/Blue Shield was trying to pull in Washington and Alaska.

Ah. Well, I'll be the first to admit I have no idea what you're talking about. What's the story?

I think that they should be partially tax exempt. For example they should pay property tax or other tax equal to the amount of services they receive. For example the fire department will come put out a fire yet they don't pay for that service. If they don't pay any taxes at all and receive government services they are being funded by the government and the people of this country.

If you tax a church, then there goes the seperation of church and state. If they pay taxes of any sort, then they will have the right to have official lobbyists to protect their interests.

Would it be ok for a church to own things like apartment complexes? I heard that one specific church denomination owned dozens of apartment complexes around my city, but have no idea if that's true or not. I've been kinda curious ever since.

I just thought about this. Don't not-for-profits pay things like property taxes? They don't pay for things like sales tax and any profits are non-taxable? Isn't it only religious groups that don't pay?

This may have a bearing on the problem:

from a recent Forbes article

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Since its early days, the Christian church has been one of the largest landowners in the world. This property traditionally includes not just churches and related structures, such as convents, bishops' palaces and schools, but also non-related structures and real estate.
Similar to charities and most nonprofit organizations, churches are tax-exempt, which means that unlike other residential landowners, they are not required to pay property taxes on their many mansions, retreats or land parcels. That doesn't apply, however, to commercial property not used for church purposes, nor does it apply to income that may be generated by commercial property (unless that income is used for church purposes, it gets taxed).


Even dioceses that aren't in as much legal and financial trouble are sitting on large piles of real estate. The Archdiocese of Miami, for example, owns the titles to more than 100 pieces of property and has established several nonprofit real estate companies to manage the properties. Mary Ross Agosta, a spokeswoman for the Archdiocese of Miami, tells this anecdote: "In 1958, when the Archdiocese of Miami was first created, the Bishop [Coleman F. Carroll] would literally get into a small plane, fly around the state and say, 'We need to buy land there and there,' depending on where he felt the population would grow." (Agosta adds, however, that many of those properties are schools, nursing homes and so forth.)

Similarly, the Archdiocese of Providence in Rhode Island reportedly operates more than 220 corporate subsidiaries and $44 million worth of real estate, including the Aldrich Mansion, where the Brad Pitt movie Meet Joe Black was filmed. The Aldrich Mansion, built in 1896, sits on 75 acres on Narragansett Bay and was the setting for Abby Aldrich's 1901 wedding to John D. Rockefeller Jr.

In May, Cardinal Francis George of the Archdiocese of Chicago publicly said he might consider selling his mansion, a luxurious brick estate located in the upscale Gold Coast neighborhood, in order to raise funds to help pay for sex abuse lawsuits. The well-preserved property, built in 1885, is said to be worth well over $10 million, and it includes large landscaped gardens, 19 chimneys and a coach house, and has two entry facades. An archdiocese spokesman says the cardinal was just expressing his wish for a simple life and was not serious about actually selling the property.

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Not sure exactly where the line is drawn, but non-profits and certain not-for-profits don't pay real estate taxes, at least in New York. (I believe this is a matter of local law). Property has to be used by the entity for an exemptible purpose - they can't rent it out or run a for-profit business.

ima - churches can own investment property (like apartment complexes) but generally must pay property taxes.

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Originally Posted by geoscomp

This may have a bearing on the problem:

from a recent Forbes article

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I say tax the **** out of them

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Originally Posted by Cleetus

I say tax the **** out of them

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Tax'em all. Let the IRS sort'em out.

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Originally Posted by Cleetus

I say tax the **** out of them

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Sure why not? Then they will be able to have the LEAGAL right to have representation in politics. Would you really really want to have the Catholic Lobbyist Group buying politicians like the RIAA or Microsoft does?

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Originally Posted by Jediab

Sure why not? Then they will be able to have the LEAGAL right to have representation in politics. Would you really really want to have the Catholic Lobbyist Group buying politicians like the RIAA or Microsoft does?

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Excuse me? since when doesn't the Catholic Lobbyists group use all the same tools that every other lobbying group does?

http://www.ou.org/public/news/charitgiv03.htm

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Originally Posted by geoscomp

Excuse me? since when doesn't the Catholic Lobbyists group use all the same tools that every other lobbying group does?

http://www.ou.org/public/news/charitgiv03.htm

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You are excused. :thumbs:

That article is talking mostly about taxing donations. Not taxing the religious establishment themselves.

I am talking about taxation without representation. The lobbyists are behind the scenes sort of speak. If they ever tried to go to the forefront right now in the roll of lobbyists as people know them to be, there would be an outcry of seperation of church and state. If the church is taxed, that seperation will be disolved. Then all religions will have the right for FULL representation. Such as, "We will vote for you if you support the right for prayer back into schools. Here is a bunch of money."

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Originally Posted by Jediab

You are excused. :thumbs:

That article is talking mostly about taxing donations. Not taxing the religious establishment themselves.

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Oh. I see.

And just where did you suppose the religious establishments were GETTING 100% of their income from? :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Jediab

You are excused. :thumbs:

That article is talking mostly about taxing donations. Not taxing the religious establishment themselves.

I am talking about taxation without representation. The lobbyists are behind the scenes sort of speak. If they ever tried to go to the forefront right now in the roll of lobbyists as people know them to be, there would be an outcry of seperation of church and state. If the church is taxed, that seperation will be disolved. Then all religions will have the right for FULL representation. Such as, "We will vote for you if you support the right for prayer back into schools. Here is a bunch of money."

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Actually that article was talking about lobbying groups applying pressure

Screw the churches, tax the crap out of them

Yeah, let's tax PACs and election funding, too. Money would be better spent on something other than the two idjits running for office.

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Originally Posted by paraflyer

Yeah, let's tax PACs and election funding, too. Money would be better spent on something other than the two idjits running for office.

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Sir, can I buy you a beer

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Originally Posted by Wayward Clam

Oh. I see.

And just where did you suppose the religious establishments were GETTING 100% of their income from? :rolleyes:

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If you actually went to a church you might know that one.

Okay Jediab, oh enlightened one. Please tell me where the Church gets money from, besides donations. All I can think of is yard/cookie/rummage sales and I can't imagine they make much from those... but then I don't ATTEND church, so it's physically impossible that I could know even the basic facts about it.

Folks I'm just talking property taxes here. Nothing more, nothing less.
Clammy as to your question in re to Church income that sorta is the point of my rant. Should a church be able to hold "private property" and make a profit off of it and it not be church related (apartment complexes, businesses, land that is leased out to other businesses)? In VA I have seen this abused by folks like Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson. I've also seen the same in AZ and AK. Now it seems that some State and Local revenue folks are starting to crack down.

Oh and Clam just to help out a little...depending on the denomination the church will get money from the individual foundation they are affiliated with. Needless to say some foundations and organizations are much better heeled then others.https://forums.windrivers.com/images.../2005/03/1.gif