Creating a AMD based computer

Hi there
I am currently in the closing stages of purchasing components for a computer which I am building.
Noo Noo had recommended a software called Antemedia Bandwith Manager (http://www.antamedia.com/bandwidth-manager/) and none of my crash boxes seemed worthy of the task.
It was the results of my looking to control my traffic volume based on ip http://forums.windrivers.com/showthread.php?t=82619

I have fallen away from current technical advances and spoke to a local computer store on what he would recommend for components.
I told him I was looking for an all in one motherboard to save money, that was going to be a workhorse.
Hi end video, sound etc were unimportant. (The reason for the expensive Antec Sonata lll is because I have muscle weakness and bad manual dexterity. The drives look like they would be easier to work with)
His recommendations are:
MOTHERBOARD
Asus M3A78-EM AMD780G+ATISB700 2PCI/1PCI-E 16X,4D.DDR2. SATA2
CPU
AMD A645600+ AM2 X2 BOX (2.9 GHZ, 1MB CACHE)
RAM
KINGSTON 2GIG 800 MHZ DDR2 NON ECC CL5 DIMM (1 STICK) KVR800D2N5/2G
CASE
ANTEC SONATA III WITH 500 WATT POWER SUPPLY
HARDDRIVE
SEAGATE 500GIG 16 MB CACHE 7200 SATA
DVD BURNER
LG GH22NS30 SATA 22X/22XDVD-RW

I have some hesitations on the motherboard and hardrive.
I am worried about so few PCI/PCI-E slots as well as the fact it is an AMD.
I price checked on the Seagate and I can get a Western Digital 500gig Sata2 , from another supplier, for the same money (WD5000aaks) I believe the cache on that one is 32 mb.

Another question that seems to have come up:
Will I be able to install my Windows XP Professional (32bit) operating system on this 64 bit motherboard? Will it run fine?
Does windows have a limitation running more than (approx) 3.2 gig's of ram? I have been told not to load more that 2 sticks of 2 gig ram.
If I haven't asked an obvious question concerning this setup please step forward and point it out.:wave:
Thanks for your time

Ummm you don't need much of a machine at all - it's basically going to be a router. Anything that has two decent network cards in it will do if it's not going to be running anything else.

But to your questions

RAM 32bit operating systems don't have enough addresses to see more that 3.5 gigs of RAM. So you can put all the ram the motherboard can use it, but XP won't be able to use it.

Yes your 32bit operating system will run fine on an AMD 64bit chip.

AMDs make great machines, don't worry.

Again, why a 500 gig drive for a router? Are you intending this box do anything else?

Power supply - ALWAYS buy a good powersupply regardless of your abilities. The power supply must be able to supply clean power at certain specifications all the time. This is more critical than your choice of motherboard!

Finally, so few pci/pci-e slots... why is this a concern? What else is this box going to do?

You need one pci slot for another network card - I would suggest you get a gigabit card to match the speed of the onboard network (lan).

If you post what you intend to use the box for, I can be a bit more specific. Personally, if it was just to use the routing software for your guests, I would shove it on an older 2ghz (or there abouts) box with two new network cards in it.

I would agree with NooNoo that's way overkill for a router box.
All AMD chips are 64 bit and 32 backwards compatible fully.
As to the seagate/WD there isnt much of a choice.
Seagate is the number one drive for reliability +warranty.
Check your warranty lengths. All Seagate are 5 years. Only some WD are.
If all its going to do is be a router to control traffic, what would you need a 500 gig for?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NooNoo

Ummm you don't need much of a machine at all - it's basically going to be a router. Anything that has two decent network cards in it will do if it's not going to be running anything else.

But to your questions

RAM 32bit operating systems don't have enough addresses to see more that 3.5 gigs of RAM. So you can put all the ram the motherboard can use it, but XP won't be able to use it.

Yes your 32bit operating system will run fine on an AMD 64bit chip.

AMDs make great machines, don't worry..

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Okay... Thank you for confirming the Ram, 32 bit, and AMD questions.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NooNoo

Again, why a 500 gig drive for a router? Are you intending this box do anything else?.

---

Maybe.


How many times have I (or yourself for that matter) built a computer basically for a specific job and you find more and more things that it can be used for. If not the first time you built it maybe down the road if you planned well some parts can come in handy later.
I built a router many years ago with 2 ethernet cards in it. It was made completely of used parts from earlier upgrades. It lasted years until I noticed some clicks and popping coming through when I was listening to music on Live365.com
It was a P120 with 32megs of ram on Windows 98se on a very generic motherboard. It's only job was routing. It didn't have to deal with any other computers than our own.
When I replaced it with my first dlink I decided to take the old P120 and turn it into data storage of old movies etc on my network. It lasted a couple of weeks (think the power supply was too weak and it basically said goodbye) So I totally agree with your next statement.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NooNoo

Power supply - ALWAYS buy a good powersupply regardless of your abilities. The power supply must be able to supply clean power at certain specifications all the time. This is more critical than your choice of motherboard!.

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Would 500 Watts be big enough to handle 3 megs of ram, 5 sata harddrives, usb scanner, pci printer card etc.?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NooNoo

Finally, so few pci/pci-e slots... why is this a concern? What else is this box going to do? .

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What is it going to do?
Well the imagination can run wild. At this moment I can forsee it being used to copy a DVD now and then. I also have a WinTV PVR USB by Hauppauge which I have never used (unlike the 8500 DVI by ATI in the Asus P4B in the livingroom) and I will probably transfer the 10 Hi 8 tapes from our Australian Vacation to digital files on some harddrives or DVD's.
I do know that in the past you never seem to have enough pci slots for to add harddisc controllers, printer ports, usb or someother new technology that comes along.

I guess you could call it Old School "It's usually best to have too many than not enough"

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NooNoo

You need one pci slot for another network card - I would suggest you get a gigabit card to match the speed of the onboard network (lan)..

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I really feel bad saying this and not to find fault but it was recommended when I did my first router to use dissimilar cards so you know which was which when you went to configure them. Easier to identify. (sorry didn't mean to be rude)
My network is 10/100 and the modem will only go 6 mgbts.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NooNoo

If you post what you intend to use the box for, I can be a bit more specific. Personally, if it was just to use the routing software for your guests, I would shove it on an older 2ghz (or there abouts) box with two new network cards in it.

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I need to create a computer relatively quickly that would be reliable and strong in case whatever traffic was travelling through it was able to fight whatever restrictions I tried to impose via the software. I have seen my routers do battle with the traffic that some of these kids try and pull through it. To the point I could no longer communicate with the router without unpluging the network line from the bridges. One time I even tried to reset one of the bridges to default and couldn't until I disconnected the antenna. TRUTH NO LIE. They are good kids and they do keep the computers virus and spyware free. But some of there programs are aggressive. One of the kids mentioned one called Thunder and I know he has got a couple of other aggressive ones based in China. Anyway...

Budget wise I am in the middle of rebuilding the whole basement of the main house and money is ....tight. So the all in one aspect appealed to me.
I looked over another old box that I could of used but I can't afford to waste my time (and money) on something that could just die.

What else will it be used for? Damn I don't really know.
Probably another teaching tool for me at the very least. (I started playing with Virtual PC and might check out Virtual Server. Everything is pretty much self taught with some outside input here and there.)
The box could end up being used to hold various harddrives for data. So it could be a server.
It could become a central point bridging two internal networks together for file sharing of movies internally. So they can be stored on a central place accessible from both houses.

One of my guests is trying to get me addicted to some first person shooter game and I might use it to play on line... lol

Over the years I have learned to try and build for future expansion. From my limited persective on technology trends I was unsure how to see this board in relationship to future growth.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ferrit

I would agree with NooNoo that's way overkill for a router box.
All AMD chips are 64 bit and 32 backwards compatible fully.
As to the seagate/WD there isnt much of a choice.
Seagate is the number one drive for reliability +warranty.
Check your warranty lengths. All Seagate are 5 years. Only some WD are.
If all its going to do is be a router to control traffic, what would you need a 500 gig for?

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Oh... Ferrit Thank you for mentioning about the Seagate versus Western digital.
The reason I mentioned it is the seagate had less cache (16) as well as was sata for the same money as the Western Digital (32) and was Sata 2.
Maybe I will dig a little deeper on other sources for a better Seagate. Thanks for the vote of confidence.
As to why 500gig please refer to earlier reply to Noo Noo:wave:

I don't plan on limiting it to just a traffic controller.

Thanks for your input

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Smokin Joe

Maybe.


How many times have I (or yourself for that matter) built a computer basically for a specific job and you find more and more things that it can be used for. If not the first time you built it maybe down the road if you planned well some parts can come in handy later.
I built a router many years ago with 2 ethernet cards in it. It was made completely of used parts from earlier upgrades. It lasted years until I noticed some clicks and popping coming through when I was listening to music on Live365.com
It was a P120 with 32megs of ram on Windows 98se on a very generic motherboard. It's only job was routing. It didn't have to deal with any other computers than our own.

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My point would be that this box may be able to do other jobs, but you need to think about whether it should do other jobs. If you have a box designated (in this case) as a router which is serving 5 paying guests, you need that box to have as much up time as possible. Therefore increasing the number of roles the box has increases the possibility of downtime for your guests.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Smokin Joe

Would 500 Watts be big enough to handle 3 megs of ram, 5 sata harddrives, usb scanner, pci printer card etc.?

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That would depend on the video card you chose - based on what you have said so far, probably not.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Smokin Joe

What is it going to do?
Well the imagination can run wild. At this moment I can forsee it being used to copy a DVD now and then. I also have a WinTV PVR USB by Hauppauge which I have never used (unlike the 8500 DVI by ATI in the Asus P4B in the livingroom) and I will probably transfer the 10 Hi 8 tapes from our Australian Vacation to digital files on some harddrives or DVD's.
I do know that in the past you never seem to have enough pci slots for to add harddisc controllers, printer ports, usb or someother new technology that comes along.

I guess you could call it Old School "It's usually best to have too many than not enough"

---

What your describing here could be lock up city for your guests. You go out leaving it rendering a video for the day, it locks up and your guests can't get online... worse, they are students and the assignment they need to research is due tomorrow (which it will be, trust me, been there done that). How popular are you going to be with your paying guests?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Smokin Joe

I really feel bad saying this and not to find fault but it was recommended when I did my first router to use dissimilar cards so you know which was which when you went to configure them. Easier to identify. (sorry didn't mean to be rude)
My network is 10/100 and the modem will only go 6 mgbts.

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I said: " I would suggest you get a gigabit card to match the speed of the onboard network (lan).."
Absolutely nothing about getting the same chip or make!! The likelihood of you buying a pci card with exactly the same chip is small.

The idea of having too much capacity in the router box is a good one since the technology for delivering broadband increases the bandwidth all the time. The important thing was to match the speed, so there is no perception of a slow nic and a fast one.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Smokin Joe

I need to create a computer relatively quickly that would be reliable and strong in case whatever traffic was travelling through it was able to fight whatever restrictions I tried to impose via the software. I have seen my routers do battle with the traffic that some of these kids try and pull through it. To the point I could no longer communicate with the router without unpluging the network line from the bridges. One time I even tried to reset one of the bridges to default and couldn't until I disconnected the antenna. TRUTH NO LIE. They are good kids and they do keep the computers virus and spyware free. But some of there programs are aggressive. One of the kids mentioned one called Thunder and I know he has got a couple of other aggressive ones based in China. Anyway...

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This is quite possibly the best reason ever to justify making this box only do routing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Smokin Joe

Budget wise I am in the middle of rebuilding the whole basement of the main house and money is ....tight. So the all in one aspect appealed to me.
I looked over another old box that I could of used but I can't afford to waste my time (and money) on something that could just die.

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Replace the power supply and put two nics (speed matched but dissimilar makes) in it - the likelihood of it dying is no better than a brand new box going phutt at an inconvenient time.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Smokin Joe

What else will it be used for? Damn I don't really know.
Probably another teaching tool for me at the very least. (I started playing with Virtual PC and might check out Virtual Server. Everything is pretty much self taught with some outside input here and there.)
The box could end up being used to hold various harddrives for data. So it could be a server.
It could become a central point bridging two internal networks together for file sharing of movies internally. So they can be stored on a central place accessible from both houses.

One of my guests is trying to get me addicted to some first person shooter game and I might use it to play on line... lol

Over the years I have learned to try and build for future expansion. From my limited persective on technology trends I was unsure how to see this board in relationship to future growth.

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Really, now you are scaring me. Just make a router box and buy the new box to do all of this other stuff. It doesn't even need a monitor/keyboard since you can remote straight into it. Stick it on a shelf out the way (with plenty of air space around it) and just let it run. I would even turn off automatic installation of updates so I can control when the machine gets rebooted.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NooNoo

My point would be that this box may be able to do other jobs, but you need to think about whether it should do other jobs. If you have a box designated (in this case) as a router which is serving 5 paying guests, you need that box to have as much up time as possible. Therefore increasing the number of roles the box has increases the possibility of downtime for your guests.


What your describing here could be lock up city for your guests. You go out leaving it rendering a video for the day, it locks up and your guests can't get online... worse, they are students and the assignment they need to research is due tomorrow (which it will be, trust me, been there done that). How popular are you going to be with your paying guests?..

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Very Good Point Thank you

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NooNoo

I said: " I would suggest you get a gigabit card to match the speed of the onboard network (lan).."
Absolutely nothing about getting the same chip or make!! The likelihood of you buying a pci card with exactly the same chip is small.

The idea of having too much capacity in the router box is a good one since the technology for delivering broadband increases the bandwidth all the time. The important thing was to match the speed, so there is no perception of a slow nic and a fast one..

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I will definitely match the speeds

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NooNoo

Really, now you are scaring me. Just make a router box and buy the new box to do all of this other stuff. It doesn't even need a monitor/keyboard since you can remote straight into it. Stick it on a shelf out the way (with plenty of air space around it) and just let it run. I would even turn off automatic installation of updates so I can control when the machine gets rebooted.

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I will probably have to get back to you on the remote configuration as I haven't had the need/opportunity to deal with that type of situation.

Just to sum up for the moment I will be going back to the drawing board and probably end up buying a new board/chip (because anything I have is really,really slow and couldn't handle xp). A much cheaper box with a new power supply (I have nothing of the current architecture).

Thanks for all the help Noo Noo & Ferrit
I will have to get back to you:wave:

For what you need a p3 1ghz with 2 nics and at least 512mb but preferably 1gb ram would do fine.

Nothing I have kicking around here is that strong.
Thanks

So what have you got?

It will run on a windows 98 box!

Trust me it's junk all junk
I have a 386 amd motherboard with 8 megs of ram sitting in a box (from my very first computer) Isa slots
I also have an amd based computer (I think) I have never had apart. I did get it to run and I think it has 32 mgs ram.
Not sure about the architecture. I actually thought about using it the other day. I dragged it out set it on the bar, had a pitcher of beer while I waited for it to boot up. It is running 98se. (Incase you were wondering) I was actually able to get it to boot up after reseting a thing or two in safe mode. Really not interested in trying to do anything with it beyond removing components if the need arises.
I have absolutely no documentation or drivers on it because it came from a prior guest from Europe. We built him a much better one and he threw this away.
I really don't feel safe trusting it's reliablity.
Remember how popular you said I would be if I locked the guests out of the internet for awhile.

I have a fully functional TX97 P233 with MMX which I built using the original 386 tower. That sits behind me and is my faxmachine scanner, print server (2 printers), and television (ati all in wonder). It is connected to my home network.
I don't dare touch it because I think it might be the hub and backbone of my office. lol

I am currently using a D810 Laditude from Dell. (Notebook and only computer I haven't built myself although I will take credit for changing the memory as well as the internal harddrive)
Thank god for the online service manual because the second stick went under the keyboard.

The livingroom computer is a P4B with the 8500 Radeon I was telling you about with an Audigy soundcard. It has a couple of extra do dads hooked up on the pci slots (external usb's, promise raid cards for extra ide drives) as well as an extra cooling fan I zap strapped in place. It is in an Antec box.
Now I am starting to wonder about the power supply???? I will leave that for another time.

Anything else has either been given away, thrown out or bleewwed up.
I do have an empty computer case, floppy disk drives, ide drives, cd rom drives etc.
Eithernet cards wired and wireless.
Geese is this starting to sound like a buy and sell listing.


Trust me I really have been listening to you and Ferrit.


Noo Noo aside from the Memory these following items were the absolute cheapest components they had on their price list


Asus p5b-vm se motherboard,
e2200 Intel Pent D-Core2.2 1m chip (retail box)
Irwin Z589T MicroATX with a 350watt power supply (if you think I should I can upgrade it to a Xion generic 450 watt I have which is new)
2 gig strip of ram (ok that's extravagant I know you said 1gig)
I just put a deposit on them hopefully they will be here Friday. Normally I am not home at this time but I really don't feel well today.

I plan on using one of my ide harddrives, a cd rom and anything else I need from parts I have laying around.

The prospect of setting it up and not having to use a monitor, keyboard or mouse is very appealing and probably will be challenging.

Any hints at this point so I will have time to wrap my mind around it?

Make sure the bios is set to halt on NO Errors. Otherwise when you remove the keyboard after setting it up, it won't boot... You know the message - no keyboard attached, press f1 to continue...

Otherwise set it up with keyboard and screen. Check you can remote into it and then remove the keyboard, mouse and screen and remote in again. Then you are good to go. I had a P3 450 running like this for 3 years.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NooNoo

Make sure the bios is set to halt on NO Errors. Otherwise when you remove the keyboard after setting it up, it won't boot... You know the message - no keyboard attached, press f1 to continue....

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Sounds familiar... lol
That part I can understand.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NooNoo

Check you can remote into it

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Can't say I have run accross a setting for that.
AND once it has been checked ...
How does one proceed to remotely access it?
Set a fixed ip??? and access it on the network???
These are rough guess's here.
Oh I haven't actually put it together yet, still looking thru the manual etc.
Wondering if I should upgrade the PSU
Thanks for all the input.:wave:
Oh Maybe I should change the title to scrapping together an Intel....lol

Depends on the operating systems in use. With both using XP, XP Pro has the ability to remote into another XP box here is some instructions

XP home is a little more tricky and the recommendation in the article to use ultravnc is a good one. I expect others will chime in with their proferred Remote desktop software too.

Thank You
I am and will be running XP Pro sp3
This will probably take much more time than expected but I think I should have it running before the weekend is over. It is sitting there waiting to be connected to the monitor etc
I gave the instructions a quick read through and I noticed you were online at the moment ...
Once the monitor and keyboard are removed and it boots up on the network (before it is actually a router) If I have forgotten to install a program or if I wish to copy anything to the router box can it be easily moved between the two computers or will I have to turn sharing on to the harddisk of the remote computer?
I guess the silly thing is I see it as being difficult to access because the monitor and keyboard are removed. Just a phobia I am sure.

and ......the wife just called me to dinner:wave:

You will need to turn on sharing to the appropriate folders and make sure that only you have access to those folders - so remove "everyone" from the security tab for the folder.

Okay
Just ran into my first problem
System together
Generic monitor
Generic keyboard mouse etc
e2200 dual core
p5b-vm se
Master set to master and in proper cable position
Mastor 915s1u3 (non system hd with old movie files already backed up) 14 gig ide
Slave CDrom CDM-P523
Trying to boot from Cd for to install os using Original Win xp
Error message "can't find ntldr"
Used a diagnositic cd and it responds (never fully ran it just testing it had no file named ntldr)
Tried a Unbuntu live cd....no response at all ..(I have the halt error F1 prompt turned off.) in bios
Hunting for solutions
Not sure what is up

Got a newer CD drive?
Got a SATA HDD?

I was just thinking the cd drive might be faulty
Tried to run the diagnostic cd that it started to read earlier and it too started to have a problem finding files.
I was just going to see if I could find another cd rom
Sata drive/anything ?
Nope

I did run a cd rom cleaner on it already in case you were wondering

You need another cd drive.. or possibly change the ide cable... Had one go faulty on me today!

Well I went thru my pile of old stuff
Found a 50x rom that was in the old amd I was telling you about from Europe and it seems to be installing from the xp cd

great stuff

Damn
Somehow I clicked on the wrong link and unsbscribed from this thread
I was going to let you know I was having a problem with installing the audio driver
I didn't plan on using it but if it is a problem with the board I would hate to find I was out of luck way down the road.
It should install properly it is new.
Noo Noo If you have access to "resubscribe" me to this thread please do it.
If you know how to have me do it please let me know

Just because something is new, doesn't mean it will install properly!

Easiest way to resubscribe is to turn off email subscription in your control panel, apply it, logout, login and then turn it back on again... but if you unsubscribed on the link, the link should be there to subscribe again.

So what is the problem with the audio?

Well the good news is I have been resubscribed.
Yeah!
Bad news I miss diagnosed a failure of the old cdrom drive.
You are so going to laugh


:o Important Note :(

Always remove any little logos that get shipped inside a cd case before you start using them because they can accidently get themselves inside the cdrom drive.

Too funny

The drive had a badly bent pin (swashed) when I removed the drive from the other computer. (This is the one I never had taken apart before) Bent it straight and it was slightly shorter. The drive worked fine until it wouldn't be recognised in the bios on bootup or the door wouldn't respond after I started to reinstall the system drivers.
OBVIOUSLY the pin is too short and this drive is untrustworthy and a waste of time. (Wrong)
Ide cable was fine and after I had removed the drive and thrown it in the scrap metal bin outside. (It was raining.) I noticed on cleanup the Asus Powered logo was missing.
Guess where it was!
Ahhhhggg
I will probably grab a new cd rom on Monday
Hope your weekend is going well Noo Noo

Oh yeah Audio ....bus
There was a yellow explanation mark on one of the sound devices in hardware manager HD Audio bus
The manual for the board said to install the latest service pack before installing the system drives. So I installed SP2 as well as SP3 and it was at this point the system driver refused to install,uninstall, reinstall, update, or etc.
The system cd resulted in a failure of the audio driver installation. I didn't see a readme on the disk but I just found a Hotfix.txt that says the HD Audio Bus has a time bomb and will quit working if you use SP1 or an earlier 64bit version of XP and mentions download sites to fix it. It says later versions have the fix already.
??? I was using 32 bit SP2 & SP3 ???
I uninstalled sp3 and the yellow exclamation was gone. I even think the line describing the HD Audio bus was gone as well.
Anyway I was reistalling the system cd because of new exclamations on other drivers due to the uninstall of SP3 and well the cd drive started to fail and be unresponsive.........Door wouldn't open on command.........Check the ribbon it's good.......MUST BE THAT short PIN. Damn:flame:
I will probably partition and start over since I really haven't installed anything except the OS.
I will install the system cd after Sp2. Then install Sp3. See if that makes a difference. Just have to buy a new drive.
Huuuuuuh:knife:

Install SP3 after the drivers, but before updating to IE7.

Your instructions and help have been awesome.
Again Thank You
(Recapping)
The computer is currently accessible by me remotely. I am doing updates from the Windows website. All drivers installed easily after Sp2.
The monitor took note of the fact that no keyboard was attached but booted up properly.
Now I have to study some manuals and rearrange some networking components.
I would say you have been a Great Help!:wave:

Noo Noo I was somewhat suprised I didn't get a rise out of you on the misdiagnosis of my cdrom.:rolleyes:
I used my External dvd drive to boot and install windows etc.

Misdiagnosis is easy, why pour salt on the wound? :D And what would I say... after all it was a bent pin - not something that can be easily sorted.

Glad you have it all set up.

Yah.... when I noticed the sticker was missing...it took me a few seconds to realise my mistake. Was I ever bummed when I found it.

They say laughter is the best medicine:grin:

Great Help Noo Noo!

You made me think.
You gave me just enough information. And you listened.

Thanks again.:wave:

My pleasure :)