don't flame....cert question about pitching

[ScorpioIlya]

Okay, well everyone has comptia certs..they're all entry level...they're mostly easy to get (cept security+ maybe). I was wondering..those of you who have them.........and have done consulting for small businesses....have you ever used them to justify slightly higher than average rates.....the customer doesn't know better....so have you ever tried to say 'well i'm certified for build outs, server updates, and small business networks, so i'm gonna charge you a bit more..etc).......? Despite the fact that many of them are easy to get, some people (like me), actually wait til they know the information and can basically ace the test, to get theirs (i aced A+, network+, but I waited til I knew the stuff), I think they still hold some value, so has anyone tried to get back $$ on their investment by raising consulting rates?

[+Daemon+]

you can do it, but if it was me walking and they did that to me.. you wont have a sale...

[ScorpioIlya]

But guys, the point is.....this is our industry, and for good or for bad, these are the credentials that it grants us...whether or not they suck, or are easy to get...thats OUR TRADE SECRETS.....and we can't tell the customer (oh other people got this as a joke)...we have to sell ourselves any way we can........don't you think?

[NooNoo]

But guys, the point is.....this is our industry, and for good or for bad, these are the credentials that it grants us...whether or not they suck, or are easy to get...thats OUR TRADE SECRETS.....and we can't tell the customer (oh other people got this as a joke)...we have to sell ourselves any way we can........don't you think?

Trade secrets? Stuff you can learn off the internet with only half a brain? Gimme a break.

If you tied those certs with an electronics degree so you actually understood the hardware and a programming degree so you actually understood the interaction between hardware and software, then you would have "trade secrets".

[ilovetheusers]

FYI - They are not "entry level" certs. You have to study and actually know what you are doing at least somewhat.

As for getting compensation for taking them? Well, you decide. They look great on a resume and they kind of speak for themselves.

[techs]

Heck yes. For example the local Staples charges 69.99 per hour for labor. I point out to my customers they have an unqualified, uncertified person working on their computer. I show them my Aplus id and tell them to always ask to see it from their tech. this has really helped my business.

[Gollo]

Or do what I (and a lot of others I know) do. Charge a fair rate to begin with and you'll not only keep your current business you'll also grow. Just my 0.02

[kato2274]

Or do what I (and a lot of others I know) do. Charge a fair rate to begin with and you'll not only keep your current business you'll also grow. Just my 0.02

I agree with both Gollo on this one. your rate for service should be determined by a lot of factors. I don't think the certs you have should be one of them. the value of your time is perhaps the biggest factor, as is rates of shops and best buys / circut cities in your aread.

Since the baby arrived I do very little side work these days. because my time is more valuable to me now I charge more than I used to. when I had all kinds of time on my hands and enjoyed fixing computers more than I do now I charged around $20/hr. would reload systems for $40, didn't mind going onsite etc.

Now if you want me to fix your computer it's $40/hr (a little less if you are close family or friends) if I do a format & reload it's $125. . . . .but when I do it windows is updated with all current patches, I install 3rd party software that the customer needs, install peripherals like scanner printer cameras, configure internet connections, move data, favorites, and OE email off the c: partition then ghost machine and make bootable floppy and CDs to restore the machine. and I do most work, including reloads from my own home. because though the whole process only involves a couple hours of my time hands on at the console, the computer is on doing something - windows updates, unattended windows installs etc for near 4-5 hours - and that's not time I want to spend at someones house even if they have broadband connection.

I'm still cheaper than best buy, staples and the like. mom and pop shops offer some services cheaper - like windows re-installs for $50, but when I explain why I'm over twice as much, detailing all the extra steps I take above and beyond install windows and drivers I never have a problem getting people to pay.

[ScorpioIlya]

I agree with both Gollo on this one. your rate for service should be determined by a lot of factors. I don't think the certs you have should be one of them. the value of your time is perhaps the biggest factor, as is rates of shops and best buys / circut cities in your aread.

Since the baby arrived I do very little side work these days. because my time is more valuable to me now I charge more than I used to. when I had all kinds of time on my hands and enjoyed fixing computers more than I do now I charged around $20/hr. would reload systems for $40, didn't mind going onsite etc.

Now if you want me to fix your computer it's $40/hr (a little less if you are close family or friends) if I do a format & reload it's $125. . . . .but when I do it windows is updated with all current patches, I install 3rd party software that the customer needs, install peripherals like scanner printer cameras, configure internet connections, move data, favorites, and OE email off the c: partition then ghost machine and make bootable floppy and CDs to restore the machine. and I do most work, including reloads from my own home. because though the whole process only involves a couple hours of my time hands on at the console, the computer is on doing something - windows updates, unattended windows installs etc for near 4-5 hours - and that's not time I want to spend at someones house even if they have broadband connection.

I'm still cheaper than best buy, staples and the like. mom and pop shops offer some services cheaper - like windows re-installs for $50, but when I explain why I'm over twice as much, detailing all the extra steps I take above and beyond install windows and drivers I never have a problem getting people to pay.

Sorry, but the 'value' of your time has nothing to do with it......the customer could care less that you have a baby, or that your sister is sick, or anything else that's very important to you...if you just can't spare the time unless you're being paid $100 an hour..you're going to put yourself out of business. Its the market that sets the price...with more qualified labor garnering higher wages....its why nurses with degrees get automatic raises, and why mechanics certified to work on german cars charge higher an hour.

Oh and about certs being worthless..fine.......we can make a case for most things being worthless.....but seriousness is really what counts...For example a 'russian' or 'english' major suggests committment to higher learning, and looks really good for law school. Maybe they're not the hardest degrees, but you have to get one. Same thing with certs...maybe getting A+,network+, etc isn't that hard....(actually I think the whole A+,Net+,Server+,Security+ series can be done in like 3 months of studying), but if you're 'SERIOUS' about IT, you WILL get them....and that's waht the customer should ask. There's no reason the best of you guys shouldn't have these crummy certs......it shouldn't be "Yeah I don't have them, but i'm smarter than you", it should be "Yeah I got them with my eyes closed, 5 years ago...who cares, that's not what makes me the tech I am".

[Cleetus]

or idiots update live working computers?

[ScorpioIlya]

or idiots update live working computers?

I always tuck the cup-holder back inside and put my coffee somewhere else........before I replace that whirly thingie....it hurts my nails sometimes though, with its spinny things....

[kato2274]

Sorry, but the 'value' of your time has nothing to do with it......the customer could care less that you have a baby, or that your sister is sick, or anything else that's very important to you...if you just can't spare the time unless you're being paid $100 an hour..you're going to put yourself out of business. Its the market that sets the price...with more qualified labor garnering higher wages....its why nurses with degrees get automatic raises, and why mechanics certified to work on german cars charge higher an hour.

Oh and about certs being worthless..fine.......we can make a case for most things being worthless.....but seriousness is really what counts...For example a 'russian' or 'english' major suggests committment to higher learning, and looks really good for law school. Maybe they're not the hardest degrees, but you have to get one. Same thing with certs...maybe getting A+,network+, etc isn't that hard....(actually I think the whole A+,Net+,Server+,Security+ series can be done in like 3 months of studying), but if you're 'SERIOUS' about IT, you WILL get them....and that's waht the customer should ask. There's no reason the best of you guys shouldn't have these crummy certs......it shouldn't be "Yeah I don't have them, but i'm smarter than you", it should be "Yeah I got them with my eyes closed, 5 years ago...who cares, that's not what makes me the tech I am".

you're not getting it. I DON'T CARE if the customer values my time. I DO. I work my 7-5 job every day to pay the bills. tech work on the side is just that ON THE SIDE. if people don't want to pay me THAT'S FINE WITH ME. If you don't put a value on your own time, that's your own damn fault, and mighty stupid. the market does indeed set prices. and if the market is $50 and you want to charge $250 then sure you're probably not going to see much business. but if the market for service is $50 and I charge $100 and say "I know you are paying twice as much, but you are getting 3X the quality of service here. here's the things I do better than guy X and paying $100 now means you won't be back in here again and again paying $50."

if you're not valuing your time and just charges $10 less than guy X, you're ripping yourself off. because if you don't mind spending your time doing this thing and think it's worth it to you to do it $20 less than guy X you are going to see a lot more business than just saying "I'll be $10 cheaper" equally if you just say "I'll be $10 cheaper" without thinking if it's even worth it, you could find yourself working on machines and wanting to be somewhere else thinking that it's not worth what I'm getting paid to do it.

and on your other point. certifications DO NOT increase pay. KNOWLEDGE does. a cisco cert may get your foot in the door for an IT interview, but if in the process you show little to no knowledge of cisco routers, and can not answer complex questions because you just crammed for the exam, or took a 2 week test training class, they you aren't getting the job and getting paid more and if you do you're probably not keeping it for long without showing the compentency the cert claims you have. and I'd bet that if someone was looking at two resumes one with CCNA certification and one without, but listed extensive and detailed cisco work experience that both people would probably get interviews and the guy without the cert would probably have the upper hand going in. . . . . . equally if both had the same extensive experience and only one had a cert I'd bet they both got called.

[NooNoo]

Seems that Scorp has no training in quality, quality assurance, quality control. The market gods will decide. If that were true then ECS would have 98% of the market.

[ScorpioIlya]

Seems that Scorp has no training in quality, quality assurance, quality control. The market gods will decide. If that were true then ECS would have 98% of the market.

I tried really hard to actually pose as a devil's advocate, to hear people's opinions, and i didn't even attack anyone....I agree with Kato about how you can charge double for 3x the service, and people will pay, but that's within reason.....and you did re-iterate my point about market deciding the worth of your time....however I guess I can't really relate to 50 bucks/hour not really being worth my time.....I was trying to say that there comes a point where you're too busy to charge an appropriate rate, ASSUMING you're doing the same work, as the next guy, but charging double, because you have other obligations.......Obviously if you can do 3x the quality, you should charge double.....but I"m saying all things being equal.

Oh and NoNoo, there was no need to personally attack me.

And lastly, Kato, your example about 1 person having a cisco cert, and 1 having lots of experience, has been re-hashed many times, and is a valid point..however....i'm talking about certs as an 'extra' thing...not a replacement...........I dont' get why people can't have a normal discussion about certs on here..it just ticks them off......Personally I think everyone who'se worth their salt should go out and get them, so that there ISN"T a case EVER when someone with a cert is more qualified than someone without one....

[kato2274]

however I guess I can't really relate to 50 bucks/hour not really being worth my time.....

hopefully you will someday. . . . I think you will. I can remember those times too. . . . but now, when I am given the choice between a 2 hour job for $100 or sitting on the living room floor with my wife, watching my son play with his toys and take his first awkward steps, or crawl up the stairs like a maniac giggling the whole way up because he thinks I'm chasing him. . . . . well at that point, I just think "It's not worth my time to miss these moments even if it means some extra money. we get by, the bills get paid, we even treat ourselves sometimes. . . . . and it's enough. I do take the odd job here and there and try to work on those when we have a sitter or on weekends when my wife works. the bit I said about quality of service also kind of applys to quality of life for me. some people measure quality of life with money and material items . . . .I don't . . . to me that's more a quantity if you know what I mean.

I know you don't understand . . . and I understand why. I hope you do someday though.