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  1. #16
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    Sounds good to me

    Matridom

    In terms of file system versions the reason why I thought the file systems were slightly different was because of the addition of Junctions and Symbolic links as i mentioned earlier mklink etc... But I guess this is a feature of the operating system and not of the file system and I was looking at the operating system version instead of the NTFS file system version. Which might explain why the file system problems from XP carried over to Windows 7 since the version hasn't been changed. Then this wouldn't be a problem with Windows 7 but a problem more specifically to NTFS.

    Back to the file permissions mystery. I am not sure what causes the files or folders to lose their ACL as I always end up catching the end result. Access Denied when copying files. If I knew how to create this problem myself i'd of told you how by now. That's why I call it a problem because I don't have an answer on how to duplicate it just how to resolve it when it does surface. I think it might have something to do with perhaps a heavy load on the file system when the drive is accessing multiple files at the same time and for some reason it doesn't keep or remember the file permissions on a particular file.

    However, what I can do for next time this happens, I will take a screen shot of the parent folder which will have the proper permissions to indicate that the permissions will apply to all child objects beneth this folder. I will then show you that the child objects will not be inheriting the parent permissions properly and I will take another screen shot of the file or folder which has lost its ownership information so you can see first hand what the problem looks like. Otherwise I will establish a logmein type of remote session with you so you can see first hand what I am talking about.

    I've even had a problem where taking ownership and pushing the permissions failed to work properly in Windows 7. What I had to do was compress the file into a zip file stripping its permissions. Then extracting the file back to the file system just so I could restore the NTFS file permissions. So far I've only seen that once in my life and only in Windows 7 where I actually had to zip a file because the file system would not allow me access to the file. I have also seen this type of permission problem from within the Windows Registry as well in Windows 7. I'm assuming the permission schema is very similiar.
    Last edited by pbolduc; August 11th, 2010 at 06:25 PM.

  2. #17
    Chat Operator Matridom's Avatar
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    My point throughout this whole thing is to not place blame on anything unless you know for sure that it's the cause of your problem and you can back it up with proof. You'll notice that in my examples, if i did not provide proof then and there, I've been able to back it up one way or another. I don't make arguments lightly and i stand by them once made. I have been proven wrong before and i am humble enough to know that i don't know everything. As i said, I'll eat my own pie if needed.

    Screenshots won't prove anything regarding the true source of the problem, they will just prove that you have a problem. I talked to at least 5 other system administrators, one of them even manages the file share server in our Government, and no one had heard of this type of problem just happening.

    You have just stated yourself that you really don't know what is causing the problem but at first, you said it was window's fault, so you just blame the most likely candidate. This is what pissed me off the most; placing blame without cause or proof.

    Let me propose this hypothesis to your problem, I know it's plausible because I've encountered it twice.

    First time: We where moving data from a users local system onto a network share, and where getting many access denied when trying to copy files logged in has local administrator (this was XP btw). We tried different ways of changing the permissions, it would always eventually fail saying that we don't have permission to change the permissions, we tried through the the network, dos, third party utilities, all failed to change the permissions.

    Sound familiar?

    The only degree of success we had was when we mounted the drive on a linux system and we managed to copy 95% of the data. However, Linux was also having issues too, now the real treat here was that linux was telling us the hard drive was getting bad reads. Sure enough, when we ran a diagnostics on the hard drive, it was on it's last leg.

    The second time i encountered this problem was when i was doing a vista upgrade-install from XP and the installer was getting many permission denied errors throughout the install, this seemed very very odd to me as it was an upgrade from XP. In this situation, again, the hard drive was failing. Diagnostics later proved it.

    Out of curiosity, have you ruled out any hardware problems?
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  3. #18
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    Ownership

    Hi Matridom,

    Yes I've ruled out hardware as a problem. This problem is very random and very rare. I find it occurs on an old file system which has been housing files for a long time and over time it seems to degrade if you will. All I know is the associated folders and child objects lose their ownership and the file or folders becomes inaccessible. I'm surprised you haven't seen this type of problem as it seems to be a frequent occurance for me on all different types of NTFS systems. I have seen this problem ever since NT 3.5. So its not like this is a new thing for me. Again it's rare and I am unable to duplicate it or find out what causes it until it happens again in some other random folder. I'll try and be more thorough with my findings next time. Perhaps maybe an anti-virus or defrag is to blame? I'm not sure but i'll definitely watch closer now.

    I did come across a Microsoft Knowledge base article that mentions simliar solutions http://support.microsoft.com/kb/320081
    These systems experiencing these problems are not using encrypted file system and the file system is always an NTFS to NTFS copy function or just a delete function from an NTFS volume.
    Last edited by pbolduc; August 11th, 2010 at 09:09 PM.

  4. #19
    Intel Mod Platypus's Avatar
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    Thank you guys for bringing the discussion back to a respectful professional level - appropriate.

  5. #20
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    Anyway...

    Getting back to the topics at hand here are a few other inconveniences I've noticed.

    1) Windows defrag should not be interrupted by sleep mode or because of a power scheme setting. As it stands if a power scheme kicks in while a defrag has started the defrag will never finish. Reminds me of the Windows 98 days where everything needed to be disabled before a defrag was started.

    2) The ability to not be able to repair Microsoft .NET framework or at least un-install /re-install it without doing a reformat re-install. Does anyone know of a windows 7 third party repair utility for .NET in Windows 7 / Vista?

    Since there isn't a windows 7 repair install you’ll have to either run a restore point or attempt to perform a Windows 7 Upgrade install and hope you don’t lose any of your data aside from doing a format / re-install with data backup.

    3) I will include this in my Windows 7 beefs because IE8 is integrated into Windows 7. I am also posting this not to complain but to share this so that it may also help anyone else in a similar situation.

    So just today I was attemping to print from IE8 to a network printer. Of course I could print a windows test page and an office document from word but the minute I go to print a Webpage in IE8, IE8 freezes and the IE process has to be killed via the task manager and the job never leaves the print spool.

    After digging around on several different forms someone suggested that I disable the "Protected Mode" in IE8. (Found in Internet Explorer > Tools > Internet Options > Security). But I'm guessing this problem might not be with all printers and perhaps just the HP printer I am using therefore this problem may be contributed to a bad HP driver not properly understanding IE's advanced security measures. However I was using the latest driver released by HP. But again that still doesn't say much.

    I also would like to add that I have an HP Scanner that's an amazing scanner but its old. It is not supported in Windows 7 at all. But I just installed Windows XP Mode for windows 7 with the Virtual PC and its associated update. Found here: http://www.microsoft.com/windows/vir.../download.aspx

    After the 3 step install the XP installation automatically detected and found my USB scanner and it was running ontop of windows 7 in a matter of seconds. I would just like to say the addition of XP Compatibility mode and the new Virtual PC is absolutely amazing. No XP key required however you must be an owner of Windows 7 Enterprise, Ultimate or Pro to use this software. I am now deploying this in business environments that still use old software and it gives them 100 percent compatibility with their old software running Windows 7 Business. It is nice to see USB support has been included in this version of the Virtual PC. As Microsoft Virtual PC 2007 SP1 DOES NOT have usb support and cannot co-exist with this new version of Virtual PC from Microsoft on the same computer.
    Last edited by pbolduc; August 12th, 2010 at 05:00 PM.

  6. #21
    Registered User slgrieb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Platypus View Post
    Thank you guys for bringing the discussion back to a respectful professional level - appropriate.
    Why, whatever do you mean? My post was my professional opinion. Haven't read anything to warrant a revision.

  7. #22
    Registered User Guts3d's Avatar
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    I agree about the repair installs; they saved me hours of work over the years. Please, oh Mighty Microsoft, bring 'em back!

    P.S., my two cents, I have been using 7 Ultimate 64 bit and haven't been more pleased since I upgraded from Win95 to 98 SE. ( Remember, if anyone badmouths 98SE I have a right cross headed their way )
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  8. #23
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    Well you got me...

    Honestly, I can't say anything bad about Windows 98SE. That was Microsoft's best Win9x release. It just worked and worked really well a small exception of some PC's that had WDM audio driver problems. But that was a minor inconvenience for the amount of function that it did provide. There's still a soft spot in my heart for that windows platform.

  9. #24
    Registered User Niclo Iste's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pbolduc View Post
    1) Windows defrag should not be interrupted by sleep mode or because of a power scheme setting. As it stands if a power scheme kicks in while a defrag has started the defrag will never finish. Reminds me of the Windows 98 days where everything needed to be disabled before a defrag was started.
    To be honest I haven't trusted defrag to do its job on any MS OS from ME to present. So in my opinion it's a bit late now to even complain about it. However there are other options out there such as IOBits Smart Defrag. I find that Smart Defrag is one faster and two a lot more effective at taking care of fragmented files.

    However this does make me ask one very important question. If you're in the business to fix problems why are you complaining about things instead of finding solutions to negate, repair, or remove the issues?

    If you want to be heard by MS like you said, there are effective ways of doing so. Such as like what I did, which was I had notes on problems and suggested avenues of solution and I presented them to a Microsoft representative at a seminar I went to showcasing the program/OS that I had notes on.
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  10. #25
    Registered User Ferrit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pbolduc View Post
    Honestly, I can't say anything bad about Windows 98SE. That was Microsoft's best Win9x release. It just worked and worked really well a small exception of some PC's that had WDM audio driver problems. But that was a minor inconvenience for the amount of function that it did provide. There's still a soft spot in my heart for that windows platform.


    I certainly couldnt agree with that. It had serious memory leaks which caused reboot after reboot after reboot. To a business computer that meant 1 plus hours of rebooting time each work day . Unacceptable.
    It was a glorious day when they brought out XP and we got rid of 98 of whatever flavor it was
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  11. #26
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    Very Awesome!

    Hi, Niclo Iste,

    Thanks so much, that's exactly what I wanted to see. Someone else placed in similar situations who can offer other free solutions and workarounds. I can't wait to give Smart Defrag a try. In the meantime I was using defragler by piriform. The same people who make the very useful ccleaner program. However, I was finding a defragler defrag would take forever.

    Finding viable solutions is not always an easy task as there are many different flavors of third party software that’s just not practical implementing so it’s really quite nice to be able to discuss these issues with the form community to find what works best instead of trial and error.

    As for me being able to provide Microsoft with a list of problems experienced while using the Operating System one must be familiar enough with the operating system ahead of time. However, every time I attend these conferences on Microsoft’s new product line I’m currently learning about their new products at that time and don’t obviously have any problems with the software because I haven’t used it enough to know what the problems are and what questions to ask. It is only after the fact that I have these questions and by then the Seminar’s are long gone. But I’ll keep that in mind and try to get more involved with the beta releases ahead of time rather than waiting until the product launch date. Thanks again Niclo Iste as your post was very valuable.

    To get back to Ferrit's post about Windows 98 SE. I never ran into those memory problems. However, every night I would have my customers turn off their computer at the end of the day so resources never really got scarcely low. Nothing that a rundll32.exe shell32.dll,SHExitWindowsEx 2 couldn't resolve as a scheduled batch file in the early morning.
    Last edited by pbolduc; August 16th, 2010 at 03:54 PM.

  12. #27
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    Gosh, I just purchased my 1st Windows 7 computer and thought I would learn something new by reading this thread. I have been wondering what I will do with it, it seems I spend more time playing games than anything else. It's a laptop, intended to take the place of my XP system which I plan to repurpose into a linux box and finally learn that. Had no idea what I'd stumbled upon...

    Quote Originally Posted by pbolduc View Post
    ...

    1) Windows defrag should not be interrupted by sleep mode or because of a power scheme setting. As it stands if a power scheme kicks in while a defrag has started the defrag will never finish. Reminds me of the Windows 98 days where everything needed to be disabled before a defrag was started.

    This is not new to 7. Has Microsoft ever fixed their defrag utility?

    2) The ability to not be able to repair Microsoft .NET framework or at least un-install /re-install it without doing a reformat re-install. ...

    Also not exclusive of 7. I have issues with many flavors of .NET. Can't repair, can't uninstall, can't re-install. Can't insall .NET 2.0 if you've already install .NET 3.5, and etc.

    ....
    btw, pbolduc, this forum IS called WINdrivers.
    Last edited by Green_Eyed; August 18th, 2010 at 05:55 PM.
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  13. #28
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    In Reply

    Hi Green_Eyed,

    In reply to your post, Windows Defrag worked extremely well in Windows XP. Infact a third party defrag program wasn't needed it was just a little bit harder to schedule the defrag as it required a vbs script to call the defrag.exe to automate the process. Yes I was happy with the quality and speed of the XP Defrag. Far superior than any other Microsoft Defrag but I believe it was because Microsoft purchased the defrag utility from Diskeeper Corporation. Who the hell knows where they dug up this windows 7 defrag from?

    About your second post regarding .NET Framework. Yes it's a terrible thing that they implemented this into XP. All it does is slow down Windows XP and create lots of problems when installing Windows Update on a fresh install. Of course once there are problems with .NET framework you have to un-install the most recent version all the way back to the oldest version of Microsoft .NET Framework. Followed by a re-install from the oldest versions to the newest in sequential order on a Windows XP PC.

    Everyone knows it's a time sync. But at least Microsoft .NET Framework has an uninstall feature in the add/remove programs in Windows XP. Even though the uninstall rarely works properly the ability is still there.

    Here is the tool I use for windows XP PC's that have a messed up .NET framework causing all sorts of problems. This tool will remove all version of .NET from the computer and clean up installations which fail to be removed properly so you can re-install them correcting any previous problems you have been experiencing.

    However, this tool is not designed for Windows 7. The tool is called: cleanup_tool.exe and it can be found here for Windows XP only:

    http://blogs.msdn.com/b/astebner/arc...30/611355.aspx

    Typically I run this tool after attemping to uninstall all versions of Microsoft .NET first through the add/remove programs in the XP Control Panel. Then I reboot and run this tool which cleans up all the crap that was missed during the MSI uninstall.

    The domain is called windrivers which serves more than just WinDrivers. It is an entire community of support professionals who assist victims with common computer headaches. Which is why the forms are here and the topic in this form happens to be Windows 7 just incase you missed that. Therefore I'm still on topic Green Eyed.

    I'm also still looking for a Windows 7 Microsoft .NET third party repair tool if anyone has found such a beast. I know Microsoft probably already has some sort of repair tool but getting a hold of their tools is next to impossible as they are intended for the internal Microsoft staff and not the general public.
    Last edited by pbolduc; August 18th, 2010 at 07:04 PM.

  14. #29
    Registered User Green_Eyed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pbolduc View Post
    ...Windows Defrag ...

    ...regarding .NET Framework. ...


    ...windrivers ....
    I have not seen Windows defrag work worth a [email protected] in any server product I have supported. Have not yet seen 2008, so I don't know if it's improved.

    .NET is ok when it's working, and will uninstall, if it's working. If it's gone sideways, for what ever reason, there isn't anything you can do with it. Except FAR. And it really irritates me that the GPO MMC will only run on .NET 1.1 and if you install 2.0 you can't install the MMC and you can't install 1.1.

    I only mentioned the name of the forum (not form) so as to remind you why folks might be supportive of Microsoft products.
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  15. #30
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    Nice to know that nothing has changed around here.
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